PTS would you help?

[honetpot]

'Breeding is be a privilege and not a right'
Yes Alex, at the moment its is a right, and everyone seems to have had a go at it and we are reaping the consequences, do you not think there should be some control on the breeding on these often low value animals? The TB people have more to lose in PR and have are trying to get rid of 'wastage' ,I would imagine a lot go for humane consumption as they have a medical history that is traceable and are relatively young. There is a company in Essex I think that recycles in to pet food, they sell it under their own brand, but the majority of the pet owners would balk at feeding food that was unfit for human consumption.
The government brought out schemes to get rid of the over supply of old cars, people used to dump them at the side of the road when the scrap price was low, so councils subsidised removal. There needs to a two way approach, stop people breeding just because they can and get a scheme in place so its easier for people to have them disposed of and lots of education

 

[MagicMelon]

The ultimate responsibility of owning any animal is taking that last decision, unfortunately too many people won't do it and will pass the problem on to someone else. It irritates the hell out of me when you see ads for unrideable/aged animals being sold or given away because the owner won't do the right thing.
And yes, I would help.

You mention you don't like "unrideable" horses being sold, why? Unrideable horses can have a perfectly good use as a companion (where often shetlands are NOT the most suitable companion to say a large horse who has totally different grazing needs etc.). I loaned out my big 17yo warmblood - unrideable except for a gentle hack due to him being mechanically lame yet a very happy, bright horse so I wouldn't consider PTS even though he is now coming back to me and financially it's not ideal (I'm having to rent extra land as my own isn't enough etc.) but I will look after him no matter what as I owe it to him to give him a good retirement. 3 of mine are over the age of 17 now so are effectively field ornaments and will be with me to the end of their days, no they have no 'use' as such and its a strain having them but I will only PTS when they shows signs of being unhappy. IMO I have no right to end the life of an animal just because it doesnt have a job anymore or because of my own circumstances etc. There's two sides IMO - those who PTS perfectly happy horses just because they think they're the only ones who can look after them so refuse to even try rehoming (seemingly they think all other horsey people are nasty) and those who don't PTS when they absolutely should due to the horses ill health.

I think most of the horses that tend to end up in charities are often taken in as rescue cases from people who simply shouldn't be allowed near any animal and often from people who die and haven't left instructions what to do with them in their will? With regard to over-breeding, totally believe that is a massive massive issue that needs to be dealt with with education / higher costs (to put off the low end ones out for a quick buck).

 

[hackneylass2]

I still say that the return of Stallion Licences would be invaluable. Before I'm jumped on I don't mean that stallions would have to be graded ...just a licence that unites stallion with owner like the dog licences were. But then, there's no money available to police this and 1000 other things that need policing here at the moment, and the penalties for breaking many laws are laughably soft!

I would never ever feed anything to my pets that was not passed for for human consumption, and as honetpot said, neither would most people so yes, the pet food market is largely out.

Taking a view that is against my general principles, I do think that at this moment in time, the ability of councils to sieze fly-grazed and dumped animals and dispose of as they see fit is a good way of reducing the coloured cob type waifs, in fact I can see the breeders of these unfortunates actively dumping them 'en masse' anyway as the legitimate routes for these animals dry up. I do however. fear for the future welfare of horses if the live export ban is lifted, which I think, is under review. I also think that how councils dispose of these animals should be looked at to ensure that the horses and ponies do not end up at some under the radar slaughterhouse. Potters would not be an option for any of these poor creatures as I guess they won't come with a handy passport!

 

[Red-1]

I will put a new one out there....

Last year I considered running a business whereby for owners who could not face the practicalities of PTS could send me their horse for a month of pampering, followed by a PTS at my home.

On the face of it there is no business there, it would be unsettling for a horse to be moved, expensive for livery, expensive for PTS.... But, having met a fair few people I think it would have customers. It means people can salve their conscience that the horse had a month at grass, or stabled if that is what is better, on pain meds to whatever dose was necessary. They would be able to tell their friends that the horse had gone to retirement. They would have photos sent of their horse in the sun, stable, whatever. They would not have to face the practicalities, and would know their horse would be held, disposed of etc.

In reality I do not have enough land for this, or a vehicle set up for commercial needs. I do think that there would be a business in it, albeit a niche one. I also think it would be fair for the horses that are stuck in a non decision place. Not an ideal situation, but maybe better than where they are now. It would only be a minute % of owners who would use such a service, but there are a heck of a lot of horses facing pts.

 

[fatpiggy]

I still say that the return of Stallion Licences would be invaluable. Before I'm jumped on I don't mean that stallions would have to be graded ...just a licence that unites stallion with owner like the dog licences were. But then, there's no money available to police this and 1000 other things that need policing here at the moment, and the penalties for breaking many laws are laughably soft!

I would never ever feed anything to my pets that was not passed for for human consumption, and as honetpot said, neither would most people so yes, the pet food market is largely out.

Taking a view that is against my general principles, I do think that at this moment in time, the ability of councils to sieze fly-grazed and dumped animals and dispose of as they see fit is a good way of reducing the coloured cob type waifs, in fact I can see the breeders of these unfortunates actively dumping them 'en masse' anyway as the legitimate routes for these animals dry up. I do however. fear for the future welfare of horses if the live export ban is lifted, which I think, is under review. I also think that how councils dispose of these animals should be looked at to ensure that the horses and ponies do not end up at some under the radar slaughterhouse. Potters would not be an option for any of these poor creatures as I guess they won't come with a handy passport!

Totally agree about the stallion licence - but it should be much more expensive than it used to be to help to deter the numpties who think its "lovely" to own a stallion simply due to image/status and then allow it to breed willy nilly with their friends' rubbish mares, people who have no idea about the responsibilities and demands of breeding but just "fancy a cute foal". Stallion licences used to be issued under the dangerous animals act, dogs were different.

 

[hackneylass2]

Fatpiggy, yes I know that the Stallion Licences were different but it's so long ago I had to deal with it .....now my brain has fuzzed over! Glad you agree but I fear that whatever happens, the policing is going to cost more than the authorities can bear what with all the LA cuts.

Red 1 I think your idea is great in principle, after all, its very similar to what Dorothy Brooke did all those years ago. Trouble is, the largest amount of unwanted and dumped animals have 'owners' who just don't care where they end up. Also I do believe that apart from it potentially being a heavy emotional weight on your mind to run such a business, I wonder if the relaxing of peoples' responsibilities when faced with the decision is not to be encouraged. If we look back, I think most of us know or know of, instances where animals were 'sent to a farm' when they obviously were not. I think we should be encouraging people to stand up and face their responsibilities more, not less. I think what worries me most is the potential live export situation.

 

[fatpiggy]

Fatpiggy, yes I know that the Stallion Licences were different but it's so long ago I had to deal with it .....now my brain has fuzzed over! Glad you agree but I fear that whatever happens, the policing is going to cost more than the authorities can bear what with all the LA cuts.

Red 1 I think your idea is great in principle, after all, its very similar to what Dorothy Brooke did all those years ago. Trouble is, the largest amount of unwanted and dumped animals have 'owners' who just don't care where they end up. Also I do believe that apart from it potentially being a heavy emotional weight on your mind to run such a business, I wonder if the relaxing of peoples' responsibilities when faced with the decision is not to be encouraged. If we look back, I think most of us know or know of, instances where animals were 'sent to a farm' when they obviously were not. I think we should be encouraging people to stand up and face their responsibilities more, not less. I think what worries me most is the potential live export situation.

Hi Hackneylass, yes, you are right. The same people who breed the poor unfortunates of coloured coats and rubbish conformation don't bother with passports, so they are hardly going to shell out £100+ for a stallion licence -not my horse mister, it belongs to a Mr Smith, and of course we all know the police don't bother to investigate their serious misdeeds, so the odd licence here and there is of absolutely no interest to them.

Red1, you are very kind and obviously have the horse's best interests very much at heart. The only problem I can see is that you are absolving the owner of their responsibilities. When I bought my horse my parents reminded me that at some time in the future I was going to be having her put down and was I prepared to do that? The answer 18 years later was yes, and it was entirely my choice. You just have to man-up and get on with it I'm afraid, and allowing people to simply walk away from their responsibilities doesn't sit right with me. They already do it when they dump puppies and kittens because the litter wasn't wanted, or got too boisterous, or abandon horses in field because they have lost interest, the boyfriend comes first, or whatever. People are so spineless these days. No wonder marriages don't last long!

Hackneylass - go to bed!

 

[Penny Less]

hackneylass, is it true that horses don't end up in pet food ? I didn't know that

 

[Alec Swan]

hackneylass, is it true that horses don't end up in pet food ? I didn't know that

If it's true, it's lunacy and a further indication that our world's being governed by those with little thought to the future.

Alec.

 

[ycbm]

If it's true, it's lunacy and a further indication that our world's being governed by those with little thought to the future.

Alec.

Yes, it's lunacy! My first horse was put down at his home stables in 1986 and the Belle View Pet Food Company sent me a cheque in the post. I now have to pay about two hundred pounds. What's wrong with the meat going in a tin of dog food? I have no objection, and I'd rather the meat was used than burnt, and I'd rather be paid than have to pay.

 

[hackneylass2]

Fatpiggy...cheers, but I do a lot of my work at night!

Regarding petfood, companies in the UK who belong to the Association of British Petfood Manufacturers (that includes the vast majority of the big brands) will and do not use any animal not passed fit for human consumption or seen as a 'food animal' in the UK's diet. They also will not use any marine mammal. Interestingly enough, during the horsemeat crisis a few years back, many petfoods from the ABPFM brands were tested and NONE contained equine DNA. They also banned some beef offals in the wake of the BSE crisis BEFORE government legislation banned it in human foods! Food for thought indeed. Seems that majority of petfood manufacturers care more than those providing meat for us to eat!

There is a similar Association in the EU who strangely enough follow the same guidelines, even though horse is eaten by some, if not most EU countries.

Ycbm, I guess the Belle Vue company were a small company. I personally would not feel comfortable with feeding my pets meat that was not good enough and safe enough for me to eat, wonder how many drugged or diseased horses the smaller companies processed? Also, after the enjoyment and service that my horses have given me over the years, I would not baulk at paying for them to be put to sleep by my vet and buried/cremated. Each to their own I know, but that is my stance.

 

[Welly]

I started this post a couple of years ago and I read with interest the new posts. To me it does not matter where the body ends up, dog food, humane food, or even an expensive earn on the mantle piece. The fact is people won't do the first step which is deciding to PTS. It seems a taboo subject for most. This is an extract from my previous post.

"I think there a need for a voluntary organization made up of caring people who would help people at this time. The Organisation could arrange for their horse to be PTS, be with them or their animals at this time and if funds could be raised, help with the cost. Would you help a person in this situation? Alternatively, perhaps the animal charities should have a dedicated team to help and advise people who for whatever reason are in this position.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?642134-PTS-would-you-help#Rk0efL3PXao64ygv.99"

Someone pointed out that the BHS do a service but I have never seen it advatised. And this is the point, I have never seen my vet or the Knackerman advertise what they can do for you in this situation. I have used both and found both to be So very kind and thoughtful and take away as much stress as they could.

Here's a thought, Perhaps we should lobby our vets to post out a leaflet to all their equine clients advising them what they can do, when it should be done, how it can be done including the Knackerman, and the cost.

 

[ycbm]

Ycbm, I guess the Belle Vue company were a small company. I personally would not feel comfortable with feeding my pets meat that was not good enough and safe enough for me to eat, wonder how many drugged or diseased horses the smaller companies processed? Also, after the enjoyment and service that my horses have given me over the years, I would not baulk at paying for them to be put to sleep by my vet and buried/cremated. Each to their own I know, but that is my stance.

As I said, it was 1986, which was before the days when horses were routinely stuffed with bute and antibiotics for every little knock and scratch.

What I actually got a cheque for was forty pounds for his hair, hooves and bones. He was put down for kidney failure, so his meat was unusable due to toxins, and that was incinerated as far as I know, otherwise the payment would have been hundreds. So hopefully, they did what they said and didn't put his urea poisoned body into someone's pet dog

I don't baulk at paying for my horses to be put down either, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't prefer to be paid for it. I don't have any feelings for the body, that's not the horse I lived and cared for, it's just the shell that held his soul. I hold my friend's horses when they are put down by injection. I don't like it for my own horses, I prefer a quick bullet for my own, but always at home.

 

[ester]

You mention you don't like "unrideable" horses being sold, why? Unrideable horses can have a perfectly good use as a companion (where often shetlands are NOT the most suitable companion to say a large horse who has totally different grazing needs etc.). I loaned out my big 17yo warmblood - unrideable except for a gentle hack due to him being mechanically lame yet a very happy, bright horse so I wouldn't consider PTS even though he is now coming back to me and financially it's not ideal (I'm having to rent extra land as my own isn't enough etc.) but I will look after him no matter what as I owe it to him to give him a good retirement. 3 of mine are over the age of 17 now so are effectively field ornaments and will be with me to the end of their days, no they have no 'use' as such and its a strain having them but I will only PTS when they shows signs of being unhappy. IMO I have no right to end the life of an animal just because it doesnt have a job anymore or because of my own circumstances etc. There's two sides IMO - those who PTS perfectly happy horses just because they think they're the only ones who can look after them so refuse to even try rehoming (seemingly they think all other horsey people are nasty) and those who don't PTS when they absolutely should due to the horses ill health.

I think most of the horses that tend to end up in charities are often taken in as rescue cases from people who simply shouldn't be allowed near any animal and often from people who die and haven't left instructions what to do with them in their will? With regard to over-breeding, totally believe that is a massive massive issue that needs to be dealt with with education / higher costs (to put off the low end ones out for a quick buck).

Exactly you haven't sold him, you loaned him and will take responsibility for him for the rest of his life and ensure a secure future.