Pts - injection or live ammunition

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Sampson.rebecca

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Hi all, I am writing a research project on which method is used more, I have had a few horses PTS and have always gone for huntsman. Just wondering on your views? thanks
 
I had my old boy PTS by injection and then cremated. Could not bear the idea of a gun then having him eaten! The whole idea makes me shudder, he was too special and deserved a clean, painless and dignified end. His ashes were scattered under an old oak tree on his favourite ride.
 
Huntsman/knackerman and gun every time......I have seen several horses euthanised this way and has always been quick and gentle, with the horse knowing nothing about it.

It is possibly more traumatic for the owner, but kinder on the horse imo, and the way I would like mine to go.
 
YorksG said:
what is your research project for, please? I always try to help, but do like to know the context :)
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Its for my university in Equitation science behaviour nd training. subject is on welfare and codes of practices, for my interactive portfolio i chose to go into the welfare and reasons why people feel each method is kinder for the horse :)
 
injection with a good compassionate vet. for baby it was quick peaceful but i had support from brilliant vet who even when gone treated my horse so gentle. Liz was what you meed from your vet
 
My answer would be 'it depends', based on what the vet, if used, is happier doing; on whether the horse is headshy and not sedated (where I'd avoid shooting) and whether the horse is needle phobic, (which would make me err more towards shooting.) Also prefer to use the quickest most easily available in an emergency.

I believe both methods done correctly are kind to the horse.
 
I've had both.

Magic was injection, i held him. He had his mouth in a bucket of feed, his ears pricked, me by his side and his owner infront of him. Stupidly i did not move when the vet said he was going down so i got hit by his shoulder, my fault. There was no thrashing, no heavy breathing. Just gone.

Prince was taken by the hunt, i couldn't afford a vet then pickup. I was advised to leave and not watch so i did so. However my yard owner watched from her window and said it wasnt pretty and he staggered around. When i returned there were deep marks, clear signs of a struggle and movement and lots of blood on the ground. They had tried to cover it up, however they left his headcollar on a cushioned chair and it left blood stains on. Not what you want to see.

I would chose injection, through the personal experience.
 
touchstone said:
My answer would be 'it depends', based on what the vet, if used, is happier doing; on whether the horse is headshy and not sedated (where I'd avoid shooting) and whether the horse is needle phobic, (which would make me err more towards shooting.) Also prefer to use the quickest most easily available in an emergency.

I believe both methods done correctly are kind to the horse.
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Agree with this basically. Easy to think about the "ideal" way you'd like it done, but in an emergency it would have to be whichever was available the quickest, and so therefore the most humane.
 
I've witness 2 PTS by the gun and my cat (so not the same) by injection.

For the cat it was unbelievably quick! It was over in a millisecond :(

For the 2 horses...I don't know. While it was nice and quick, it was horrible seeing them fall and the sound of the gun. The blood is also horrific. One of them was a lively TB and I was so nervous they'd miss. Thankfully he held still long enough for them to get a clean shot. YM told me not to look where they went down and I'm glad I didn't. Even after they'd cleaned up, there was still blood on the floor :(
Ned was extremely interested in the patch, he was quite upset (as he saw it happen) but seemed ok after I let him sniff.
 
I have seen horses fighting the injection. They have struggled as the life slips from their bodies. They weren't my horses (thankfully) and the injection and sedation was administered by an experienced and competent vet.

If given the choice, I would always use a bullet. They are gone before they hit the ground.
 
OP it's worth a search as there was a really good thread about this a few months ago with some really interesting views.

I've seen an injection on a big dog go wrong and I can't imagine what that would be like with a horse. I know personally what it's like to fight sedation/ anasthetic when you don't want it so it is possible - there is no way to 'fight' a gun.

I've had a handful PTS by local knackerman and as an expert in his field I would always use him or equivalent given the choice, vets and huntsmen thankfully only have to PTS a large horse maybe once a month (or less? just a guess but certainly not every day for them) where as the knackerman is dealing with horses and cows several times a day so he has much more and relevant experience - making him the 'best' person IMHO.

In an emergancy I would go with what the person doing it was most skilled at - if the vet wasn't a regular gun user then I wouldn't force them to go down that route just in case.
 
Prefer injection, unless there was a compelling reason to choose shooting.

It is possible to 'fight' sedation, but not to prevent or delay loss of consciousness by willpower with an anaesthetic overdose administered correctly. It is simply not possible. People may see involuntary reactions that look like 'fighting' and interpret them as willed resistance. Given that people insist that willed resistance does actually happen, it would be useful to explain how because it goes against what is known to occur medically and physiologically.
 
Greylegs said:
I had my old boy PTS by injection and then cremated. Could not bear the idea of a gun then having him eaten! The whole idea makes me shudder, he was too special and deserved a clean, painless and dignified end. His ashes were scattered under an old oak tree on his favourite ride.
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Injection for this reason and the sound of the gun shot would be my last memory, also can hold them with injection, and the thought of a blood trail to the van and pool of blood to bee seen by all "shudders"
 
I can only explain personally my willed resistance to a recent general anasthetic, clearly I did go under eventually but my strong memories from being in the op theater were shouting at the nurses trying to get off the table and being held by other nurses. I don't know how medically this occurs or whether it's worse becasue of the strange surroundings (that clearly aren't relevant to a horse being PTS at home) but going under feels grim!
 
Sampson.rebecca said:
Its for my university in Equitation science behaviour nd training. subject is on welfare and codes of practices, for my interactive portfolio i chose to go into the welfare and reasons why people feel each method is kinder for the horse :)
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No live ammunition is ever used - the gun used fires a bolt so I find your title highly strange.
 
Polos Mum said:
I can only explain personally my willed resistance to a recent general anasthetic, clearly I did go under eventually but my strong memories from being in the op theater were shouting at the nurses trying to get off the table and being held by other nurses. I don't know how medically this occurs or whether it's worse becasue of the strange surroundings (that clearly aren't relevant to a horse being PTS at home) but going under feels grim!
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Yes, but there is a crucial difference between your situation and that of equine euthanasia. You were given a carefully regulated dose designed to produce a depth of unconsciousness sufficient to allow the operation to be performed safely. That is much less than the massive overdose given intravenously to horses to kill them. There is (or should be) a hefty safety factor built into the overdose to ensure this happens. Because the anaesthetic is given as a large infusion and arrives at the brain at high concentration, the period of time in which the brain is exposed to intermediate concentrations (due to mixing in the blood vessels) is short. That is different from the case in human anaesthesia where the dose is adjusted progressively while body signs are monitored to avoid an excessive dose (anaesthetic agents having various unwanted side effects esp at higher doses). Does that make sense?
 
fburton said:
Does that make sense?
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It does certainly, very different circumstances I know as I'm aware of what's going on and know that I don't want it so not truely comparable.

I suspect the cases people have experienced (and my personal dog experience) are where the overdose isn't sufficient or isn't given sufficiently quickly or the aminals system is so compromised that it isn't reaching the brain quickly enough
 
Polos Mum said:
It does certainly, very different circumstances I know as I'm aware of what's going on and know that I don't want it so not truely comparable.

I suspect the cases people have experienced (and my personal dog experience) are where the overdose isn't sufficient or isn't given sufficiently quickly or the aminals system is so compromised that it isn't reaching the brain quickly enough
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When I had my hysterectomy, I went under and just remember gradually loosing conscious no issues. If i have to have my broken humerus plated i will go under GA again my pets all have injections (dog and cats) and my horses too .I have seen too many messy disturbing pts's using the gun. So it will be injection every time.
 
Leviathan - it's certainly a very personal choice and very much swayed by previous personal experience I think.

As long as you have an experienced knowledgeable person there isn't a right or wrong answer.
 
My horses spend the majority of their lives hunting with hounds, and that is where they have gone in the end. I would never consider injection.
 
YasandCrystal said:
No live ammunition is ever used - the gun used fires a bolt so I find your title highly strange.
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As a farmer I nearly always put my own animals down. I have shot all my life, including culling many wild deer, and at one time I was a fire arms dealer. I use expanding ammunition from a centre fire rifle and death is instantaneous. The hunt and knackerman will probably use a humane killer, i.e. captive bolt, but not necessarily.

I also thought the title a bit emotive, especially if the OP is looking for unbiased opinions.
 
Dry Rot said:
I also thought the title a bit emotive, especially if the OP is looking for unbiased opinions.
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I wouldn't say "live ammunition" is emotive (no more emotive than "injection"), just an imprecise way to cover the shooting option.

Plus, a lot of opinions are going to be biased one way or other - that aspect is unavoidable with an emotive subject like this.
 
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