PTS problem

Thank you for your replies. I have only once had a horse put down by injection but he was already down and nearly gone and it was very quick. Luckily our knackerman is a horseman and sensitive to owner's situation and the horses I have had to have put down have been totally calm and relaxed at the end, and it's been fine. There is always, of course, some blood and so on, but if you're ready with some thing to cover it up with quickly it needn't be distressing.
The one thing that this does impress upon me and it is some thing that many horseowners won't face, is that it will happen to most of us if we keep horses long enough. Firstly make the decision before it becomes an emergency if at all possible, even if the horse looks perky and happy, it's better to go like that than allow it to become sick and traumatised.
Secondly, have your emergency plan so you know what to do, who to call, what you would want done with the body etc. When you're in a shocked or upset state it is all much more difficult.
Morbid subject but one we should be much more prepared for and open about.
Let's hope we all have a long time with our animals before having to face it, but when we do we know what to do.
 
applecart14 said:
Think that explains it much better than me. Can I ask you fburton (as you sound like you are a vet/vet nurse) what would you want for your horse if it was say
a) a road traffic accident with the adrenalin factor being present, for example a horse in 'an agitated state of being'
b) a horse who illness/injuries meant it has to be pts and it was 'calm in its stable' type of situation,
c) horse in chronic heart failure?
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I am not a vet, but have worked with, taught and supervised vets academically. My expertise relevant to this topic is in cardiac, and to a lesser extent respiratory, physiology. I've also had hands-on experience with anaesthesia and euthanasia procedures.

To answer your question, knowing what I know and have experience of, my personal preference is for injection. However, there may be circumstances where shooting is preferable, and I certainly wouldn't criticize anyone for choosing shooting over injection if there were issues around e.g. carcase disposal.

If the horse was agitated and behaving dangerously, I would make every effort to bring that under control before attempting euthanasia by either method. Otherwise, I don't think 'adrenaline' is really a factor to consider, because it won't stop the horse losing consciousness after injection. The possibility of an animal 'fighting' the anaesthetic is sometimes raised, but I don't see how that can apply with an anaesthetic overdose by injection, and none of the vets I have asked about this has been able to confirm this is a possibility or said how it might occur - the barbiturate is going to reach the brain and cause loss of consciousness whatever happens, as long as enough drug is in the blood stream and the heart is still working (and if the heart stopped, consciousness would be lost anyway due to brain hypoxia). Horses fighting/abreacting to sedation is an entirely different matter, of course.

In a road traffic accident, there may be a safety issue with shooting due to proximity to members of the public, as Wishful mentioned.

Although heart failure may affect the time taken for an overdose of anaesthetic to work (or it may not, depending on the individual), I can't see why it would be a reason to prefer shooting over injection.

I hope that answers your questions, applecart14.

OP - thank you for raising the issue in the first place and for your very useful comments about planning in advance for both the inevitable and the unexpected.
 
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I have no medical nor veterinary/nursing skills neither do I have experience of PTS, however if it is of any use to anybody whatsoever I was (at 18 years old) overdosed in a uk hospital with anaesthetic "by accident" ( the "nurse" apparently gave me 3 times the necessary dose) during what was supposedly a regular simple op. I was knocked out for 3 days instead of 20mins. I had and have no memory of this, felt no pain and have no memory of family visits etc etc. My point being, if my horse (or any other pet) was pts via injection, any movement afterward I would accept as being "mechanical" rather than "resistance" or "a fight for life". Providing the dose was correct in the first place, and believe me I always make sure!! I was apparently drifting in and out of consciousness and speaking, all be it randomly, but have no recollection of it.
Anybody who has had personal experience of PTS and has different knowledge to me of course I would bow to their superior and 1st hand knowledge.
This thread has made me think about our 2 though and I think I would personally choose an injection but be prepared for nerve responses etc to continue for some time after.
 
We had to have an elderly mare PTS last week. We called the hunt who were professional, prompt and efficient. They took over so no-one had to witness the final end.

I think someone has mentionned before that they would prefer their horse to smell horse/dog at the end rather than a vet! I have to be honest and say that this made me think twice about how I would have my pony PTS. I am needle phobic and he's not very good with them either.

It is important that you have numbers to hand as searching for them at "crunch" time is stressful.
 
I had my old (40 years old) pony pts last October. We took him down to the vets and he was sedated then had the final injection. We stayed whilst he was sedated and it was very peaceful. The vet was brilliant and did not hurry us. A friend and fellow livery is a vet nurse at the same vets and stayed with him whilst the final injection was given but I could not stay. She told me it was really calm and he lay down as if to roll. No drama and no suffering. I have 2 others I own and one oldie on loan and would not hesitate to have them pts by injection when their time comes. Not sure if we were just lucky or the vet was really skilled. Ben at Oakham Vets if anyone wants a recommendation. Every one at the vets from the time I went to arrange it to the actual pts were great.
 
As some of you may remember, I had my old lady PTS last Wednesday. She was already down and a little bit "out of it". My choice had always been injection and when the vet arrived, it was (for me) a decision that had already been made (thank you my lovely lady). The vet was good and sympathetic. However, despite my lovely friend and neighbour being there to hold me up, I hadn't realised about the "breaths" that she would take after she'd gone...I wish someone had told me that this would happen. I've had a dreadful few days, but the fact that my dear lady passed away in a dignified manner will comfort me. It's down to individual choice of course.
 
fburton said:
OP - thank you for raising the issue in the first place and for your very useful comments about planning in advance for both the inevitable and the unexpected.
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Couldn't agree more. Its a shame more of us don't discuss this with our livery friends and yard owners, I think planning in advance makes life a lot easier, plus at the time (in an emergency for example) its difficult enough to deal with the situation without trying to put your opinion across.

I am surprised whenever I have raised this subject with people their initial response. I think I am deemed as a bit of a 'grim reaper'! Just common sense. In the same way I don't want my horses bed touched afterwards, that is for me to do, and for me, bizarre as it sounds part of the long and painful healing process.

Thanks for answering my questions. I have no doubt what I want for my horse when the time comes, and that will be injection. Having had our dog pts last March with a little snort at the end (typical of her as she has allergic rhinitis) it was so very peaceful and calm.
 
Doris68 said:
However, despite my lovely friend and neighbour being there to hold me up, I hadn't realised about the "breaths" that she would take after she'd gone...I wish someone had told me that this would happen. I've had a dreadful few days, but the fact that my dear lady passed away in a dignified manner will comfort me. It's down to individual choice of course.
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I know I really don't understand why this is not mentioned. As I stated in my previous post, it was really upsetting and it frightened me, and my last memories of my beloved horse was being frightened thinking he hadn't gone. I actually shouted at the poor vet, "you told me he was dead" and my dad trying to explain to me that this was the case and it was just his reactions after. Not everyone can be expected to 'know' this. Take heed any vets reading this forum. Please remember we do not know these things.
 
applecart14 said:
I know I really don't understand why this is not mentioned. As I stated in my previous post, it was really upsetting and it frightened me, and my last memories of my beloved horse was being frightened thinking he hadn't gone. I actually shouted at the poor vet, "you told me he was dead" and my dad trying to explain to me that this was the case and it was just his reactions after. Not everyone can be expected to 'know' this. Take heed any vets reading this forum. Please remember we do not know these things.
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When my mare of a lifetime dropped down, I was actually cuddling her so I dropped with her, I was so busy crying I was not paying attention to her breaths etc, just the vet said *she has gone* any twitching so breaths were very quiet and peaceful.

I am going to go visit a crematorium who does horses as they invite you to see the premises and even be there while done (not for me this bit). So I am have happy with where she is being taken or he will be taken as I am NOT going to let Grafton get their hands on any more horses of mine after the way they treated me.

This is who is recommended by the APPCC http://www.appcc.org.uk/find.htm

This is the guy who I spoke to > http://www.equineandpetservices.co.uk/home.html

Was lovely on phone, sympathetic to me and my questions - reassured me of the proceedings, invited us up there to view.

Promised categorically that horses are collected individually and transported to the crematorium UNLESS two friends want their horses transported together.

NOT like *G* who chucked my poor livery pony onto top of a shire already in there.

They deserve respect right to the end.


I did a lot of home work after my last terrible experience, some of which cannot be repeated on a public forum.
 
HGA-12 said:
When my mare of a lifetime dropped down, I was actually cuddling her so I dropped with her, I was so busy crying I was not paying attention to her breaths etc, just the vet said *she has gone* any twitching so breaths were very quiet and peaceful.

I am going to go visit a crematorium who does horses as they invite you to see the premises and even be there while done (not for me this bit). So I am have happy with where she is being taken or he will be taken as I am NOT going to let Grafton get their hands on any more horses of mine after the way they treated me.

This is who is recommended by the APPCC http://www.appcc.org.uk/find.htm

This is the guy who I spoke to > http://www.equineandpetservices.co.uk/home.html

Was lovely on phone, sympathetic to me and my questions - reassured me of the proceedings, invited us up there to view.

Promised categorically that horses are collected individually and transported to the crematorium UNLESS two friends want their horses transported together.

NOT like *G* who chucked my poor livery pony onto top of a shire already in there.

They deserve respect right to the end.


I did a lot of home work after my last terrible experience, some of which cannot be repeated on a public forum.
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I know cremation isn't for everyone but I want my horse cremated. I don't mind if he's collected with other horses/fallen stock nor cremated with others. As long as he is cremated and doesn't end up in a can of tinned dog food or something similar not that he should as he's been on bute.

It would be interesting to see the crematorium although I have seen a horse one on telly once on a documentary.

Gosh HGA-12 I am not being disrespectful for the way your horse died or what happened at the time but I thought that the vet pulled you away/grabbed the leadrope before it went down in case they fell on you or at least that's what I've been led to believe. Surprised to hear that your vet allowed you to cuddle your horse as she went down. It was 'nice' for your mare though to have you there at the end.
 
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While we're on this subject, which I know is morbid, but quite rightly being sensibly discussed - I own two older ponies who are outgrown and loaned to family homes. I have written formally to both loaners stating that if anything should happen they are not to wait until they have contacted me, but in the event of a serious colic or injury they have my permission to euthanaze the pony. I would hate to think of someone trying to contact me when we have useless phone connectivity or I may be in a meeting or something similar. I would not want an old pony subjected to colic surgery or expect a loaner to go to that expense.
Secondly I have a letter lodged with my vet also stating the same thing. I am abroad on occasions for work, and I trust my vet to make the right decision.
I know some people will be shocked that I wouldn't do colic surgery, and I know that it has been successful in many cases, but I would not want it in an older animal.
Of course, this is very much a personal wish, and I respect that others would do differently.
 
applecart14 said:
I know cremation isn't for everyone but I want my horse cremated. I don't mind if he's collected with other horses/fallen stock nor cremated with others. As long as he is cremated and doesn't end up in a can of tinned dog food or something similar not that he should as he's been on bute.

It would be interesting to see the crematorium although I have seen a horse one on telly once on a documentary.

Gosh HGA-12 I am not being disrespectful for the way your horse died or what happened at the time but I thought that the vet pulled you away/grabbed the leadrope before it went down in case they fell on you or at least that's what I've been led to believe. Surprised to hear that your vet allowed you to cuddle your horse as she went down. It was 'nice' for your mare though to have you there at the end.
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She did let me cuddle her and with all two before, I have never been pulled away from them ever. She knew this mare was gentle giant and I can't remember everything but I think we encourage her to lie on her left side which is the side I was on and not once was i in danger from her as I stepped back still with arms on her while she dropped.

The vet made no effort to intervene and if she had would have heard my response *Nothing* was going to tear me away from her NOTHING. Even typing this has caused lump in throat, as I have to relive this here, hubby knew I wanted to be there till she had gone and 10 mins after to allow me to smell her and comfort me before I walked away and turned my back on my mare of a life time. The only thing I would have changed in this horrid 2012 cannot be mentioned on a public forum.

The way she went with me holding her I would do again with her son or any other, but I like you I don't want my beloved horses ending up as *dog c*ap* on the sidewalk
 
Surely a lot of it is down to the quality of person who is doing the deed, whether it is injection or gun?

My 3yo filly was pts via injection, she was heavily sedated first and despite always being a real fighter it was quick, peaceful and relatively painless. But I 100% trusted my vet to do a good job, would use the correct amounts etc.

There are always going to be unfortunate incidents but if you use qualified, compassionate people, who are prepared for all eventualities, the risk is minimised and the experience is hopefully the least traumatic that it needs to be.
 
Mooseontheloose said:
I know some people will be shocked that I wouldn't do colic surgery, and I know that it has been successful in many cases, but I would not want it in an older animal.
Of course, this is very much a personal wish, and I respect that others would do differently.
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I'm not shocked at all mooseontheloose, I would not consider this for my horse and often wonder if I will be left with this decision as he has been so colicky over the years. I really hope any decision I had to make about PTS would be as there is no other choice and with colic surgery of course there is always a choice. But I wouldn't want it for him - not because of the anaethetic, not for the operation either but for the recovery after.

My boy couldn't cope with the enforced box rest as he has arthritis and it would be detrimental for him to have any extended period of box rest, even one day is hard on him to be honest.
 
Applecart, the same reasons. Over the last twenty years I've taken three, one mine and two liveries to equine hospital, all had colic surgery, and I didn't bring one home. I know we were unlucky, and live a long way away from the facility, which doesn't help. However, I'm not sure I didn't just prolong the distress, stress and suffering. (Horse and human)
A young, fit horse is one thing, but I think our old stagers deserve better than what we were able to provide and that is a peaceful end at home. More than a lot of humans have.
 
This is a topic I have thought about a few times. I luckily have never seen either method "fail" so am coming in with an unbiased view.

I will almost definitely get my horses euthanised with the injection and it will allow me to be there patting them until the end. I would hate to walk away from them and leave them with a stranger to be killed. I don't know if it makes any difference to them and it is probably more for my own needs, but I would like to provide them with as much comfort as possible.
 
Applecart - you've made so many valid points. I quite agree that, despite "thinking" we know what's going to happen when our horse is euthanised, we don't really know, well at least not the fine detail. I made a choice to have my horse cremated and the vet organised this immediately and told me X would arrive at around 11.00 am. We retreated to the kitchen and a friend said he would deal with it to avoid us having to. Our friend went in to the yard to find that my mare had already been taken, her rugs removed and left on the manege fence. The area had been levelled and there was not a trace of her removal. We were spared any further pain and are extremely grateful to the company that took her away. It would be good if Vet practices could produce a leaflet, giving an outline of what may/may not happen when your beloved horse is euthanised. A good thread - thank you.
 
Nope, mine went absolutely textbook. He was a naturally calm, sensible horse who was good with vets though so didn't try to fight it. (and vet was very experienced) I'd pick the same again for current pony (although probably with VERY heavy sedation as he's a worrier) who is rather headshy at times and prone to head-tossing when worried so perhaps would be a liability to do any other way anyway
 
I have always had mine put to sleep via injection. But after one quite traumatic experience I now insist on them being sedated before hand. My vet also takes the rope of me and pushes me behind him but he does wait right until the last second before they go down.
 
Mooseontheloose said:
The one thing that this does impress upon me and it is some thing that many horseowners won't face, is that it will happen to most of us if we keep horses long enough. Firstly make the decision before it becomes an emergency if at all possible, even if the horse looks perky and happy, it's better to go like that than allow it to become sick and traumatised.
Secondly, have your emergency plan so you know what to do, who to call, what you would want done with the body etc. When you're in a shocked or upset state it is all much more difficult.
Morbid subject but one we should be much more prepared for and open about.
Let's hope we all have a long time with our animals before having to face it, but when we do we know what to do.
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I'd like to second this. I was caught out completely when my mini shettie had his fatal accident in the field. I'd always thought that I would have time to discuss and make arrangements when the time was right. What happened that night proved just how vital it is to have done your research and to be prepared. I've kept the numbers I need from that awful time because all the people concerned were absolutely fantastic, from the attending vet through to the guy who came to collect the body the next day. They were all so professional and completely sympathetic and practical which helped enormously while I was so utterly grief stricken that I could barely speak to say what was needed. Big thanks also to a very dear friend who assisted and knows me and knew the pony well enough to be able to ask the questions that I wanted to ask but couldn't get the words out to do so. If you have a trusted friend, relative or even acquaintance that can be there for you then I would recommend that as well, whether a planned PTS or emergency as this was.
 
I think alot of vets routinely sedate now. My rising 30 year old mare was PTS by injection 2 years ago and the vet doped her automatically. She went gently and quietly, with no struggle and subsequent movements of any type. The vet monitored her heartbeat over several minutes, advised me that it was slowing and then had subsequently stopped. I couldn't have asked for a better and more dignified end for my dear old girl.
 
Everyone has their own views about what method to use when having a special horse or pony put to sleep but l have always had my vet use a gun as its the quickest and kindest way to let them go.
 
dizzyneddy said:
Everyone has their own views about what method to use when having a special horse or pony put to sleep but l have always had my vet use a gun as its the quickest and kindest way to let them go.
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You believe it's the quickest and kindest way - that's your right and is perfectly reasonable, but implying that pts by injection is less kind than shooting should be avoided I think.
 
I have had my old pony PTS by captive bolt, and OH's by injection. Both went very smoothly.

A neighbour had a horrendous time with a bolt, and the horse was in agony for half an hour while more equipment was bought, hence OH insisting on injection.

However, a vet who was a friend had once told us about times he had made errors in dosing, once did not have enough in the car, and he did say it was not an exact science. So, OH had a very strong word with the vet who was coming, to have enough drugs to finish six Charlie's, as he would not be accountable for his actions if this were not done correctly.

The vet was FAB, the people to collect came just as she did, he was sedated and walked quietly onto the lawn, and we both held and stroked him until he fell. He just went down, groaned once and lay. We had as long as we needed to make sure he was indeed gone. Other than to tell us to be aware we were not pulled away.

I don't think there is a "best" way, as I agree it is all to do with the skill and foresight of the individual concerned. I can see that adrenaline could complicate matters for either way. I just pray that if I have to do this again, and I own a horse so that is a likelihood, that whatever method we use goes to plan.
 
Mooseontheloose said:
While we're on this subject, which I know is morbid, but quite rightly being sensibly discussed - I own two older ponies who are outgrown and loaned to family homes. I have written formally to both loaners stating that if anything should happen they are not to wait until they have contacted me, but in the event of a serious colic or injury they have my permission to euthanaze the pony. I would hate to think of someone trying to contact me when we have useless phone connectivity or I may be in a meeting or something similar. I would not want an old pony subjected to colic surgery or expect a loaner to go to that expense.
Secondly I have a letter lodged with my vet also stating the same thing. I am abroad on occasions for work, and I trust my vet to make the right decision.
I know some people will be shocked that I wouldn't do colic surgery, and I know that it has been successful in many cases, but I would not want it in an older animal.
Of course, this is very much a personal wish, and I respect that others would do differently.
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This ^^ one hundred percent - although my daughter is now 23 I am the legal and registered owner of the horse and would not want my daughter to be in a position of having to make the decision. I have also left written instructions with the vet surgery and the yard owner that in such an instance the vet can PTS without contacting me first if it is in the best interest of the horse. Having seen a situation where the owner dithered because they didn't want to make the decision and the PTS being delayed worries me greatly if it should ever happen to my horse. Yes some people consider planning PTS situations as morbid but at the end of the day it is what is best for the animal, not the human.
 
Yes I have been the unfortunate witness to an injection euthanasia going seriously wrong, 9 years ago and it still haunts me to this day. Horse was a very strong, young, big WB. A lovely animal in every which way, unfortunately after years of treatment for Navicular and him not settling to a retired life he was to be PTS.

The vet was very young and obviously intimidated by this horse, it was the first (and consequently) the last injection PTS experience I will ever witness. She injected him first but with nowhere near a high enough dose. He initially dropped to his knees and fought it. 5 injections later, a severed artery, a heavily bleeding head and neck and a horse who was literally banging his head against the floor, half with it, half completely out of it and I was begging the gamekeeper to just shoot him with his shotgun. She started crying and went and sat in her car while I had to phone her boss and tell him to do the job properly.

45 minutes that poor animal waited to finally be put out of his misery. He was in a serious mess by the time her boss arrived and we had, had to wrap a rug around his head to stop him smashing it against the floor and used to jumpers to stem the bleeding from his artery and neck - Transpires she had never put a horse to sleep before unaided and while the 1st lot did go into the artery, it was hit and miss about if the rest went IV or muscle.

I vowed to this day to only ever have mine shot, we are blessed to have an exceptional good knackerman here, a very kind and compassionate young man who is fantastic at his job. The last horse he did for me was a pleasant experience as it can be, it's never going to be a nice thing to do but I didn't even realise he was carrying his gun, the horse has his head in a bucket and didn't know anything about it and went very quickly, peacefully and with his mum at his head.
 
I stayed when my old boy was put down - held him to the end, as far as possible.
The vet was lovely, explained all that could happen during the process and after he went down. I am a biologist so I already knew, academically, but it another thing to see it in my beloved boy (I got him when I was 12, PTS when I was 30!) and I am very glad the vet warned me on the day.
The act itself was uneventful. The boy galloped around and refused to let me catch him, then gobbled his carrots, then stood calmly as the vet inserted a catheter. Then a last carrot and out goodbyes. He was given a sedative and he just stood there, swaying slightly as they can under sedation. The barbiturate went in and a few seconds later he pitched forward and then to his side. He paddled a few times, let out an enormous gasp and a fart, vet checked his heart and then left me to sob my little heart out. I was glad to have seen the whole thing, it made me feel he was "ready" ... which is silly of course because at whatever age they will go down with an overdose of barbiturates.
 
fburton said:
You believe it's the quickest and kindest way - that's your right and is perfectly reasonable, but implying that pts by injection is less kind than shooting should be avoided I think.
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I agree with this. Both methods are humane when performed correctly. It appears to me that increasingly more vets do not have a gun licence and can only PTS by injection anyway.
My own vet maintains that if the injection 'goes wrong' it is because it has been administered incorrectly and that it is not possible for a horse to 'fight' the injection.
Let's face has anyone ever heard of a dog or horse admitted for surgery and returned to find the op has not been performed because the animal in question 'fought' the anaesthetic?
 
The wife said:
Yes I have been the unfortunate witness to an injection euthanasia going seriously wrong, 9 years ago and it still haunts me to this day. Horse was a very strong, young, big WB. A lovely animal in every which way, unfortunately after years of treatment for Navicular and him not settling to a retired life he was to be PTS.

The vet was very young and obviously intimidated by this horse, it was the first (and consequently) the last injection PTS experience I will ever witness. She injected him first but with nowhere near a high enough dose. He initially dropped to his knees and fought it. 5 injections later, a severed artery, a heavily bleeding head and neck and a horse who was literally banging his head against the floor, half with it, half completely out of it and I was begging the gamekeeper to just shoot him with his shotgun. She started crying and went and sat in her car while I had to phone her boss and tell him to do the job properly.

45 minutes that poor animal waited to finally be put out of his misery. He was in a serious mess by the time her boss arrived and we had, had to wrap a rug around his head to stop him smashing it against the floor and used to jumpers to stem the bleeding from his artery and neck - Transpires she had never put a horse to sleep before unaided and while the 1st lot did go into the artery, it was hit and miss about if the rest went IV or muscle.

I vowed to this day to only ever have mine shot, we are blessed to have an exceptional good knackerman here, a very kind and compassionate young man who is fantastic at his job. The last horse he did for me was a pleasant experience as it can be, it's never going to be a nice thing to do but I didn't even realise he was carrying his gun, the horse has his head in a bucket and didn't know anything about it and went very quickly, peacefully and with his mum at his head.
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As the original poster of this thread I had't gone in to too much detail but your experience was very like the one we had had, except it was an old pony also colicking - it was horrendous. Never again.
 
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