PSSM1 confirmed in Welsh D's [or not]

[DirectorFury]

(Per this post from the FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/774...ecently_seen&multi_permalinks=833789647606414 )

Update: The results are being independently verified so currently I guess PSSM1 is not confirmed in D's.

This is something I've been following with interest for a while, especially given the habit of in-breeding within the breed.
It was looking like PSSM1 didn't exist within Sec D's but a page member has had a +ve result today . The poster/owner says the horse is <removed until confirmation received>.

Pretty much everyone who's tested their horse has received a +ve for at least one other variant but I'm aware that the accuracy of the tests for types other than 1 is disputed etc.
I wonder if the WPCS will actually even acknowledge that PSSM exists now .

 

[Snow Falcon]

I do hope so for the breed. It's something the NF breed society acted on. Stallions delicensed if positive and all potential stallions tested.

 

[ester]

I wouldn't be holding my breath, despite the NF society showing how it should be done.

 

[dorsetladette]

I'd like to know the full breeding of the dam. I can't find it online.

I'd hope that wpcs do something. The new forest jumped on this years ago and it really is taken seriously.

 

[DirectorFury]

I'd like to know the full breeding of the dam. I can't find it online.

I'd hope that wpcs do something. The new forest jumped on this years ago and it really is taken seriously.

Dam breeding - <removed until confirmed>
Sire breeding - <removed until confirmed>

The owner of the horse says that he has 2 copies of the PSSM1 gene which means both parents are carriers. Is this true/accurate?
Apparently the current owner of the sire (who is not the original breeder) is going to have him tested.

If the WPCS don’t do something then this is the beginning of the end of the breed imo.

 

[Dexter]

If the horse has two copies, then yes both parents carry at least 1, maybe 2 copies. A horse with 2 copies always passes 1 on. A horse with 1 copy is a 50% chance of being passed on. With PSSM having 1 copy of the gene means they have the disease.

The reputation Ds have for being quirky is almost certainly going to be explained by PSSM as the research and understanding gets better. It is rife within the breed, no doubt caused by all the line breeding.

I doubt the WPCS are going to do anything much at all. They should, but I have no faith they will do the righ thing.

 

[Glitter's fun]

I do hope so for the breed. It's something the NF breed society acted on. Stallions delicensed if positive and all potential stallions tested.

I wouldn't be holding my breath, despite the NF society showing how it should be done.

Can someone tell me which, if any, other breeds are being active about PSSM please.

 

[SEL]

That's the first positive test for type 1 in Sec D's that I've heard of - double copy is worrying.

I'd actually be re-running that sample tbh or checking via bloods. If it is correct though then hopefully they'll start testing the breeding stock. No one can dispute the type 1 test isn't peer reviewed and established.

@Goldie's mum - the NF breed society really stepped up when the first positive was reported about 5 years ago. CHAPS are making an effort but still seem to think it's ok to breed a horse with 1 copy of the gene in case you loose quality stock (hardly talking endangered breed). Appaloosa societies have been on it for years but only for type 1 testing. Some of the warmblood societies are supporting the type 2 testing now but that isn't peer reviewed so it's a case of watch and see.

I think haflinger breeders are testing but I'm not sure if that's driven by their breed societies or public pressure

 

[ester]

Dexter that’s been my thoughts to, given how they can be behaviour wise.

 

[paddy555]

The reputation Ds have for being quirky is almost certainly going to be explained by PSSM as the research and understanding gets better. It is rife within the breed, no doubt caused by all the line breeding.

I got mine in the lat 80's. looking back he was screaming PSSM at me.

 

[Alibear]

American Quarter Horse Association have been all over this for years.
If/as/when the test is validated/proven then I hope the welsh society follows the NFs good example.

 

[DirectorFury]

That's the first positive test for type 1 in Sec D's that I've heard of - double copy is worrying.

I'd actually be re-running that sample tbh or checking via bloods. If it is correct though then hopefully they'll start testing the breeding stock. No one can dispute the type 1 test isn't peer reviewed and established.

It was a DNA blood test so unless there was a mix-up at the lab I think it's pretty accurate.

There is some grumbling on the FB group that the bloodlines further back aren't /entirely/ accurate - something about colours and foals being an impossible colour but I don't know enough about colour genetics to say if they're correct or not! Something about it not being possible for two chestnuts to make a bay? (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thorneyside+the+terminator )

It'll be interesting if/when the PSSM2 [and other types] test passes peer review as I think nearly every Welsh tested so far has returned some +ve for at least 1 variant.

 

[palo1]

Dam breeding - https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/foxheys+synamoni
Sire breeding - https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/abbeyvale+band+of+gold

The owner of the horse says that he has 2 copies of the PSSM1 gene which means both parents are carriers. Is this true/accurate?
Apparently the current owner of the sire (who is not the original breeder) is going to have him tested.

If the WPCS don’t do something then this is the beginning of the end of the breed imo.

It is really concerning and the breed society really does need to take action asap. It will be a huge challenge to deal with in a breed as prolific as Welshies too I am currently very relieved that my mare apparantly has none of the potentially problematic blood lines nor symptoms of PSSM but I would be very hesitant to go out and buy another Welshie if there isn't action from the WPCS over this.

 

[palo1]

It was a DNA blood test so unless there was a mix-up at the lab I think it's pretty accurate.

There is some grumbling on the FB group that the bloodlines further back aren't /entirely/ accurate - something about colours and foals being an impossible colour but I don't know enough about colour genetics to say if they're correct or not! Something about it not being possible for two chestnuts to make a bay? (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thorneyside+the+terminator )

It'll be interesting if/when the PSSM2 [and other types] test passes peer review as I think nearly every Welsh tested so far has returned some +ve for at least 1 variant.

I think some of that rumbling might be suggestive that perhaps breeding hasn't always had the integrity it is supposed to have...

 

[Cloball]

It was a DNA blood test so unless there was a mix-up at the lab I think it's pretty accurate.

There is some grumbling on the FB group that the bloodlines further back aren't /entirely/ accurate - something about colours and foals being an impossible colour but I don't know enough about colour genetics to say if they're correct or not! Something about it not being possible for two chestnuts to make a bay? (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thorneyside+the+terminator )

It'll be interesting if/when the PSSM2 [and other types] test passes peer review as I think nearly every Welsh tested so far has returned some +ve for at least 1 variant.

I've looked at the pics on all breeds and that one does look iffy. It isn't possible for two Chestnuts to produce a bay as you need at least one to have a dominant extension (E). I could see how a black horse with significant fading may have been recorded as liver chestnut. But both those look very ginger to me.

 

[Snowfilly]

It was a DNA blood test so unless there was a mix-up at the lab I think it's pretty accurate.

There is some grumbling on the FB group that the bloodlines further back aren't /entirely/ accurate - something about colours and foals being an impossible colour but I don't know enough about colour genetics to say if they're correct or not! Something about it not being possible for two chestnuts to make a bay? (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thorneyside+the+terminator )

It'll be interesting if/when the PSSM2 [and other types] test passes peer review as I think nearly every Welsh tested so far has returned some +ve for at least 1 variant.

It is impossible for two chestnuts to produce anything other than chestnut, so either someone misidentified one of them or the bloodlines weren’t recorded accurately.

Which does happen, and once you get back a few generations, a lot of pedigrees stop holding up.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Both of Farans parents were Bay ??‍ he’s flaxen Chestnut, vast majority of his breeding is bay and black with a few chestnuts sprinkled in. Both parents and grandparents were bay, I’m not up on genetics tbh but thrown backs can occur I’d imagine

 

[Hormonal Filly]

The positive Welsh D was P1/P1 so both parents carry it!

 

[ester]

Both of Farans parents were Bay ??‍ he’s flaxen Chestnut, vast majority of his breeding is bay and black with a few chestnuts sprinkled in. Both parents and grandparents were bay, I’m not up on genetics tbh but thrown backs can occur I’d imagine

thats entirely possible
2 chestnuts to a bay definitely isn’t!

 

[Dexter]

Both of Farans parents were Bay ??‍ he’s flaxen Chestnut, vast majority of his breeding is bay and black with a few chestnuts sprinkled in. Both parents and grandparents were bay, I’m not up on genetics tbh but thrown backs can occur I’d imagine

A very simple explanation is that chestnut is recessive. So can be hidden by bay. Chesnut cannot hide bay though.

 

[Pippity]

Both of Farans parents were Bay ??‍ he’s flaxen Chestnut, vast majority of his breeding is bay and black with a few chestnuts sprinkled in. Both parents and grandparents were bay, I’m not up on genetics tbh but thrown backs can occur I’d imagine

The chestnut is recessive, so a horse needs to carry two copies of it to be chestnut. It's very possible for a bay/black/brown to carry a single chestnut gene, but not vice versa.

 

[Gloi]

Both of Farans parents were Bay ??‍ he’s flaxen Chestnut, vast majority of his breeding is bay and black with a few chestnuts sprinkled in. Both parents and grandparents were bay, I’m not up on genetics tbh but thrown backs can occur I’d imagine

It's worth reading up on it, it's quite interesting ?

 

[Gloi]

The breed society should investigate the chestnut horse and verify the parentage with DNA testing.

 

[DirectorFury]

The breed society should investigate the chestnut horse and verify the parentage with DNA testing.

He was born in '94 and I think died a few years ago. He was also a prolific sire! The WPCS likely wouldn't do anything even if he was still going, only a few years old, etc. They don't seem to care about the longevity or health of the breed.

Oh, lol, it was brought to their attention 10 years ago - https://www.facebook.com/2785846888...ecision-regarding-thorneysid/492621920753266/

Interesting to see if this comes back to bite them on the arse...

Spoiler: Text from FB link

Here is the summary from the WPCS meeting on their decision regarding THORNEYSIDE THE TERMINATOR, which is interesting in that it is a genetic impossibility that two chestnut parents can give a bay, but they felt that by massaging the text a bit, they could pass this for truth - how insulting to intelligent people! We have said in the past that incorrect registration papers with no DNA backup could result in fraudulent bloodlines - and future breeders are implicated in the problem, as what they present to buyers is in fact not what is actually the fact and could be seen as a major blow for the integrity of bloodlines overseen by the Breed Society
WPCS Council Meeting 05/12/11
Summary Report
This report summarises the main points that were discussed covered during a meeting of the Welsh Pony and Cob Society Council that took place on Monday 5th December 2011 at the Society’s offices in Bronaeron, Lampeter.
Reports were submitted on the standing committee and other meetings that had taken place. These included Finance & HR, Judging and Showing, Services Education and Welfare, Sales, Advisory Group, RWAS and the International Workshop held 14th November 201.
An investigation into the parentage of Thorneyside the Terminator was concluded, which included a comprehensive analysis and report by the Animal Health Trust. Council passed that the sire of Thorneyside the Terminator would remain as Brynymor Welsh Magic, on the basis of the investigation by the AHT that concluded there was no scientific evidence to exclude or qualify him as the sire. It was noted in the AHT report that true chestnuts parents can only produce chestnut progeny, however this is only when there is an absolute absence of true black hairs. It was further decided that, in future, any animal that applies for registration that is out of a chestnut sire and dam, but the progeny’s colour is not noted as chestnut, will be DNA tested to verify parentage. If the parentage is confirmed, further tests will be undertaken to confirm the colour of the sire and dam as true chestnuts. The cost of undertaking the testing will be borne by the Society, however if the parentage is proven incorrect, the breeder will have to reimburse the cost.

 

[SEL]

It was a DNA blood test so unless there was a mix-up at the lab I think it's pretty accurate.

There is some grumbling on the FB group that the bloodlines further back aren't /entirely/ accurate - something about colours and foals being an impossible colour but I don't know enough about colour genetics to say if they're correct or not! Something about it not being possible for two chestnuts to make a bay? (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/thorneyside+the+terminator )

It'll be interesting if/when the PSSM2 [and other types] test passes peer review as I think nearly every Welsh tested so far has returned some +ve for at least 1 variant.

If its a blood test then highly, highly likely to be accurate

I'm not sure I can get onto that FB page but did the owner get it tested because it tied up? Usually the welsh owners head straight for the type 2 tests

I could always see how PSSM ended up in the NF ponies because 'anything' could have been turned out in the forest over the years. I met one who fitted all the PSSM criteria who looked awfully like a skinnier version of my draft horse (in fact I asked his breeding because I was convinced he was a part bred Ardennes - didn't go down well ). I did gently suggest the hair test for that after watching a lesson where the poor boy literally couldn't move and it came back n/p1.

Pure bred welshies though I would have thought flags for P1 would have popped up before now

 

[palo1]

He was born in '94 and I think died a few years ago. He was also a prolific sire! The WPCS wouldn't do anything even if he was still going, only a few years old, etc. They don't seem to care about the longevity or health of the breed.

Oh, lol, it was brought to their attention 10 years ago - https://www.facebook.com/2785846888...ecision-regarding-thorneysid/492621920753266/

Interesting to see if this comes back to bite them on the arse...

Spoiler: Text from FB link

Here is the summary from the WPCS meeting on their decision regarding THORNEYSIDE THE TERMINATOR, which is interesting in that it is a genetic impossibility that two chestnut parents can give a bay, but they felt that by massaging the text a bit, they could pass this for truth - how insulting to intelligent people! We have said in the past that incorrect registration papers with no DNA backup could result in fraudulent bloodlines - and future breeders are implicated in the problem, as what they present to buyers is in fact not what is actually the fact and could be seen as a major blow for the integrity of bloodlines overseen by the Breed Society
WPCS Council Meeting 05/12/11
Summary Report
This report summarises the main points that were discussed covered during a meeting of the Welsh Pony and Cob Society Council that took place on Monday 5th December 2011 at the Society’s offices in Bronaeron, Lampeter.
Reports were submitted on the standing committee and other meetings that had taken place. These included Finance & HR, Judging and Showing, Services Education and Welfare, Sales, Advisory Group, RWAS and the International Workshop held 14th November 201.
An investigation into the parentage of Thorneyside the Terminator was concluded, which included a comprehensive analysis and report by the Animal Health Trust. Council passed that the sire of Thorneyside the Terminator would remain as Brynymor Welsh Magic, on the basis of the investigation by the AHT that concluded there was no scientific evidence to exclude or qualify him as the sire. It was noted in the AHT report that true chestnuts parents can only produce chestnut progeny, however this is only when there is an absolute absence of true black hairs. It was further decided that, in future, any animal that applies for registration that is out of a chestnut sire and dam, but the progeny’s colour is not noted as chestnut, will be DNA tested to verify parentage. If the parentage is confirmed, further tests will be undertaken to confirm the colour of the sire and dam as true chestnuts. The cost of undertaking the testing will be borne by the Society, however if the parentage is proven incorrect, the breeder will have to reimburse the cost.

Oh blimey, that is a fair can of worms then...

 

[DirectorFury]

If its a blood test then highly, highly likely to be accurate

I'm not sure I can get onto that FB page but did the owner get it tested because it tied up? Usually the welsh owners head straight for the type 2 tests

I could always see how PSSM ended up in the NF ponies because 'anything' could have been turned out in the forest over the years. I met one who fitted all the PSSM criteria who looked awfully like a skinnier version of my draft horse (in fact I asked his breeding because I was convinced he was a part bred Ardennes - didn't go down well ). I did gently suggest the hair test for that after watching a lesson where the poor boy literally couldn't move and it came back n/p1.

Pure bred welshies though I would have thought flags for P1 would have popped up before now

The pony is only a 2yo but has been blood tested for PSSM1 and had a muscle biopsy for PSSM2 (owner is still waiting for the Type 2 results). She doesn't say if he's currently symptomatic but does say "advice from top neuro muscular vet and scientist within the UK swayed me for the biopsy for type 2." so I'm assuming he's been struggling or had some signs that made her test.

AFAICT the Welsh owners have just gone for PSSM2 tests as so far all of the ones tested, about 100 in total, have been -ve for P1 so the advice has been that it doesn't need to be done. Most of the owners on that FB page are now also testing for P1.

Of all the D's tested so far the results are here - https://welshpssmdata.wixsite.com/my-site/welsh-d . Only around 10% are completely clear of any PSSM variant, and the majority have at least one copy of a PSSM2 gene. It seems endemic in the breed. This is what happens when the focus is on in-hand 'performance' with the breeding animals never expected to hold up to any real workloads.
I guess it's been easy for people to write them off as 'quirky', 'crazy', 'sharp' etc.

Mine sadly closely shares a bloodline with one who has tested P3/P3 for PSSM2 so I'm going to be getting her tested.

 

[DirectorFury]

.

 

[SEL]

The pony is only a 2yo but has been blood tested for PSSM1 and had a muscle biopsy for PSSM2 (owner is still waiting for the Type 2 results). She doesn't say if he's currently symptomatic but does say "advice from top neuro muscular vet and scientist within the UK swayed me for the biopsy for type 2." so I'm assuming he's been struggling or had some signs that made her test.

AFAICT the Welsh owners have just gone for PSSM2 tests as so far all of the ones tested, about 100 in total, have been -ve for P1 so the advice has been that it doesn't need to be done. Most of the owners on that FB page are now also testing for P1.

Of all the D's tested so far the results are here - https://welshpssmdata.wixsite.com/my-site/welsh-d . Only around 10% are completely clear of any PSSM variant, and the majority have at least one copy of a PSSM2 gene. It seems endemic in the breed. This is what happens when the focus is on in-hand 'performance' with the breeding animals never expected to hold up to any real workloads.
I guess it's been easy for people to write them off as 'quirky', 'crazy', 'sharp' etc.

Mine sadly closely shares a bloodline with one who has tested P3/P3 for PSSM2 so I'm going to be getting her tested.

I used to ride welshies a lot and all the quirky ones were massively inbred. I can remember my good friend saying hers came from a gene puddle rather than a gene pool.

If you're testing a 2yo for muscle problems then there must be something obviously wrong. My Appy's issues didn't show up until she was started under saddle.

Are you seeing problems with yours or is it a case of just wanting to know?

 

[HashRouge]

I used to ride welshies a lot and all the quirky ones were massively inbred. I can remember my good friend saying hers came from a gene puddle rather than a gene pool.

Mine is very inbred and extremely quirky. Nebo Black Magic should not appear so many times in one horse's pedigree...! No signs of anything like PSSM though, luckily.