PTS decision

[Flossy71]

Hi all, my horse has developed SCC in his sheath (he had a benign tumour removed from the same area a year ago). My usual vet is on holiday at the moment. The vet that came out and did the diagnosis seemed insistent to PTS there and there, which I found rather pushy considering the horse is otherwise happy and healthy and looking in very good condition. I said I needed a day to think about things and get my head around it. By the very next morning he was ringing me again and has also called my yard owner several times. My yard owner, who is absolutely lovely and being so supportive despite having only recently moved him there, has agreed she doesn’t think there is any need to make a hasty decision, although she does agree it’s better a day too soon than a day too late. We’ve agreed to get the senior vet out for a second opinion ASAP. My lovely yard manager has asked me what I want to do if this vet also agrees it’s best to PTS. She said a lot of owners like to say their goodbyes beforehand and not be there when it actually happens and that if the vet says it’s time for him to go she can manage the whole thing for me, which is extremely thoughtful of her. I’m in two minds now though. Part of me feels like I owe it to him to be there but there’s also part of me that doesn’t want that lasting memory of him collapsing as he goes down. This is the third animal I’ve had to PTS in 3 years, it never gets any easier does it! I’m just wondering what other people have opted for when the time has come and how they felt about their decision?

 

[Nudibranch]

Sorry to hear about your boy. I've always chosen to have them pts before things get uncomfortable for them. Recently that meant what looked like a perfectly happy and healthy 7yo, although actually he was not. I always opt for shooting, as I had an injection go very, very wrong but that is very rare. Can you discuss things with your usual vet when they return from holiday? I find talking things through with someone you know and trust makes the whole process so much easier. I usually hand over the horse at the last moment but the horse we pts recently was done by the vet we use now, who operates on a one vet-one client basis. So he is our only equine vet and knows both me and the horses very well. When the time came I stayed with the horse, and it was far less stressful than usual because I knew, and had confidence in, our vet. It was actually incredibly peaceful despite the bullet, and I am glad I was there this time. It depends a lot on your relationship with them imo. I'd discuss with the vet you usually see when they come back - presumably they're not going to be away for more than a week or two?

 

[Midlifecrisis]

I sorry to hear the pressure you are being put under - if there is no immediate distress that the horse is experiencing then I would wait until your usual vet has spoken with you. You need to make an informed decision in a clear and calm way - not be rushed into it.

 

[luckyoldme]

It's strange that the vet is so pushy..as long as your horse is comfortable I don't see the hurry. Most owners need time to arrive at that point. It's such a personal descision and the key point here is that the horse doesn't suffer needlessly. Other than that the next priority is for you to take care of yourself and do what you feel comfortable with. My old boy was pts in December at the age of 30 by injection. He was sedated and I led him outside to say my private goodbyes I had to get out of the way while the vet gave him the second injection but I was able to hold his head as the last breath left his body. I waited round the corner as his body was loaded and left when I saw the wagon leave. I felt I had kept my promises to him. It is great that you have the yard owners support but ultimately this is your horse and you must be confortable with the descision you make. Some people prefer not to he there and that's understandable too.

 

[Goldenstar]

As the horse is in no immediate discomfort I would definitely wait until your usual vet returns .I would get a call booked in for his first day back at work .
It’s very thoughtful and kind of your Yoer , when the time comes no way is right or wrong I prefer to be there but if you feel you don’t its not wrong .
I am so sorry you in this position horses are heartbreaking .

 

[meleeka]

When my old pony was pts I felt the same as you. I felt I owed it to her but didn’t want to have the image of her on the floor. I explained this to my vet and had my car ready at the gate facing the way out. My pony was pts by injection and sedated first. I held her for the sedation and when the injection went in. I then handed her to my vet and turned and walked to my car and went home. My vet dealt with everything after that. I felt that I was there for as long as she was aware. I was technically still there as she went as I heard her fall but didn’t look back. It was the right thing for me to do, but there’s never really a right or wrong way to deal with these things.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

It never does get any easier!

We have had several pts (we've kept horses for 40+yrs) and have had most of them shot. A couple have been by injection and it was obvious that neither of them liked the process and fought it. We know the owner of our local equine crem, who does the job for us these days, socially, so that makes it a bit easier on the day. We have used the hunt in the past, too.

Even for the last horse that I had pts, I discussed my decision with the vet who I have known the longest at the practice (almost as long as I have kept horses), although he hadn't actually seen the horse but had provided pain relief earlier in the week and wasn't involved in the pts.

I prefer to be there where the horse can see me at the end but definitely not while the horse is removed. Did the attending vet explain why he felt there was such a need to hurry? If your usual vet is going to be available soon and the horse is not uncomfortable atm, I would wait and talk it over with him before you come to a decision. Having said that, I am all for 'better a week too soon, than a day too late'.

As for afterwards, even in the most dire emergency, or with the very oldest horse, in the most obvious circumstances, I think it is natural to keep on 2nd guessing yourself. It's part of the grieving process and you just have to tell yourself that you made the best decision with the information that you had available at the time, turn your mind to happier memories and instruct yourself to move on.

 

[Sandstone1]

Its wrong of your vet to be so pushy if the horse is not in immediate distress.
You should certainly get a second opinion from a experienced vet that you trust.
How you go from there is your choice.
If you feel you want to be there or not is completely up to you. Dont let anyone push you either way.
The Blue cross have a bereavement sevice and you can talk to them beforehand if you feel you need to.
Im sorry you are facing this but its a hard decision that only you should make.

 

[Cortez]

There really is no way back from SCC; I have had one PTS with penile cancer and the progression is not pleasant. Nobody can make the decision about your horse but you, while I am presuming the attending vet has his/her reasons for recommending euthanasia sooner rather than later, if the horse is in no distress then there can be no harm in waiting until you can consult with your regular vet.

I'm a pretty tough old bird, but I have never held my own horse for euthanasia.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I think the vet is being a bit pushy considering the horse is fine at the moment I would wait until you regular vet returns, sorry your having to go through this and no unfortunately it doesn't get any easier, I have always been there when mine are done but I appreciate its not for everyone, I have dealt with a few for people who didn't want to be present at the end of the day its your choice and at least if you decide not to you have someone you can trust to be there.

 

[scats]

I’m suprised the vet is being so pushy if the animal is not in immediate distress. I had one with SCC of his sheath. We opted for a partial phallectomy which removed 90% or the lesions and then we did topical chemo. It was a great success, but we did realise we were just buying him time. He had another 3 fantastic years and then I noticed things getting a bit gunky and swollen and, having been top dog in our herd, he started getting pushed away and bossed around which was quite upsetting to see. A week or so later, quite out of the blue, he developed mild laminitis. I knew things were progressing and his body was under stress, so decided to call it a day having taken everything into consideration.

I’ve had several horses put to sleep and I like to be there. I actually prefer to be on my own with the vet and not have friends hanging around checking I’m ok. I usually have a little cry before the vet comes, but i hold it together during and afterwards. I have no problems watching it, but I am quite a stoic character and i have a business-like attitude to euthanasia. I also stay and deal with the collection of the body, but I do understand that some people find this bit hard.

 

[SEL]

Is your horse still able to pass urine OK at the moment? Struggling in that area is the only reason I can think of for the vet to be as pushy about PTS right now.

Unless your horse is struggling I would wait for your normal vet. Even if the opinion is the same it will give you some breathing space.

 

[Mule]

I held my old mare when she was pts last year. The thing is she sensed my anxiety and realised something was up. Because of that I won't be there when the next one goes. I think that's something to bear in mind.

My case was opposite to yours. I was dealing with a new, young vet who had just joined the practice and who wanted to continue treating the horse. Horse had cushings and her immune system wasn't able to deal with the increasingly worse infections. She had cellulitis that wasn't responding to antibiotics so I decided it was time.

Your vets insistence on doing it straight away is odd, especially if the horse isn't suffering. Perhaps wait for your other vet.

 

[Birker2020]

I assume the horse isn't in pain and can urinate as normal. If that's the case then I would wait for the other vet but I would still like to know why the pushy vet is being so pushy. Have they not given any reason why this should be done straight away? Is there no treatment plan that can be followed or nothing that can be done for your boy? The vet has given you any options and I wonder why this is.

I would want to be with my horse when the time comes, there is no where I would rather be than by their side and it would be me, my partner and my vet. I couldn't desert my horse in its time of need, but that's just my personal opinion and I don't think there is any right or wrong way.

 

[Mule]

I assume the horse isn't in pain and can urinate as normal. If that's the case then I would wait for the other vet but I would still like to know why the pushy vet is being so pushy. Have they not given any reason why this should be done straight away? Is there no treatment plan that can be followed or nothing that can be done for your boy? The vet has given you any options and I wonder why this is.

I would want to be with my horse when the time comes, there is no where I would rather be than by their side and it would be me, my partner and my vet. I couldn't desert my horse in its time of need, but that's just my personal opinion and I don't think there is any right or wrong way.

I don't think not being there when horse is pts is desertion. Ideally they won't know what's going to happen so they wouldn't know the difference anyway. Tbh they prefer equine company to humans anyway. I know when I chose to be there it was for me.

 

[supsup]

I held my mare when she was PTS by injection, and I don't regret it. It's still a sad memory, but doesn't overwhelm all the good memories I've had with her. Maybe it helped that she was a small pony, and she just slid to the ground. It was all quite peaceful. She was old, it was definitely her time and she didn't like to be handled generally, but even less so by strangers. So I think in her case, it was the least stressful option for her that I went to catch and hold her. I had a friend with me, and we left right after she was PTS. The vet arranged for everything else.

I think it is worth remembering that horses don't think like humans, and have no concept of guilt or blame the way we do. If it is easier for you not to be present, then your horse certainly won't blame you for it. The only thing you owe him is to prevent unnecessary suffering. From the horse's point of view, I do not think he'd be able to distinguish between e.g. being sedated by the vet before a dental exam (while being held/presented by yard owner), or being sedated before being PTS.

I'm sorry that you're finding yourself in this position yet again. I hope your regular vet can help you make a decision either way.

 

[Mule]

I held my mare when she was PTS by injection, and I don't regret it. It's still a sad memory, but doesn't overwhelm all the good memories I've had with her. Maybe it helped that she was a small pony, and she just slid to the ground. It was all quite peaceful. She was old, it was definitely her time and she didn't like to be handled generally, but even less so by strangers. So I think in her case, it was the least stressful option for her that I went to catch and hold her. I had a friend with me, and we left right after she was PTS. The vet arranged for everything else.

I think it is worth remembering that horses don't think like humans, and have no concept of guilt or blame the way we do. If it is easier for you not to be present, then your horse certainly won't blame you for it. The only thing you owe him is to prevent unnecessary suffering. From the horse's point of view, I do not think he'd be able to distinguish between e.g. being sedated by the vet before a dental exam (while being held/presented by yard owner), or being sedated before being PTS.

I'm sorry that you're finding yourself in this position yet again. I hope your regular vet can help you make a decision either way.

I agree.

 

[Birker2020]

I don't think not being there when horse is pts is desertion. Ideally they won't know what's going to happen so they wouldn't know the difference anyway. Tbh they prefer equine company to humans anyway. I know when I chose to be there it was for me.

Well I would feel like I was deserting my horse, but like I said, its a personal opinion and the word 'desert' was my own take on it. Each to their own. Like I said, no right or wrong way, just personal preference. But I certainly wouldn't want to be crying my eyes out as that would make a horse distressed so unless I knew that I could cope with that situation I wouldn't do it. Again not a criticism or anything else, just a personal observation. Hope that has explained things!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I've seen and held alot of animals for euthanasia and am always there for my dogs and cats. for my horse though I stayed until the catheter was in and he was heavily sedated and then I left-my husband stayed with him. that horse loved people and the vet so he was very comfortable with the poeple he was with and his surroundings-I'd taken him there to graze in hand during the lead up as it was the only place the lorry could get to to collect him and I wanted him familiar with the spot. If he'd been a more anxious sort I would have stayed I think. There's no right or wrong answer, just do what you think is right for your situation-sorry you're having to go through it.

 

[Flossy71]

Hi all, wow I’m really very stunned at the amount of replies and support I’ve received. It’s helped me enormously especially as you’re all horse owners with experience of this so know what I’m facing. You all seem to have responded to the vets pressure at having him PTS as a matter of urgency the same way myself and my yard owner have. Thankfully my yard owner took steps today to ask the senior vet for a second opinion while he was on site today. He completely agrees with the first vet that it’s definitely a case of penile SCC and that ultimately the outcome won’t be good but he also agrees with me and the yard owner in that my horse is currently doing very well, eating loads, in good condition, interested in absolutely everything and showing no outward signs whatsoever of illness other than the obvious site of the SCC. So he doesn’t think there is any need to PTS while he is happy and comfortable. He’s suggested putting a band around the tumour on the end of his penis to cut off its blood supply so it drops off, the same as you would a sarcoid, which he’s arranged for tomorrow (surely they carry them as stock rather than yet another call out?!) and said to just manage it until it’s obvious he’s in pain and starts losing condition and showing signs of deterioration. Decision postponed for now, which was the worst part tbh. If he was visibly suffering I wouldn’t have hesitated, but since going into full livery from grass livery omg he is doing so well! He does also have cushings but we caught that so early it’s not an issue at all, you wouldn’t even know he had it and my regular vet has no concerns about his ACT levels whatsoever. I know the inevitable will come but I just couldn’t face it while he seemed so perfectly normal! It felt a bit fatalist reaction to me tbh. It also now gives me time to consider what to do when the time does come. I know it won’t get any easier. This will be my third beloved furry family member in the last 3 years I’ve had to see PTS (lesson learnt, don’t get a load of pets all at the same time as youngsters and why couldn’t just one of them have died peacefully in their sleep!). Quite a few of you have said how you were there right up until the vet injected and then left so you didn’t have to see them drop to the ground or be removed. Funny how you can’t thibk straight when you’re suddenly faced with skbetiing out of the blue. I like that idea. When it comes to it I can go say my goodbyes then have my private meltdown in the confines of my car! I think the hardest part in coming to terms with it all is because he lost so much condition over the winter for the first time that inbeteeen his move from his grass livery to his new home I sent him for a stay at the vets where they ran every test known to man, including cancer tests, and everything cane back clear. Moved him and he started looking a million times better within weeks. So I’ve kinda gone from expecting the worst and for all tests to be clear and a big sigh of relief to just a month later discovering he has SCC!

 

[Birker2020]

Hi all, wow I’m really very stunned at the amount of replies and support I’ve received. It’s helped me enormously especially as you’re all horse owners with experience of this so know what I’m facing. You all seem to have responded to the vets pressure at having him PTS as a matter of urgency the same way myself and my yard owner have. Thankfully my yard owner took steps today to ask the senior vet for a second opinion while he was on site today. He completely agrees with the first vet that it’s definitely a case of penile SCC and that ultimately the outcome won’t be good but he also agrees with me and the yard owner in that my horse is currently doing very well, eating loads, in good condition, interested in absolutely everything and showing no outward signs whatsoever of illness other than the obvious site of the SCC. So he doesn’t think there is any need to PTS while he is happy and comfortable. He’s suggested putting a band around the tumour on the end of his penis to cut off its blood supply so it drops off, the same as you would a sarcoid, which he’s arranged for tomorrow (surely they carry them as stock rather than yet another call out?!) and said to just manage it until it’s obvious he’s in pain and starts losing condition and showing signs of deterioration. Decision postponed for now, which was the worst part tbh. If he was visibly suffering I wouldn’t have hesitated, but since going into full livery from grass livery omg he is doing so well! He does also have cushings but we caught that so early it’s not an issue at all, you wouldn’t even know he had it and my regular vet has no concerns about his ACT levels whatsoever. I know the inevitable will come but I just couldn’t face it while he seemed so perfectly normal! It felt a bit fatalist reaction to me tbh. It also now gives me time to consider what to do when the time does come. I know it won’t get any easier. This will be my third beloved furry family member in the last 3 years I’ve had to see PTS (lesson learnt, don’t get a load of pets all at the same time as youngsters and why couldn’t just one of them have died peacefully in their sleep!). Quite a few of you have said how you were there right up until the vet injected and then left so you didn’t have to see them drop to the ground or be removed. Funny how you can’t thibk straight when you’re suddenly faced with skbetiing out of the blue. I like that idea. When it comes to it I can go say my goodbyes then have my private meltdown in the confines of my car! I think the hardest part in coming to terms with it all is because he lost so much condition over the winter for the first time that inbeteeen his move from his grass livery to his new home I sent him for a stay at the vets where they ran every test known to man, including cancer tests, and everything cane back clear. Moved him and he started looking a million times better within weeks. So I’ve kinda gone from expecting the worst and for all tests to be clear and a big sigh of relief to just a month later discovering he has SCC!

Well I hope you have many happy days ahead that you can spend with your horse, you will know when the time is right to let him go. At least you have some time to build some special memories and give you time to decide what to do when the time comes. Best wishes x

 

[Cortez]

That is good news, but may I suggest that waiting until he is in pain and losing condition is perhaps taking it a bit far? I would want my horse to go while he was still feeling good and not suffering.

 

[meleeka]

That is good news, but may I suggest that waiting until he is in pain and losing condition is perhaps taking it a bit far? I would want my horse to go while he was still feeling good and not suffering.

I can see it’s very hard to pts a happy horse. At least OP knows now to look for the signs and any small deterioration can be taken as the sign that she needs to make the call. If the OP is anything like I was I just knew, before outward suffering was evident.

 

[Flossy71]

I can see it’s very hard to pts a happy horse. At least OP knows now to look for the signs and any small deterioration can be taken as the sign that she needs to make the call. If the OP is anything like I was I just knew, before outward suffering was evident.

Yes you’re right. When my beautiful fur baby’s time was up a couple of years ago, he was diagnosed with kidney failure and was happy and healthy for another 8 months after diagnosis but the minute I saw things weren’t quite right I made the decision to PTS despite the fact the vet would have kept on treating him. I absolutely won’t let my boy start suffering, which is why I also moved him into full livery in his old age despite the fact he’s always lived out and prefers it. The people at his livery are absolutely amazing thankfully, they’re completely involved in the diagnosis and are currently in agreement with me that there is no need to rush things, as is my normal vet who has looked at photos of the SCC while he’s on holiday for me. He had the staff at the yard around him all day long and one lives on site right by the stables. He’s on low dose pain killers just in case but they all agree behaviourally he’s happy and full of himself. They know to keep a close eye on him and they also know to be frank with me and tell me when they think it’s time regardless of how I’m feeling about it. I’m very lucky to have their support I have to say, particularly as we only moved there a month ago! So glad we did!