PTS problem

Not one of my own - because I would always use the hunt to pts - but I have witnessed and heard of several instances when the horse has been given an injection and it has got back up unfortunately - but I couldn't tell you statistically the percentage of injections that go wrong so to speak.
 
I agree, I'd always use our local huntsman but a friend has had a disastrous day, won't go into details, but I'm so often told by people that they'd never dream of having a horse shot, because it is cruel, they'd always have them put to sleep by injection because it's more humane. Not sure after today I'd have any patience with them.
 
Yes, my own and I didn't want her injected but the vet insisted. I have always had them shot before (and since). If you search on here you will find posts including my own. I'm not going to write it all again as I have done so several times but after what I saw I will never allow it again.
 
I'd say it's really awful if something went wrong but that it can and does go wrong occasionally using both methods.
A couple years ago my pony died naturally of probable liver failire while I was waiting for the vet...it wasn't quick ((40 minutes) Bank holiday)and was incredibly stressful for the pony and myself and I would take anything over that.
I've seen a pony shot and scramble back up to a sitting position before being shot again. I've not seen an injection go wrong so far.
I am having to have 2 ponies pts soon and will choose injection for them
 
Mooseontheloose said:
Has anyone experienced a problem with a horse being euthanazed by injection, when it hasn't worked?
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Nope _ I always use injection and everyone of mine and friends have gone peacefully asleep. It is the only was I would use no other for personal reasons

the gun however I have seen a messy and saw it go wrong before. I do not choose this option for this reason and other's
 
I'm another that's witnessed a shooting go wrong, I think the shooting done incorrectly is more traumatic for all concerned.
 
The only time I've had a horse put down by injection it was very quick and effective. However I have known of two others where the first dose was not enough. One was a very unfortunate case of a young horse with a badly broken leg in the middle of a field, so when the vet went back to the car to get more drugs it took minutes before he returned.

I prefer mine to be shot, although I have also known the gun fail to fire. The difference is that it was only me who suffered, the horse was simply mystified but not distressed.
 
I know of a horse who was old and the vet injected them. The girl who was holding the horse said the mare fought all the way and it was like she didn't want to die then.
 
There is always a risk that the injection won't work quite as well as you would hope. Just as unfortunately shooting can occasionally go wrong too. No method is perfect by any means. I know from experience.
 
I've seen the injection not work. I had a racehorse strike into its tendon at Newcastle and because the crowd are so close to the vets boxes they will not shoot there so they injected but it took 3 attempts as horse was so high on adrenalin. It was quite awful.

shooting is quick and I'm fortunate it's my friend who does it so that maybe eases the situation slightly.
 
I chose the injection for my old boy January last year, he has a fear of men, and I was concerned if i rang the company to come out to shoot him it might have been a man so thought the injection was the kindest way. He kept turning his head as if trying to pop the needle out of his neck and the blood was pumping out, when the injection was finally administered it did seem to take quite a while for him to go down, and when he did he tried to get up again, the vet and I had to kneel on his neck to keep him down, although he was peaceful and i think it was a last instinct to try and remain standing, i would never choose an injection again, as this sight has remained with me since, although the vet did say afterwards that his circulation was incredibly poor, which in my opinion is why it seemed to take quite a while for him to pass.
 
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "didn't work"

Lethal injection isn't instantaneous due to the size of the horse, and it takes time for the drugs to be circulated and reach the heart. There is almost always a nervous reaction after the heart stops, and it can range from lips quivering to deep "breaths" to the horse almost sitting up/rolling over. It doesn't mean to say that the injection hasn't worked, it is just the last of the nerves firing and the animal isn't aware of anything at this point (though it can be extremely distressing for the owner/handler and vet.

My own boy had to be injected into the belly vein behind the elbow after both his jugulars had collapsed (he was in extremis when the vet came). As that vein is much smaller than the juglars, the drugs have to be given more slowly, and it took a long time for Pinto to die, despite him being so ill.
 
Mooseontheloose said:
Has anyone experienced a problem with a horse being euthanazed by injection, when it hasn't worked?
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I think in the 'olden days' the drugs were different and there were more problems with working out the dosages, also if horses were on other drugs at the time they were PTS this could cause additional problems. But these days the drugs they use are stronger, have had more research into them, and I think any complications are much rarer.

My vets always said at the end of the day they are technically dead before they hit the floor, whether you choose to shoot or inject.
 
Casey76 said:
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "didn't work"

Lethal injection isn't instantaneous due to the size of the horse, and it takes time for the drugs to be circulated and reach the heart. There is almost always a nervous reaction after the heart stops, and it can range from lips quivering to deep "breaths" to the horse almost sitting up/rolling over. It doesn't mean to say that the injection hasn't worked, it is just the last of the nerves firing and the animal isn't aware of anything at this point (though it can be extremely distressing for the owner/handler and vet..
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These effects are called agonal gasping. I had a horse put down with lethal injection -I was not present as the horse had wobblers and it was considered too dangerous as he was totally uncoordinated in his movements although I was in the waiting room at the hospital whilst it was carried out. I elected to see his body after he was put down but was not warned about any reflex movements or sounds and I found the whole experience terribly distressing to the point that it plunged me into a depression and took me a long time to get over his death. I was assured that the animal was dead but it was horrific seeing his tummy and flank flickering and hear him grunting. The first grunt coincided with my hand touching his neck as I crouched down to stroke him and this totally freaked me out as I believed he knew I was there and he was trying to communicate with me. In the end I wrote to Horse & Rider magazine and they did a massive three page reply to me about this and explained that this grunting is called agonal gasping and is nothing to do with 'agony' in the sense we know it. It is merely a reflex action of the body shutting down and the air releasing from the lungs and vocal cords. The horse is unconscious and out of pain and totally unaware of what has happened to it. Sometimes the horse will make paddling movements with its legs.

Apparently this can take place up to ten minutes after death. I would never ever see my horse again so soon after death, I would wait for a while until any danger of agonal reflexes had stopped.

Apparently it can (in some circumstances) take up to 30 seconds for a horse to sink to the floor when injected, and can take up to two minutes for its heart to stop beating.

I agree with Casey 76 and think people have got mixed up with agonal gasping and have thought that the horse was resisting euthanasia or somehow it wasn't working properly.

Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...a-riot-(Euthanasia)/page2#5ty6LReq7yvwvuvY.99
 
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I don't want to go into details of what happened, except to say that it was not last gasping, threshing or twitching, it really didn't work and ended up with the animal having to be disposed of with a humane killer.
 
Partly reiterating what applecart14 wrote... There may be an issue with how injections are perceived because two completely different scenarios are liable to get lumped together as one. In the first scenario, the injection works as it should - a massive overdose of fresh and fully effective drug goes into the vein, reaches the brain and causes total loss of consciousness so that 'physiological dying' (in practice, the heart ceasing to beat) can take its course with the horse already incapable of suffering - but there are sometimes accompanying involuntary reactions including gasping and 'paddling' of the legs that are unpleasant to see. It can look like the horse is fighting the anaesthetic, but this isn't what is happening. Then there is a second scenario in which something goes wrong - the drug is off, the dose is wrong, the needle or (preferably) catheter isn't in the vein, the horse's pulse is so poor (e.g. due to heart failure) that it takes much longer than normal for the drug to reach the brain. This second outcome is much rarer, just as mistakes in shooting are also very rare. And yet there are potentially enough similarities in the reporting of these two cases that people may be forgiven for mistaking the first for the second. That's why it is important for the vet to explain what may happen during euthanasia and what it means, so that owners are prepared and hopefully reassured. Of course, this does not mean that people who are unfortunate enough to have witnessed the second, awful scenario are unaware of the difference - that is definitely not what I'm saying.
 
fburton said:
Partly reiterating what applecart14 wrote... There may be an issue with how injections are perceived because two completely different scenarios are liable to get lumped together as one. In the first scenario, the injection works as it should - a massive overdose of fresh and fully effective drug goes into the vein, reaches the brain and causes total loss of consciousness so that 'physiological dying' (in practice, the heart ceasing to beat) can take its course with the horse already incapable of suffering - but there are sometimes accompanying involuntary reactions including gasping and 'paddling' of the legs that are unpleasant to see. It can look like the horse is fighting the anaesthetic, but this isn't what is happening. Then there is a second scenario in which something goes wrong - the drug is off, the dose is wrong, the needle or (preferably) catheter isn't in the vein, the horse's pulse is so poor (e.g. due to heart failure) that it takes much longer than normal for the drug to reach the brain. This second outcome is much rarer, just as mistakes in shooting are also very rare. And yet there are potentially enough similarities in the reporting of these two cases that people may be forgiven for mistaking the first for the second. That's why it is important for the vet to explain what may happen during euthanasia and what it means, so that owners are prepared and hopefully reassured. Of course, this does not mean that people who are unfortunate enough to have witnessed the second, awful scenario are unaware of the difference - that is definitely not what I'm saying.
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Think that explains it much better than me. Can I ask you fburton (as you sound like you are a vet/vet nurse) what would you want for your horse if it was say
a) a road traffic accident with the adrenalin factor being present, for example a horse in 'an agitated state of being'
b) a horse who illness/injuries meant it has to be pts and it was 'calm in its stable' type of situation,
c) horse in chronic heart failure?

I would say that example A would differ from example B and C from B and therefore a different method may be employed for each (or am I wrong to assume that). Having had a horse shot twice and then lied to by my vet about the reason it was shot twice (he missed the first time but told me it was standard practice to shoot large horses of 16.3hh twice) I would be really reluctant for my present horse to be shot. Plus if I am being absolutely honest I could not see myself personally there at the end if it had to be shot whereas I could if it had to be pts with injection but then that is ignorance on my part maybe.

I am just curious to know from a professional (which I assume you are). Thanks for your help x
 
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applecart14 said:
Having had a horse shot twice and then lied to by my vet about the reason it was shot twice (he missed the first time but told me it was standard practice to shoot large horses of 16.3hh twice) I would be really reluctant for my present horse to be shot. x
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You poor poor thing. Thats an absolutely shocking lie to be told and at such an emotional time when you're relying on a professional being professional!!
 
orbvalley said:
You poor poor thing. Thats an absolutely shocking lie to be told and at such an emotional time when you're relying on a professional being professional!!
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I had a sneaking suspicion at the time that I was being lied to. I was in the vicinity and had rounded the corner away from eye line of the horse and heard the shots, one and then another fifteen to twenty seconds maybe a bit longer after the first. Roll on 14 years later I went to a livery yard to enquire about moving my present horse from the one I'd been at for many years and the woman running the yard was a livery who had been at the first yard whilst I'd been there with the horse that was shot. We got talking about the old times and then she said "nasty business that was about your Mikki" and I said "Elaine I know what you're going to say, you are about to confirm what I think I have already known all these years but not believed to be true" and sure enough she said that the vet had missed and had had to shoot my lovely young horse twice. I can remember after Mikki was shot (had compound fracture of tibia) that the YO who had been holding the horse for the vet very shakily passed me on the yard and said he had to go into the house for a stiff brandy. At the time I thought, bless him he is shocked having a horse pts. Now I know the real reason why and not entirely surprised he was in great need of that brandy.

It was the same vets practice that mis diagnosed my previous horse with EHV when he had wobblers and the woman vet clapped her hands in glee when she told me she was excited that she'd be the first vet to diagnose EHV in the midlands and could write her thesis about it. All in all not a very honourable veterinary practice, nor very ethical or with any empathy! :(

Glad to say I have another vets and have had them for last 11 years.

Sorry to hijack thread OP x
 
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This whole thread is just so shocking to me.
I thank you all for you sharing as I have no experience of PTS but sure enough one day it will be my turn. At least I'll have an idea of what could happen in the worst scenario's.
My deepest sympathies go out to you all.
 
Personally, I've only had one horse PTS with injection - he was young but dying rapidly so the drugs just pushed him over the edge. In the event of an accident, where the horse was young and healthy I would shoot - especially if their adrenaline was up. I know our vets don't like to use a gun though. I guess the other option is heavy sedation first then the lethal injection - at least the horse is in a calmer state before PTS
 
springtime1331 said:
Personally, I've only had one horse PTS with injection - he was young but dying rapidly so the drugs just pushed him over the edge. In the event of an accident, where the horse was young and healthy I would shoot - especially if their adrenaline was up. I know our vets don't like to use a gun though. I guess the other option is heavy sedation first then the lethal injection - at least the horse is in a calmer state before PTS
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I would never ask a vet to shoot a horse. They don't have enough practice to be anywhere near as good as the Hunt or knackerman, who are the people that I always get out. I have had 2 horses pts by injection (years apart, different vets) and, although nothing actually went wrong, I do not intend to have any more injected.
 
Firstly. sorry to all those who had bad experiences with Injection/gun

Back in the 80's I saw many a horse pts by the gun as it was the only option at this time, the first time I heard of an injection was a program called *IT'S A VET'S LIFE* many are too young here to remember it, well I saw the vet put down a grey pony who just dropped and went to sleep. This gave me the incite to what would happen if I ever had my own horse which I did 4 years later. My first mare did fight a bit but I look at it as she went down a fighter to the end. She was down on the ground anyway and could not get up ( don't know what happened )

The experiences I had with the gun were messy, and like applecart said one was shot twice as the first one went out near his ear ( wont say what append as it was gross. )


I want my animals by injection as to me they have injections yearly anyway + any extra sedative ones. My choice that I don't want to hear or see the after math of my beloved horses left on the ground. With the injection there was no aftermath so I was there to the end in all three cases


It is a very touchy subject as some want ashes some want recycling - there will always be the odd one on either choice that does not go according to plan.
 
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I've known both 'go wrong' too. Luckily not with mine. We had a pretty traumatic couple of years where we lost four oldies, and, although I have no issues with either method, we had them all injected for the sole reason that a) it meant the vet they were familiar with could do it and b) they were being done in sight of their field mates so we needed it to be very quiet. One of them in particular reacted so suddenly to the injection that it was like he'd been shot - that did surprise me a bit but not in a bad way, as it was very quick and immediate. The others were more as you would expect the injection to go.

All any of us can hope for is an experienced practitioner and to be guided by them.
 
Most vets (unless ex army or similar) will be massively more familiar with injection than with shooting.

Would add that a horse that is down or ataxic is less likely to be a good candidate for the gun method the right bit of the brain needs to line up to work.

Circulatory compromise or toxaemia may make the injection more difficult but usually even if there are some lingering reactions the horse is at least heavily anaestetised. Sensible vets will listen to the heart stop and then double check shortly after - it has been known to restart.

Racing decisions are often inflenced by practical and safety considerations (another faller at same fence, location of crowd/public road too close).

It's not easy at the best of times and neither option is perfect - generally though I'd get the vet to use the method they're most comfortable with in the circumstances. *
 
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