PTS: InjectVsShooting

E

elzie18xx

Member
Joined
14 April 2013
Messages
11
Visit site
Just out of curiosity, I'm not in a situation to put a horse to sleep and hope I never will be but would like to know the pros and cons of both ways of humane slaughter in horses. I know both can go drastically wrong in certain situations and clearly if you have a headshy horse the injection would be better and if you had a horse scared of needles shooting would be better but just generally what are the good and bad points of each?
 
From the point of view of the horse, when dead is dead, it doesn't really matter how it gets there.

There's no question, that a horse which is under serious stress, may find that a lethal injection is inefficient. A horse which is thrashing about, again would be difficult to get a line into, and the sedatives and lethal dose may take much longer to work, if at all, with secondary doses being used.

I've never administered a lethal injection to a horse, but have held many whilst they've received the final kindness. I've shot all of those horses which I've put down, and it's the method which I prefer. If I never shoot another horse, that will suit me just fine. I hate the job, but take a strange sort of pride in never having had to use a second cartridge, and I've always taken a pride in doing it properly.

My own preference would always be that a horse be shot, though I've seen horses which have been injected, gently sink to the ground as their life slips away.

These debates crop up on here, on a fairly regular basis, and I'm not sure that minds are ever changed about the preferred method!!

Alec.
 
Shot everytime but it needs to be carried out by a Competent Vet, I have heard some bad stories about some inexperienced Vets. It is usualy better done by a Huntsman or licensed Horse Slaughterer who gets more regular practice.
My old Horse Vet who Has Sadly now retired always stated Shooting a horse properly is an art but the kindest method to PTS.
 
Shot by my vet then taken by hunt.
I prefer the vet as if I feel at the time they need a bit of sedation they can have some, I also hate the thought of seeing the hunt wagon arriving while the horse was still alive.
I' ve seen injection as well seen a couple of not peaceful ends so that's not for my horses.
But it's a personal thing , you need to find your own way.
 
Although shooting sounds worse, in a sense (as a human I think I'd choose an injection for myself ahead of a bullet!) I have to admit I've always preferred the gun for horses. A lot depends on where you are, of course. A vet experienced in shooting horses will do it perfectly. Where I live there is a lion park within a reasonable distance; their chap is fantastic, and has literally shot several hundred horses. He puts down a bucket of feed first, and ensures no other animals are nearby to be traumatised.

In the olden days :rolleyes: we were taught to shoot from the age of 6 or 7 so that in an emergency we would be able to put an animal out of its misery. We were taught that you should draw a chalk cross, ear to eye, on the horse, and aim for the intersection. I don't know if this is correct. I DO know, from experience :eek: that a cow must be shot in the back of the head, just behind the horns.
 
Purely from the money point of view, it costs £150 - 180 here to have the horse taken away or shot and taken away. So to have them injected first by the vet costs about an additional £100. It's much more peaceful for the person who is there with them though. I'm doing one for a friend tomorrow :(
 
elzie18xx said:
Just out of curiosity, I'm not in a situation to put a horse to sleep and hope I never will be but would like to know the pros and cons of both ways of humane slaughter in horses. I know both can go drastically wrong in certain situations and clearly if you have a headshy horse the injection would be better and if you had a horse scared of needles shooting would be better but just generally what are the good and bad points of each?
Click to expand...

I had my elderly boy PTS a few weeks ago.

I chose injection as it was planned, he was used to the vet taking blood samples and I worried about blood coming from any tumours in his head (he had Cushing's).

The vet came and sedated him (not all do as it can slow the metabolism and make it all take longer) and when he was dopey I walked away and let my friend take over.
I was told by her and the vet that it was peaceful and he just went to sleep in the sun.
There was no noise and no stress for him.

It was the right choice for him.

However - I have seen a video posted by Heather Moffett somewhere of her experienced knackerman putting an elderly pony of hers to sleep.
The pony was led out of the stable, stroked and fussed by the knackerman until she was relaxed and happy. Then he quietly put the boltgun to her forehead and she drops instantly.
That was also a perfectly acceptable way to go. The pony knew nothing about it all.

It's made me thing that with an experienced hand - either way is acceptable and the choice should be down to what's the best thing for the individual horse and owner's circumstances.
 
cptrayes said:
I'm doing one for a friend tomorrow :(
Click to expand...

That is the mark of a true friend and I take my hat off to you and everyone who has done this for someone else.

I can't tell you how incredibly grateful I am that the final memory I have of Obi is him happily watching me walk away, thinking I was going back to the stable to bring him another treat.

My friend took over and I never had to watch him drop and I never saw him dead.

It would have tortured me to see it and I would be replaying it over and over again (like I am with my Mum's last few hours).

She took that pain away from me and I can never, ever repay that kindness (although the Dubarry handbag I bought her afterwards seemed to do the trick ;)).
 
Ancient Hacker said:
....... We were taught that you should draw a chalk cross, ear to eye, on the horse, and aim for the intersection. I don't know if this is correct. I DO know, from experience :eek: that a cow must be shot in the back of the head, just behind the horns.
Click to expand...

With a horse, you take the imaginary lines which you've described, but raise the point of aim, just a little. The important point is that the bullet mustn't enter the head, at a right angle to the skull. You can actually feel the correct point with your finger, it's a sort of cranial V, if that makes sense. It needs to enter the skull so that when it passes through the brain, the theory, though not always the practice, is that it then passes down the spinal column, and removes the need for pithing.

Cattle should also be shot from the front, not from above or behind (that's saved for sheep), with the imaginary line taken from the corner of the eye, to the horn, and exactly on the intersection of the cross. Again, the angle of bullet entry is vital.

The reason for frontal shooting is firstly that there's far less chance of a bullet exiting the animals head, and injuring the administrator, and secondly, as I've said, if the bullet can be persuaded to travel down the spinal column, then so much the better, though whether it does, or not, the result is the same, an irreversible state of oblivion.

If the above is tmi, then I apologise.

Alec.
 
Alex Swan
Thank you so much for that - Your comment re "if that is tmi, I apologise" I would respectfully suggest that this calibre of advice can NEVER be too much information on a thread such as this, which is clearly an objective discussion rather than an emotional debate.
Any information that the experienced members can give may one day save someone a terrible error one day!

With regard to the cow - I must admit my information was based on my having to shoot a neighbour's cow; she was already lying down and in extremis and I spoke the the vet and the Lion park man beforehand. In a lying down position the back and just behind the horns worked perfectly. A standing cow would, I'm sure, present a different requirement.

I take my hat off to those, such as members of the hunt, who render a compassionate service to those in need. Having to shoot an animal as an act of mercy - any animal - takes some courage, compassion, and a calm approach.
 
Oberon said:
That is the mark of a true friend and I take my hat off to you and everyone who has done this for someone else.

I can't tell you how incredibly grateful I am that the final memory I have of Obi is him happily watching me walk away, thinking I was going back to the stable to bring him another treat.

My friend took over and I never had to watch him drop and I never saw him dead.

It would have tortured me to see it and I would be replaying it over and over again (like I am with my Mum's last few hours).

She took that pain away from me and I can never, ever repay that kindness (although the Dubarry handbag I bought her afterwards seemed to do the trick ;)).
Click to expand...

Oh Oberon. Wish I could give you a hug right now :(.

P
 
Alec Swan said:
With a horse, you take the imaginary lines which you've described, but raise the point of aim, just a little. The important point is that the bullet mustn't enter the head, at a right angle to the skull. You can actually feel the correct point with your finger, it's a sort of cranial V, if that makes sense. It needs to enter the skull so that when it passes through the brain, the theory, though not always the practice, is that it then passes down the spinal column, and removes the need for pithing.

Cattle should also be shot from the front, not from above or behind (that's saved for sheep), with the imaginary line taken from the corner of the eye, to the horn, and exactly on the intersection of the cross. Again, the angle of bullet entry is vital.

The reason for frontal shooting is firstly that there's far less chance of a bullet exiting the animals head, and injuring the administrator, and secondly, as I've said, if the bullet can be persuaded to travel down the spinal column, then so much the better, though whether it does, or not, the result is the same, an irreversible state of oblivion.

If the above is tmi, then I apologise.

Alec.
Click to expand...

Alec - thank you very much for posting this . . . knowledge can never be a bad thing and you've helped me justify my preferred method of having Kal PTS when the time comes (as it will, inevitably).

I only hope that either I am strong enough to hold him myself when the time comes . . . or that, like Oberon, I have a kind and trusted friend to do the deed for me.

Wet eyed now . . .

P
 
My dad put both of mine to sleep by injection. He had wanted to get his friend (very experienced marksman) out to shoot Harry, but I thought having the injection would be easier.

I was wrong. Really wish I had listened to my dad, it was not pleasant. I had thought that seeing him shot would be too horrible, but I wish I had simply seen him go instantly.

When it came to Misty, I wanted her shot, but she was heavily sedated and anaesthatised and still in pain (aged 35). My dad pointed out that a marksman would take a couple of hours to get out to us, by which point the sedative and anaesthetic would have worn off. She was already lying down, so I held her head in my lap and talked to her, until it was all over. Her passing was very peaceful.

My dad has my eternal gratitude and respect for putting them both to sleep, we were both bawling our eyes out. He has never been able to stand seeing an animal in suffering and was able to put that above the fact that both were treasured members of the family. He has always done the same with all our other pets.

When I started reading this, I was going to say "shoot", but then thinking back over Misty's passing, I will now say it depends on the situation. I wish Harry had been shot, but apart from wishing she hadn't died (or had simply popped off in her sleep), I wouldn't have changed how Misty went.
 
Pinto was euthanized by injection, but he was already in hospital.

Due to having two collapsed jugular veins, both the sedative and euthanizing agent had to be administered in the subclavian vein (I think) just behind his "arm pit"

It was quite a difficult procedure, as he was down in the box and couldn't stand, which stressed the vets out - I was told very brusquely to wait out side.

It took a lot longer than I expected before I was allowed back in to see him, after death had been confirmed.

The only thing I regret about the whole thing... the vets left it too late to call me, knowing it would take me an hour to get to the hospital. But then again, they didn't expect me to want to be there either. Being a "mad English" covers all kinds of scenarios apparantly!
 
cptrayes said:
Purely from the money point of view, it costs £150 - 180 here to have the horse taken away or shot and taken away. So to have them injected first by the vet costs about an additional £100. It's much more peaceful for the person who is there with them though. I'm doing one for a friend tomorrow :(
Click to expand...

To update this post, I was really shocked at the cost of the vet. Over 200 quid to sedate the horse and give the lethal injection. That's on top of 150 to have the body taken away. And the man who does that would also have shot the horse for the same fee. So it was over 200 more to have the injection.

I had been thinking about having the next one I have to have done by injection because it's less 'violent' for the handler, but I've changed my mind. For a start there's the money, but the other thing is that although this mare went quietly, I was timing it and it took over a minute for her to drop. What she was conscious of I don't know, but unlike the other two I have seen done this way, she was determined to stay alive, swaying and shaking on her feet, as long as possible (she was a nervy, feisty horse and it also took a long time for the sedative to take hold). A minute is a long, long time to watch a horse die, I think I'd rather have the gunshot and be done with it.*

Still, all the credit today must go to the brave owner, a girl who allowed her young, talented, stunningly attractive and outwardly healthy mare to be given a pain free end. She had been going to give her away free as a brood mare, but the poor creature had back xrays with a hole in one vertebrae and the dorsal processes completely worn flat on another four, and she took the advice to allow the horse a quick death instead of years of pain.





* to balance this for people who are coming up to having to make a choice, feisty animals can also kick off the ground as they are shot, and although they are dead, the sight of the body cartwheeling or shooting across the yard is also very unpleasant. Most horses go quietly and easily whichever method is used.
 
Last edited:
cptrayes said:
To update this post, I was really shocked at the cost of the vet. Over 200 quid to sedate the horse and give the lethal injection. That's on top of 150 to have the body taken away. And the man who does that would also have shot the horse for the same fee. So it was over 200 more to have the injection.

I had been thinking about having the next one I have to have done by injection because it's less 'violent' for the handler, but I've changed my mind. For a start there's the money, but the other thing is that although this mare went quietly, I was timing it and it took over a minute for her to drop. What she was conscious of I don't know, but unlike the other two I have seen done this way, she was determined to stay alive, swaying and shaking on her feet, as long as possible (she was a nervy, feisty horse and it also took a long time for the sedative to take hold). A minute is a long, long time to watch a horse die, I think I'd rather have the gunshot and be done with it.*

Still, all the credit today must go to the brave owner, a girl who allowed her young, talented, stunningly attractive and outwardly healthy mare to be given a pain free end. She had been going to give her away free as a brood mare, but the poor creature had back xrays with a hole in one vertebrae and the dorsal processes completely worn flat on another four, and she took the advice to allow the horse a quick death instead of years of pain.





* to balance this for people who are coming up to having to make a choice, feisty animals can also kick off the ground as they are shot, and although they are dead, the sight of the body cartwheeling or shooting across the yard is also very unpleasant. Most horses go quietly and easily whichever method is used.
Click to expand...


I would disagree actually with it taking a long time to die by injection. Yes, they pass slowly but they are completely unconscious and it is much more like a natural death. I sat with my girl until the vet told me her heart had stopped. The man from the crem arrived not long after and as it wasn't my old girl there any more I just got in my car and drove away. There was no point staying any longer.

As for the cost, well I saved up and ring-fenced the money for quite some time. Compared to her monthly drug bill, it was rather cheap!
 
fatpiggy said:
I would disagree actually with it taking a long time to die by injection. Yes, they pass slowly but they are completely unconscious and it is much more like a natural death. I sat with my girl until the vet told me her heart had stopped. The man from the crem arrived not long after and as it wasn't my old girl there any more I just got in my car and drove away. There was no point staying any longer.

As for the cost, well I saved up and ring-fenced the money for quite some time. Compared to her monthly drug bill, it was rather cheap!
Click to expand...

I stood with a horse 8 hours ago which stayed on its feet quivering and fighting to stay on its feet for over a minute and it was not fun. That horse was not dead, or unconscious, it was still on its feet and staying there as long as it could. I don't know how much it knew, but I know I knew too much :(

I did make it clear that I have seen two others go much more easily with the injection, and it is rather upsetting to have a difficult experience that I went through only this morning, for a friend, dismissed by you like this :(


It sounds as if your mare was down already. I have been at three of these now with three different vets and in each case we were not allowed anywhere near the horse when it had the lethal dose put in, never mind sitting with it as its heart stopped.
 
Last edited:
Can't say I timed Harry, I was too busy bawling, but it wasn't speedy. Watching him fall down and having to stand back and to be able to do nothing but carry on watching was horrific.

Misty was quiet and already down and it felt a lot quicker and less traumatic. Agree that the mare must have been down already, I remember my dad injecting Harry and telling me to stand well back. They fall to the ground and can struggle quite a lot, you can't get close for fear of being struck.

TBH, you'll hear horror stories of it going horribly wrong either way. Best to cross your fingers and vainly hope that you'll simply go out to the stable one morning and they'll have popped off in their sleep.
 
fatpiggy said:
I would disagree actually with it taking a long time to die by injection. Yes, they pass slowly but they are completely unconscious and it is much more like a natural death. I sat with my girl until the vet told me her heart had stopped. The man from the crem arrived not long after and as it wasn't my old girl there any more I just got in my car and drove away. There was no point staying any longer.

As for the cost, well I saved up and ring-fenced the money for quite some time. Compared to her monthly drug bill, it was rather cheap!
Click to expand...


How many have you seen ?
I have three not nice exits at all done by injection I all cases the horses where on their feet definatly conscious and fighting to stay upright not at all peaceful not dignified and long very very long compared with being shot.
Now my own was the worse the horse fought to stay on its feet and screamed as it when down I was very shaken so was the vet who basically said never again and apologised saying they had pushed me to the injection because they had thought it would be 'nicer ' all round .
Weebarneys point is a good one and I think no it's probally the same however morally I feel it's different to inflict that on a horse to offer it a chance for life or a pain free life . I am not someone however who takes the desision to Inflict medical procedures on my horses lightly as I feel often what they are put through is not fair on a big movement dependant animal.
These things are personal you need to find your own way I tell the injection tale so anyone reading is prepared I was not it was my first horse I was very shocked it affected me for weeks.
 
weebarney said:
This may sound like a numpty question but is pts by injection any worse for the horse than being knocked out for an operation?
Click to expand...

They are sedated and then given a drug which stops their heart. Some vets don't sedate. Whichever way, it's difficult to know how it must feel to them to have their heart stop.

In a general anaesthetic they are just made to sleep. But I hate the loss of feeling as I fall asleep under a GA, so some horses probably hate that too, but it usually can't be avoided.

The horse I did yesterday was on its feet for more than a minute, but with a GA they are asleep in a few seconds. That's why I'll go for a bullet again next time I do one of my own, it's over in a fraction of a second.
 
weebarney said:
so why can they not GA then make heart stop?
Click to expand...

Exactly the question I asked my OH this morning. We think it is probably because some will kick or struggle when they are down and they may not be able to get close enough to safely get the lethal shot in.

Any vets on here who can give us the answer to this one, because I would be much more inclined to go for the jab if the horse was already down before you stop the heart???
 
Surely if there are problems with the lethal injection it is down to the dose given? I've only had one horse pts though and chose lethal injection. He just collapsed (legs crumpled) almost immediately. I happen to have a great fear of guns myself so choosing the bullet would be very hard for me.
 
elzie18xx said:
Just out of curiosity, I'm not in a situation to put a horse to sleep and hope I never will be but would like to know the pros and cons of both ways of humane slaughter in horses. I know both can go drastically wrong in certain situations and clearly if you have a headshy horse the injection would be better and if you had a horse scared of needles shooting would be better but just generally what are the good and bad points of each?
Click to expand...

This has been done to death "pardon the pun".

Injection every time. No gun for mine.
 
fatpiggy said:
I would disagree actually with it taking a long time to die by injection. Yes, they pass slowly but they are completely unconscious and it is much more like a natural death. I sat with my girl until the vet told me her heart had stopped. The man from the crem arrived not long after and as it wasn't my old girl there any more I just got in my car and drove away. There was no point staying any longer.

As for the cost, well I saved up and ring-fenced the money for quite some time. Compared to her monthly drug bill, it was rather cheap!
Click to expand...

I agree with you Its far more like natural death. You sound like me that is what I do put Money aside so when the time comes I have enough for the funeral service I use and believe in. ^5 to you .

I have before xmas lost my mare of a life time. This is what happened to her I sat there for at least 10 mins after cuddling and kissing her.
It was very peaceful way to go for her.
 
amandap said:
Surely if there are problems with the lethal injection it is down to the dose given? I've only had one horse pts though and chose lethal injection. He just collapsed (legs crumpled) almost immediately. I happen to have a great fear of guns myself so choosing the bullet would be very hard for me.
Click to expand...

Well I'm assuming it's the horse, not the vet, that makes the difference. I've seen three done by three different vets from the same practice. The first was sedated and dropped quite quickly. The second was not sedated and dropped like a stone but took around 5 minutes to lose the blink reflex and for the eyes to 'cloud over'. The third was yesterday.

I don't think it's the dose, I think the horses differ in their reaction to it. The horse yesterday was a big fighter/fretter day to day and perhaps that type of horse has a strong will to live.

I think both approaches are fine. I had one put down two weeks ago and he moved his head just as he was stunned. It was lucky they weren't using a bullet or a bolt gun, as I'm not sure it would have killed him. As it was, the slaughterman was able to stun him quickly again just after he hit the floor. We do the best we can, nothing will ever be perfect 100% of the time. It's still the greatest kindness we can do a sick or sad horse.


Like others, I'm not writing this because I think people should use one way or another, just so that they will know what might happen and not be devastated if everything is not as quiet and peaceful as they would have wished.
 
Last edited:
cptrayes said:
Well I'm assuming it's the horse, not the vet, that makes the difference. .......

....... It was lucky they weren't using a bullet or a bolt gun, as I'm not sure it would have killed him. As it was, the slaughterman was able to stun him quickly again just after he hit the floor.

........
Click to expand...

Para 1, I suspect that it can be either, or both, or the environment at the time, or the prevailing conditions. The Jockey Club, whilst wearing a rather PC hat, are trying to persuade those on-course vets that follow races, to put down stricken horses by lethal injection, and meeting with some resistance. I can't guarantee this, but I would be most surprised to find that ANY person dealing with an animal which is stricken, and under stress, wouldn't prefer to use a gun. Correctly administered and in as calm a fashion as possible, there isn't and there never has been, anything more certain.

Your second paragraph, and just out of interest, if your slaughterman didn't use a free bullet of a captive bolt pistol, what did he use?

Alec.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top