Pts - injection or live ammunition

The knackerman can arrange cremation, either indiviudal or a group and you can have ashes if you'd like.

My personal view is that the hounds may as well make use of the body, in the same way that I am on the organ doner register - someone may as well make use of my parts when I don't need them any more. A body is not the person/ animal - again very much IMHO
 
Polos Mum said:
I suspect the cases people have experienced (and my personal dog experience) are where the overdose isn't sufficient or isn't given sufficiently quickly or the aminals system is so compromised that it isn't reaching the brain quickly enough
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That could well be the case.

So it would be true to say:

Injection works really well when done properly, but like any procedure things can go wrong. However, the chances of it going wrong are very small.
Shooting works really well when done properly, but like any procedure things can go wrong. However, the chances of it going wrong are very small.

There may be other perfectly good reasons to favour one or the other, but the decision shouldn't be made solely on the basis that one or other is inherently unreliable because that just isn't true. We can try to find out whether injection is more or less reliable than shooting in terms of how often things go wrong (assuming the things we see are not misinterpreted). I think that would be useful - if there are reliable statistics available. Anecdotal reports, especially ones heard secondhand, are of limited value compared to properly gathered statistics.
 
Hi I have used both it depends entirely on the horse.

Bliss was pts via injection as she was extremely headshy so the gun was not an option however, she went very peacefully.

Harley was pts via gun as he hated injection and vets so was the kindest way this was so quick and peacefull.

Harry was pts by injection but it was so traumatic it put me off vets and the injection for a long time.

Skye was put pts via the gun this was so quick and peaceful.

Overall I'd say I prefer the gun as iv always found it to be so quick but there are only a couple of people I'd trust to do this one of whom has now retired, the injection I would use only if I had to, due to bad experiences in the past however, for some horses like bliss it was the kindest way. I don't think one is kinder than the other necessarily it depends largely on the horse and the person who does it! :-(
 
I have had 1 shot (free bullet) and two by injection.

The one that was shot was actually planned, and the two injections were emergencies.

Really I think the outcome is the same, there is nothing to get hung up about. All three went quickly and with dignity. If you have the luxury of knowing in advance and being able to plan that's one thing. In an emergency I'll take whatever is going. I really have no preference.
 
fburton said:
Live ammunition may be used, but there are obvious restrictions on location.
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Ok what I meant to be more precise is that the choice for most people is normally the injection route via your vet or a bolt via the hunt or a 'knackerman'. Most individuals cannot choose 'live ammunition', but I appreciate that farmers and huntsmen with high powered guns could do the job themselves.
 
Neither method is ideal. It is a horrible experience whether it goes well or not. I haven't seen a horse shot first hand, but have seen several injections. The last two injection were not very nice though I am not sure how aware the horses were. One mare looked very startled as she fell to the ground, ears pricked and eyes wide as if terrified. She then did not move again, but gasped for several minutes before her heart stopped.

Then the last one I saw, my beloved mare, was quicker as once she hit the ground she did not breath again but she did paddle her legs for a few seconds (two or three at the most) so it was not quite as 'peaceful' as I had wished for and I really don't know if she was aware at the time (the vet said not) though I am not totally convinced.

But a good friend of mine once witnessed a shooting that went wrong and the pony was badly wounded but not killed by the bullet. It was out hunting and several people had to wrestle the poor thing to the ground to enable it to be despatched.

I have heard many other similar stories.

So... what would I choose the next time? I think I would still go with the injection, as I would rather have to inject twice than shoot twice. It's a horrible thing to go through though. My mare's death is like a video that plays over and over in my memory. For me, it would have been better had I not seen it. But I had to be there for her in the end and could never have forgiven myself if I hadn't. Suffice to say, I am dreading the next time.
 
Sampson.rebecca said:
Its for my university in Equitation science behaviour nd training. subject is on welfare and codes of practices, for my interactive portfolio i chose to go into the welfare and reasons why people feel each method is kinder for the horse :)
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I think as long it is quick I don't think either is more 'kind' to the horse, the method chosen is more down to the owner, be it for peace of mind, convenience or the method of disposal required.
 
YasandCrystal said:
Ok what I meant to be more precise is that the choice for most people is normally the injection route via your vet or a bolt via the hunt or a 'knackerman'. Most individuals cannot choose 'live ammunition', but I appreciate that farmers and huntsmen with high powered guns could do the job themselves.
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Vets also sometimes use live ammunition.
 
There is necessarily blood with the bullet, sometimes quite a lot. That is going to upset some people. But there can be movement (as mentioned) after the injection. Frankly, although I know it is nonsense, that movement upsets me!

I could definitely load and fire a second shot in a tenth of the time it would take to reload a syringe and guns are something I've used all my life and am comfortable with. I can understand that many won't be. Nobody enjoys the experience. Personally, I find I have to "switch off" my brain and think of something else. I go into a similar mental state when manually lambing a ewe! Don't dwell on the task, just get on with it. As a student, I'd black out at the smell of fresh blood -- then wake up half a minute later and continue.... Whimp!:o
 
If I was a vet, I would have a second loaded syringe ready just in case. Yes it would mean a bit more expense, but better that than having to reload a syringe in a fraught situation.
 
Dry Rot said:
There is necessarily blood with the bullet, sometimes quite a lot. That is going to upset some people. But there can be movement (as mentioned) after the injection. Frankly, although I know it is nonsense, that movement upsets me!
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I don't think it's nonsense to be upset. We don't truly know that the horse is not aware at the time and struggling against the pain of a heart attack as essentially, the injection contains two drugs. One to cause rapid unconsciousness, the other to stop the heart (supposedly in that order). But how are we to know what the horse feels? I think it is perfectly possible that sometimes the heart attack comes before the horse is fully unconscious.

HOWEVER, there is also movement after a horse is shot. It is exactly the same type of movement. We do not know for certain (because obviously we have not experienced it) that this movement is post mortem. In fact, why is it that MORE often than not there is paddling of the legs after a horse has been shot, but with the injection it is relatively rare? I would argue that the horse is possibly aware with both the gun and the injection for a few moments afterwards and it is not so instant as we like to think, though I really hate to think of it like that.
 
Both of my mares were pts by injection. The first time it was through choice as we knew when it was going to happen. The whole process was very calm and she lay back and then went down.

My last mare I lost back in November in a nightmare situation where she had broken her leg in the field. When I arrived she had already been sedated, but the vet had realised she had forgotten her equipment and had to go back and get it (turns out it gave me a chance for a goodbye so that was a bit of fate.) I was anxious it might be a bullet due to the situation but it turns out that the vets up here all actually now use the injection as their primary method of euthanasia.

This time was rather more dramatic as she was fighting it so she hit the floor in a way that you would get with the bullet, but I had fully expected this to happen because that was her to the bitter end so personally I wasn't traumatised.

I was also with a big lad a few years ago as he was injected too. He was already down and pretty much just needed help on his way.

What struck me about the recent experiences as to supposed to with my first mare, who was pts 12 years ago, is that there seems to be much more in the way of stuff injected into them. Last two times it seems to have been never ending but the first time wasn't like that at all.

Anyway, either way has the same consequence for the horse, but I guess for those around the injection feels less traumatic. It does entirely depend on the situation.
 
I had a pony PTS by the hunt at the end of September last year. It was done quickly and although I wasn't there, my friend said she knew nothing about it. My curiosity got the better of me and I did go and have a look at where she fell, we did it on a grassy patch away from our other ponies. I was expecting to find a lot of blood and didn't.

I have a needle phobic 14.2 who's 21 and very well at present. After having Poppy PTS I have changed my mind about how I want him to go if/when I have to make that decision. It's a hard enough decision to make in the first place so I would like peace of mind that at the end the pony knows nothing about it and doesn't stress.

It is down to the individual owner and their experiences but personally I am hoping to avoid the injection for my ponies.
 
I was told that the reason for less instances of paddling of the legs when injected is down to the cocktail of drugs as body has been numbed to a certain extent, which obviously doesn't happen with shooting.

The last one I witness was put down by injection (emergency following trauma in the field), it took over an hour and was eventually shot. I realise that mistakes can be made for both but that afternoon is etched on my mind so I'd choose shooting.
 
Wagtail said:
I don't think it's nonsense to be upset. We don't truly know that the horse is not aware at the time and struggling against the pain of a heart attack as essentially, the injection contains two drugs. One to cause rapid unconsciousness, the other to stop the heart (supposedly in that order). But how are we to know what the horse feels? I think it is perfectly possible that sometimes the heart attack comes before the horse is fully unconscious.
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Well, it's not quite the same as what is commonly described as a "heart attack". The chest and referred pain that people feel when a coronary vessel becomes blocked is due to myocardial ischaemia and is transmitted through neural pathways to the brain. The person is still fully conscious at this stage and the heart is usually still beating. So the angina pain generated in this situation can indeed be a protracted and (invariably) unpleasant experience.

If the heart is stopped by a drug (or by going into fibrillation suddenly), cardiac output and blood pressure falls very rapidly and the person loses consciousness because the brain is no longer receiving the oxygen it needs. If consciousness is lost, pain cannot be felt because there is no conscious mind to register it. So in a sense(!) pain ceases to exist.

Often, the anaesthetic overdose (usually barbiturate) is given without the heart-stopping drug, so as long as it reaches the brain in a sufficient dose (why wouldn't it?) we can be pretty darn sure that consciousness is lost. I believe we can trust that assumption because it is what decades of experience, and experimental neuroscience, has taught us.

The paddling of the legs, which sometimes occurs and is understandably distressing to see (especially if it is interpreted as a conscious, voluntary action), is due to residual spinal activity that occur after the brain is silenced. I do not know for sure why paddling would be more common after shooting than after injection, but one plausible explanation would be that destruction of the brain leaves the spinal cord, which is still being supplied with blood from a beating heart, to "do its thing", whereas the injected anaesthetic will hit the brain first but then be circulated to the spinal tissue too where it will inhibit activity there, stopping the movements.
 
Having sat with my pony while his body shut down and died, ANYTHING is preferable to that! He appeared to have been suffocating after several seizures (probable liver failure). He was literally gasping for breath and I was watched and held him while he went blue and died. All the while he was galloping while lying down but the second he took his last breath his legs stopped....

I would usually choose injection as I've seen a gun job gone wrong and only peaceful injections but if a gun was all that was on offer then so be it.
 
I've seen two injections and both were peaceful. The first was planned on a two year old with a very nasty leg injury that was clearly not going to heal. She was a friend's youngster, although I had spent a lot of time with her. Friend couldn't bear to be with her so I said I'd do it for her. I was dreading it, but it was nowhere near as bad as I expected. She was sedated first as her owner didn't want her to have an idea what was going on. We were warned this could make it take longer but it was still quick. The only thing that upset me was I didn't take her headcollar off and the way she fell I couldn't get it off afterwards. I didn't like the thought of her being buried in her headcollar. (Not a very rational reaction, but I'm glad that's all it was and there were no other regrets) This was in the days when you could bury them.

The second was my boy and was an emergency. He was 27 and had colic. He was already on his way and all the vet had to do was give him a helping hand. He was already lying down so I didn't have the trauma of watching him fall but he did stiffen up - almost like some sort of seizure - before going very limp. His head was in my lap and I could see it was just a physical reaction there was no stress in his eyes. Again I was warned that as his heart rate had slowed so much, it could take a while, but it was very quick, a matter of seconds.

I was pleased I had seen it with another horse before having to do it with my beloved boy (I loved the little one, but it wasn't the same with her) as I knew what to expect and, when everything was happening so quickly, at least I could recognise what was going on in front of me. I would opt for injection again for this reason (I hate even good surprises) and because my experiences of it so far have been as good as you can hope it would be. I'm not sure I would cope with the noise and blood of shooting.

I also think that although there may be more scope for an injection to not work straight away, as it's an overdose of anaesthetic, the consequences of it not working are less devastating than a bullet not doing its job. It might look terrible but surely it can't cause pain like a bullet. Let's face it, neither is nice.
 
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_HP_ said:
Having sat with my pony while his body shut down and died, ANYTHING is preferable to that! He appeared to have been suffocating after several seizures (probable liver failure). He was literally gasping for breath and I was watched and held him while he went blue and died. All the while he was galloping while lying down but the second he took his last breath his legs stopped....
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How awful for you! :frown3: Was there a vet there and did he/she not say anything by way of explanation? What looks like "gasping for breath", sometimes referred to as "agonal gasping", may occur due to residual activity in respiratory centres low in the brainstem and does not necessarily mean that the animal or person is conscious (or even alive in the normal sense). Both gasping and leg movements may occur for some time after consciousness is lost. If this was a euthanasia, the vet really should have explained that!
 
Both of mine were PTS by injection by my dad.

The first time I chose injection, selfishly I thought it would be easier to witness. I obviously cannot say that bullet would have been easier, I think I just didn't know what exactly to expect.

Second time round I didn't want injection, but my pony was still in discomfort despite being heavily sedated and my dad was worried that she would be fully conscious again by the time a marksman was able to make it out. Hers was very peaceful, she was already lying down so I was able to hold her head in my arms until she was gone.

I would not rule out either method. If I was in the situation where I had a horse in agony and the only person to get to me quickly would be a marksman then I would use that method, and vice versa. I am not set against either, so in an emergency I would use whichever could reach me first.
 
I've not read through all the posts and I know it doesn't answer OPs original question but it seems to me people have a lack of understanding about what actual happenes in either case, two things to consider

1) After being shot there will still be a lot of thrashing, noise etc. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING! I know it looks dreadful but it's because the destruction of the brain happens so quickly nerve impulses all over the body continue to fire and cause random rapid movements. The horse is NOT aware what is happening. If you use the correct weapon, ammunition and technique it is border line impossible to mess it up and the horse is guaranteed to be brain dead before it hits the ground.

2) Lethal injection appears more peaceful but it takes longer to kill the animal because it supresses respiratory effort and the horse essentially asphyxiates and passes out as a result of oxygen deprivation. The time this takes is widely variable depending on the genetics, stress levels, size etc of the animal in question and no one can truly tell you what the animal experiences during that time. If you are asking for Lethal injection check you vet uses Barbituates these are the only drugs which shut down the brain first, they are more expensive and need a licence so vets often opt for other alternatives, in which case your horse IS AWARE what is happening.


There are horror stories from both sides and someone who is inexperienced or sloppy can make a mess of either technique. There are also specific reasons to opt for one or the other (needle phobia/being head shy). As a general rule of thumb, all things being equal I would have the kennel man and gun. I have been in the unenviable position of holding 6 horse that have been PTS using both methods.
 
ajn1610 said:
2) Lethal injection appears more peaceful but it takes longer to kill the animal because it supresses respiratory effort and the horse essentially asphyxiates and passes out as a result of oxygen deprivation. The time this takes is widely variable depending on the genetics, stress levels, size etc of the animal in question and no one can truly tell you what the animal experiences during that time. If you are asking for Lethal injection check you vet uses Barbituates these are the only drugs which shut down the brain first, they are more expensive and need a licence so vets often opt for other alternatives, in which case your horse IS AWARE what is happening.
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Nowadays virtually all vets use somulose which has two drugs, one of which is a barbiturate, the other a local anaesthetic which in large doses shuts down the heart. Somulose therefore causes a rapid loss of consciousness followed by the suppression of breathing and heart.
 
fburton said:
How awful for you! :frown3: Was there a vet there and did he/she not say anything by way of explanation? What looks like "gasping for breath", sometimes referred to as "agonal gasping", may occur due to residual activity in respiratory centres low in the brainstem and does not necessarily mean that the animal or person is conscious (or even alive in the normal sense). Both gasping and leg movements may occur for some time after consciousness is lost. If this was a euthanasia, the vet really should have explained that!
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This happened while waiting for the vet. I found him rammed into the fencing roaring and struggling for breath and called vet immediately. He then had a couple of seizures( eye's rolled back, neck bent right back , fitting on the ground) and got up and walked in between them while roaring/ nostrils flared, wide eyed.... eventually couldn't get up and everything appeared to shut down. His breathing was very loud, eyes wide, galloping legs, weeing ,His tongue went blue and he eventually stopped breathing. Vet said likely liver failure. I was so shocked I didnt really ask any questions.
I like to think he was unaware / out of it for the most part....
 
ajn1610 said:
2) Lethal injection appears more peaceful but it takes longer to kill the animal because it supresses respiratory effort and the horse essentially asphyxiates and passes out as a result of oxygen deprivation.
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If by "passes out" you mean loses consciousness then what you wrote is emphatically wrong. The horse loses all consciousness because of the effect of barbiturates on the brain. When unconscious the horse will not be feeling anything, by definition. Death by whatever cause, or however it is defined (usually heart stopping permanently), follows after loss of consciousness.

Barbiturates may be used in combination with sedatives, either separately or together as in Somulose. However, to my knowledge, barbiturates are always used for injection euthanasia of horses.
 
_HP_ said:
This happened while waiting for the vet. I found him rammed into the fencing roaring and struggling for breath and called vet immediately. He then had a couple of seizures( eye's rolled back, neck bent right back , fitting on the ground) and got up and walked in between them while roaring/ nostrils flared, wide eyed.... eventually couldn't get up and everything appeared to shut down. His breathing was very loud, eyes wide, galloping legs, weeing ,His tongue went blue and he eventually stopped breathing. Vet said likely liver failure. I was so shocked I didnt really ask any questions.
I like to think he was unaware / out of it for the most part....
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So it was as the result of a terrible accident. You have my deepest sympathy. It's really not possible to know for sure what a horse would feel in such a situation. All one can hope for is that the electrolyte balance was so upset (and it could well have been) that it caused seizure activity in the brain that would have blocked normal conscious processes, in which case the horse really would have been out of it most of the time. A speculation, I admit, but it is certainly possible.
 
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