PSSM: Your Story

SEL said:
A biopsy would tell you whether there were abnormal muscle fibres - they can pick up diseases like mitochondrial myopathy as well as glucose storage disorders. I cant help on price as I didn't need to go down that route.

Equiseq's testing isn't expensive, but you'd need a vet to draw blood for the card you need to send to the US. They are testing for genetic markers in horses who were PSSM1 negative, but showing signs of other muscle disorders. I think they've found 5 markers to date and all except RER seem to point to protein abnormalities.

Lots in the PSSM Facebook forum if you want yo research further.
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Thank you very much for the info! :)
 
SEL said:
Xanthoria - sorry to hear this. The only plus I sometimes think about my mare is that she was given to me free. She was only lightly backed so no one had any idea about her PSSM, but financial investment was minimal even if my emotional investment has been much higher.

Do you think it came down the dam's side? Any siblings with signs?
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Yeah I paid what you'd expect for a fancy weanling in the USA and if he'd not had these issues he'd be worth easily $30k right now, even super green. He's super smart and learns quickly so could probably be a nice dressage horse but cant get him on a trailer due to his issues... he has 2 full siblings, both younger, both sold by the breeder but I don't know if my horse's status was disclosed to them. I also told the US semen importer and she wasn't really interested. Did it come from sire or dam side? No idea. You'd think breeders would test though... I think it should be illegal, or at the very least socially unacceptable to breed a carrier of this, and breeders should be required to test for it, or at the very least buyers need to know to ask for a horse to be tested before they buy it. I wish I'd known.
 
So many thoughtful and observant owners have posted on this thread . I am proud to be a hho member in such company. For me ,the pssm epsm use whatever abbreviation you like, puts me in mind of my long distance running career. Once one starts to get muscle cramps ,seizures , it continues and it gets worse. I strongly suspect that we must treat all genetically prone horses as if they already had the symptoms.So grateful to all who have posted such valuable info.
 
Meredith said:
I know nothing about PSSM so apologies for what may seem silly questions to some.

Where do you get the tests done?

What is ALCAR?

Thanks
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Alcar is acetyl l carnetine. Carnetine is an amino acid, the acetylised version is reputedly more effective. It's used by body builders to increase muscle bulk. The theory, I think, is that is enables the horse to digest carbohydrates and turn them into energy better, instead of storing them, wrongly, in the muscles. But don't quote me on that.




For one of my horses it works far more effectively than the alternative of a lot of vegetable oil.


Some PSSM horses seem to do better on other amino acids, which adds to my suspicion that type two is more than one disease.

PS thanks Mike :)
 
Meredith said:
I know nothing about PSSM so apologies for what may seem silly questions to some.

Where do you get the tests done?

What is ALCAR?

Thanks
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Type 1 you can test for at Animal Genetics by sending a sample of about 30 mane or tail hairs with the root attached. (or in my case a with a fair amount of dandruff attached and a possibly a few lice too!). Results are back within 10 days.

In fact the Animal Genetics site makes quite good reading for the various genetic diseases horses have and that they can now test for.

So many thoughtful and observant owners have posted on this thread . I am proud to be a hho member in such company. For me ,the pssm epsm use whatever abbreviation you like, puts me in mind of my long distance running career. Once one starts to get muscle cramps ,seizures , it continues and it gets worse. I strongly suspect that we must treat all genetically prone horses as if they already had the symptoms.So grateful to all who have posted such valuable info.
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Thank you! I am sure over the next few decades we will get more and more information on these genetic issues and how we can treat them. I am intending on keeping some hair samples from both my horses safely stored in envelopes at home somewhere so - if they are no longer around - their DNA can still potentially be used for investigative purposes.
 
ycbm said:
Alcar is acetyl l carnetine. Carnetine is an amino acid, the acetylised version is reputedly more effective. It's used by body builders to increase muscle bulk. The theory, I think, is that is enables the horse to digest carbohydrates and turn them into energy better, instead of storing them, wrongly, in the muscles. But don't quote me on that.




For one of my horses it works far more effectively than the alternative of a lot of vegetable oil.


Some PSSM horses seem to do better on other amino acids, which adds to my suspicion that type two is more than one disease.

PS thanks Mike :)
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SEL said:
Type 1 you can test for at Animal Genetics by sending a sample of about 30 mane or tail hairs with the root attached. (or in my case a with a fair amount of dandruff attached and a possibly a few lice too!). Results are back within 10 days.

In fact the Animal Genetics site makes quite good reading for the various genetic diseases horses have and that they can now test for.



Thank you! I am sure over the next few decades we will get more and more information on these genetic issues and how we can treat them. I am intending on keeping some hair samples from both my horses safely stored in envelopes at home somewhere so - if they are no longer around - their DNA can still potentially be used for investigative purposes.
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Thank you. I will investigate further.
 
ycbm said:
From an earlier thread:


Horse one was dead to the leg and stiff from the moment he was backed. Then he 'colicked' and was stamping his feet and appearing to look back at his sides. But there were full gut noises. I googled false colic and got PSSM as the most obvious, and since he was a QH where it is rife, put him straight onto oil and vitamin E and selenium. He tests negative for type 1, but the diet changed him completely. Solid bum muscles went softer and he stopped being dead to the leg. Later I swapped him into alcar so as not to feed high calorie oil in summer, and the result was shocking, given that I thought we had him right with the high oil diet. His bum muscles 'emptied' like a popped balloon, leaving him with wobbly blancmange which took weeks to build up into proper muscle. He hasn't looked back since.

Horse number two was fine for a year after breaking and then began to rush transitions. I mean really run away through the hand, almost a panic bolt. I checked his bum muscles and found them very hard. You could bump him with your palm or fist and there was no movement around your hand. Since he is heavy cross, where it is also rife, I put him on the same diet and within days he was moving more freely. After a couple of weeks his bum muscles rippled of you bumped them. It took him several months to return to his previous best.

My vet has seen both and agrees that the response to the diet, especially in horses where the breeding is rife with it, is a diagnosis in itself.


An update since that was written, both horses turned seven this year and the condition can worsen with age. On exactly the same diet as last year, horse two went stiff in the major bum muscles. I doubled his vitamin E and he was right in a couple of weeks.

Horse one had an absolute crisis. He went so wreak he appeared ataxic and I had his neck x rayed. He was so bad he was tripping over things. I whacked him up to 10,000 iu vitamin E a day and within a week he was stronger and after a month was pretty much back to normal.

Next winter they will be on higher vit e levels from October onwards.
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Do you use equine vitamin E - where do you source it? Which oil,?
 
fjordgirl75 said:
Do you use equine vitamin E - where do you source it? Which oil,?
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I’m also interested in finding this out as I’m still debating whether M’s lethargy/ spookiness are PSSM based.
Interestingly, he has put in lots of muscle since being on a veterinary prescribed gastric supplement which contains vitamin E, although not in the quantity mentioned above. I’m wondering about supplementing more on top. Are there any consequences known in feeding high levels of vitamin E if the horse doesn’t need it? How long would it be before I saw results?
 
Melody Grey said:
Are there any consequences known in feeding high levels of vitamin E if the horse doesn’t need it? How long would it be before I saw results?
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Yes it's toxic at high levels over a long time. In my experience the results show very fast in a horse with suspect PSSM, behavioural changes in 48 hours.
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For people reading the whole thread, it's now 4 years old and the DNA test for type 2 mentioned up thread has been found to test for genes that are present in 25% of horses which do not have PSSM. That makes it very suspect for diagnosis.

The first horse I mentioned turned out to have only a vitamin E requirement that was higher than a normal horse. The QH remained on alcar while he was with me, the draft didn't need it, just fairly low levels of vitamin E.

I have also heard of a horse which responded really well to a PSSM diet, which was later dropped with no ill effects but the horse did get a diagnosis of hock arthritis, which may or may not have been connected.
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ycbm said:
For people reading the whole thread, it's now 4 years old and the DNA test for type 2 mentioned up thread has been found to test for genes that are present in 25% of horses which do not have PSSM. That makes it very suspect for diagnosis.

The first horse I mentioned turned out to have only a vitamin E requirement that was higher than a normal horse. The QH remained on alcar while he was with me, the draft didn't need it, just fairly low levels of vitamin E.

I have also heard of a horse which responded really well to a PSSM diet, which was later dropped with no ill effects but the horse did get a diagnosis of hock arthritis, which may or may not have been connected.
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Thankyou @ycbm, very helpful as always :-)
 
I mentioned that study on the PSSM page and the developer of it in America just cuts and pastes loads of scientific gumpf from his own articles (not published) that proves it wrong. Except the article he is proving wrong is not this one and he thinks blinding people with science will prove his point, but it doesn't.
 
In theory then is the only reliable way to test for type 2 by muscle biopsy? I'm debating whether I ought to have Fuzzball tested as I'm still not happy with how he looks behind, trimmer still not happy with how he lands in front, osteo seems to think unlikely anything major going on in back. (Although he does think too much grass makes his gut unhappy) His muscles around his bum just feel really tight & tense sometimes, some days he walks out quite well, some days he's quite slug like, he's generally lacking muscle behind & although he CAN step under properly on turns if you make him if left to his own devices he prefers not to. Not backed yet (still) as I want to be confident he's definitely sound before proceeding but longreined about 4 times a week. Seems to struggle with maintaining trot but hard to say if this is just him being unfit but then the odd time will suddenly just throw a strop & run through the bridle (does this in walk sometimes also). Again hard to say if this is just him being a bit babyish or if there's something more to it.

He seems a bit better in how he stands behind on 5000iu natural vit E a day but I don't really want to go higher than this without knowing that it's needed as don't want to cause toxicity & don't really want to add in things like alcar without knowing that's what he needs as it's hard enough to get him to eat what he's supposed to be on for his gut & his mineral balancer & he's overweight despite spending most of spring / summer in a grazing muzzle so I don't think trialling a high oil diet would be appropriate unless we had a definite clinical reason to do so.

Would presume type 2 more likely with breed as don't THINK Highlands carry type 1 (but didn't know type 2 was a possibility in them until I started looking) but guess if I did it I ought to test for that as well for completeness?

Due to his other issues (& fatness) I'd likely get a nutritionist involved if he DID come back as having it as it's not something I've got masses of experience with
 
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I think the formal peer review for the type 2 tests is some way off. I know people who have had answers from doing the Equiseq genetic tests but getting the team behind to tell you EXACTLY what P2/3/4/8 etc etc mean in simple English is a challenge. They did point out holes in Valbergs disparaging paper on their tests so that hardly covered itself in glory .... but then nor do they imo.

Biopsies are best performed when the horse is struggling so if there is something going on with the muscles then you hope it shows up.

If you haven't already then I'd try an exercise tolerance test before a biopsy. Vet takes bloods for CK at beginning of day, then you exercise for 30 mins @ trot / canter. Pop horse in stable for 5 hours and redo bloods. A "normal" horse should have CK levels broadly similar in the 2 tests. A horse with muscle damage will show markedly higher CK in the 2nd test. My P1 Appy was about 1000 in test one and nearly 5000 test two last time it was performed. Normal horse benchmark is around 350.

Btw high oil diets have died a bit of a death. If you have a P1 horse in a lot of work then oil is needed for energy but most leisure horses can get by on easily digestible fibre.
 
Thanks for the info SEL :) Unsure how successfully we'd be able to manage an exercise tolerance test as although he'll lunge / longrein he's not backed & maintaining trot for 30-60 seconds is difficult enough, unsure I could get him to maintain for anything close to 30 mins (& I'm certainly not fit enough to run with him for that amount of time). Are CK levels always raised with type 2 as some of what I'd read so far seems to suggest they aren't necessarily?
 
My type 2 never showed raised enzymes but we were all sure he had it. He was DNA tested to Impressive (sired by him 15 years after he died!) who was the originator of the HYPP mutation but I think it's likely also PSSM 2.
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Boulty said:
Thanks for the info SEL :) Unsure how successfully we'd be able to manage an exercise tolerance test as although he'll lunge / longrein he's not backed & maintaining trot for 30-60 seconds is difficult enough, unsure I could get him to maintain for anything close to 30 mins (& I'm certainly not fit enough to run with him for that amount of time). Are CK levels always raised with type 2 as some of what I'd read so far seems to suggest they aren't necessarily?
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Depends on whether you're talking genetic type 2 or muscle biopsy type 2! No it isn't for the genetic tests, but then I'm struggling with some of those to really understand what the muscle problem is that they're finding.

I'd forgotten he was a youngster. Have you ever had bloods run? Sometimes CK can be elevated anyway if they're having issues.
 
@Boulty just a few thoughts re-reading your post. Does any of the tension tie up with weather? I know there is a lot of pressure not to rug fat natives, but I have one who is a much happier person with a 50g once temps get below about 7 degrees at night. She gets tight muscles without it.

Any better in boots? A friend was convinced her coloured cob was a PSSM candidate. Pony is transformed by shoes (boots kept falling off)

You mention a gut supplement. Tension from sore tummies can definitely lead to tight muscles, shuffly steps and lack of hindquarter engagement - my PSSM mare has long standing gut issues and if her gut isn't happy then the rest of her is a mess.

Nutrition? Selenium and iodine deficiencies can both cause muscle problems. You'd want a blood test before supplementing though. Mainstream balancers wouldn't give enough extra if he's short.

EMS ruled out?
 
Not had bloods run yet as although I've brought it up with the vet a few times the initial plan was to see if he was just weak due to lack of work (for a wide variety of reasons I've not really got very far with doing much with him for a sustained period of time until this year). I've attempted to push for further investigation a few times but keep being told to wait & see (tbf the initial wait & see was trying to make his gut happier) but I kind of feel I'm at the point where I've tried all the things I've been asked to try & although improved he's not "right" / not as good as he could be. At vets again on 21st with him... attempting to get some written down backup from physio & trimmer so I can communicate a bit clearer specifically why we're concerned as I swear they think I'm being over dramatic. Will add CK bloods to my list of things that I'd like (I DO also want to x-ray his back just in case & also his front feet given that we've been trying & failing to improve landing & foot balance for several cycles now). EMS testing was discussed a few months ago & then vet changed mind. He is muzzled through spring / summer anyway (in an ideal world he'd still be wearing it but he started destroying them & hiding them). I don't think he's leptin resistant as he comes in during the day at moment & a small slice of hay can last him several days & he's also pretty non-greedy with hard feed... if anything I struggle to get him to eat feeds & if I wasn't user instructions to get certain things into him I'd probably have given up trying with hard feed by now so I'm not sure having an EMS diagnosis would change management that much. (In a totally ideal world he'd live on a track system & be either grass free or only have access to very "safe" grass but he has little respect for temporary fencing & I work 10 hr shifts so for now am opting for him being on the doorstep at a yard where he gets more turnout than most yards in the area who don't have a meltdown every time he breaks something... sadly the downside to this is there's a lot more grass than he needs even if it is relatively old pasture land that's not fertilised to the degree that most yards seem to)

Will admit I haven't tried booting him, it is something I do keep considering but both pairs of my boots are currently with a friend of a friend awaiting collection (really should have paid her to post them as been too busy to go get them). He doesn't seem footy though (& trimmer agrees with me on this) although he did used to be slightly (he used to have quite thrushy frogs which I think was part of the issue, they seem better since trying to sort his gut out).

Will add asking about selenium & iodine to the list as well. I've not done any grass or forage testing where I am atm as after a few bad yard experiences I've not dared to think that we might be there for the long term (nothing current place have done wrong but when you've had one place tell you to get gone in as few a no of days as possible it sorta makes you nervous every time something goes slightly wrong in case this is the thing that's going to get us asked to leave this time) & just feels like wasted money if we're not... also not got a long term hay supplier as not found someone whose hay I'm totally happy with that 100% suits him yet.
 
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