Public liability insurance

I do wish people would simply be members of the BHS. You are supporting the national charity that does training, welfare, road safety and access. They represent the whole of the equine world in the UK apart from racing.
The more people who are members the more they can afford to do.

Accidents sometimes happen with terrible results.
 
criso said:
That was my point, horse owners are being punished for other peoples behaviour when it's not their fault and insuring enables this as it gives a pot of money to go for.

It doesn't make me want to insure, it makes me want to drop my public liability and step aside from the whole system. I can't atm as it's bundled into my horse's veteran policy.
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I don’t think this is fair to the potential child walking down the lane that gets run over by your loose horse, and has life changing injuries. A galloping horse is a dangerous animal. You should have cover to compensate innocent third parties injured by your horse. Irrespective of how the horse got in the road, you own a potentially dangerous animal, and it won’t be the child’s fault they got knocked down. Every horse owner should morally have 3rd party liability and to prevent the risk of losing any property owned.
 
expanding_horizon said:
I don’t think this is fair to the potential child walking down the lane that gets run over by your loose horse, and has life changing injuries. A galloping horse is a dangerous animal. You should have cover to compensate innocent third parties injured by your horse. Irrespective of how the horse got in the road, you own a potentially dangerous animal, and it won’t be the child’s fault they got knocked down. Every horse owner should morally have 3rd party liability and to prevent the risk of losing any property owned.
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I don't agree, it should be the fault of the person who put the horse in that situation. If I have good fencing and I've taken reasonable steps to make sure my horse doesn't get out, why should I be held accountable for someone else's actions? If someone steals your car and it hits someone, you are not liable but the person who took it is.

Anyway we'll have to agree to disagree, this thread has changed my opinion on liability.
 
criso said:
I don't agree, it should be the fault of the person who put the horse in that situation. If I have good fencing and I've taken reasonable steps to make sure my horse doesn't get out, why should I be held accountable for someone else's actions? If someone steals your car and it hits someone, you are not liable but the person who took it is.

Anyway we'll have to agree to disagree, this thread has changed my opinion on liability.
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Have a read of the 1971 Animals Act https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/22 with regards liability for horses, and indeed other animals.



I've always kinda seen public liability as giving you insurance cover for the stupidity of humans who don't take responsibility for their own actions, not the animal! I've also seen how people go after riding schools first hand for the most basic of things - it's eye opening 😲
 
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criso said:
What would have happened to the example you gave of the orphan children in wheelchairs if the accident had happened because the car slipped on a patch of ice or swerved to avoid a deer or rabbit?
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In these scenarios, the claim would be against the motor insurance policy: anyone behind the wheel must ensure that they are covered for third party risks as the bare minimum. It’s a legal requirement, and the police seize and impound vehicles where there is no insurance in place.

If thee is no third party involvement but the driver is seriously injured, the car damaged or written off, a comprehensive policy is needed for there to be any payout.

Oh, and avoiding or colliding with that wild deer will be deemed to be an at fault incident and hit your no claims bonus if that is not protected.
 
teapot said:
Have a read of the 1971 Animals Act https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/22 with regards liability for horses, and indeed other animals.



I've always kinda seen public liability as giving you insurance cover for the stupidity of humans who don't take responsibility for their own actions, not the animal! I've also seen how people go after riding schools first hand for the most basic of things - it's eye opening 😲
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I'm not arguing about the legality, just the morality and now I've made the connection, I can't disassociate public liability insurance with the sort of ambulance chasing lawyers who hover round hospitals and cold call you about the accident you had.

The barrister in Pn's post said it was a really badly drafted act and talked about lawyers following the money and looking for someone insured to sue.

So having established that I couldn't be made homeless by this sort of claim and with no assets or savings, I'd rather not be the person enabling these lawyers.
 
View said:
In these scenarios, the claim would be against the motor insurance policy: anyone behind the wheel must ensure that they are covered for third party risks as the bare minimum. It’s a legal requirement, and the police seize and impound vehicles where there is no insurance in place.

If thee is no third party involvement but the driver is seriously injured, the car damaged or written off, a comprehensive policy is needed for there to be any payout.

Oh, and avoiding or colliding with that wild deer will be deemed to be an at fault incident and hit your no claims bonus if that is not protected.
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So if a driver hits a deer, it's the driver's fault but if they hit a horse, it's the owner's fault.
 
PN thanks for the info, that was really eye opening, I'd had WHW because it also offered cover for veterinary fees but seeing those cases does make you wonder if the 10million is enough.

It's worth noting that BS offer 30 million so you could put £90 towards BS affiliation rather than BHS if you were thinking of affiliating.
 
criso said:
I'm not arguing about the legality, just the morality and now I've made the connection, I can't disassociate public liability insurance with the sort of ambulance chasing lawyers who hover round hospitals and cold call you about the accident you had.

The barrister in Pn's post said it was a really badly drafted act and talked about lawyers following the money and looking for someone insured to sue.

So having established that I couldn't be made homeless by this sort of claim and with no assets or savings, I'd rather not be the person enabling these lawyers.
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It was written the 70s, if not older so wouldn't surprise me! Have to remember a lot of these Acts were not and are not written by people who have experience in what they're writing about.
 
criso said:
So if a driver hits a deer, it's the driver's fault but if they hit a horse, it's the owner's fault.
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Yep.

Logical? Hell no.

But remember one is legal liability (horse owner) and the other is what insurance deem as at fault. Basically, it there isn’t a third party that a motor insurer can recover costs from, it’s an at fault claim.

It really stung when I was told that my car being stolen was an automatic at fault claim.
 
ycbm said:
It may be advisable but it probably isn't essential, depending on your circumstances. If you don't own much in the way of assets and perhaps only a very modest house (I understand that you can't be made homeless by a claim of this sort, though you could be made to downsize) , then it simply wouldn't be worth anyone's effort to sue you, because you have no ability to pay them compensation. Lawyers won't agree to pursue a case where they clearly aren't going to get their fees paid.

ETA nobody should take this as a reason not to have it, £10m with WHW foot about £60 a year is worth every bit for the peace of mind and knowing you're helping horses too.
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I know of cases at work where a defendant has been unable to pay large claims and they are pursued pretty relentlessly. Attachment of earnings will continue until the debt is paid and be reviewed if earnings increase. A charge can be taken over a house to be recovered upon sale or after death.
 
Kat said:
I know of cases at work where a defendant has been unable to pay large claims and they are pursued pretty relentlessly. Attachment of earnings will continue until the debt is paid and be reviewed if earnings increase. A charge can be taken over a house to be recovered upon sale or after death.
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I was going to reply with something similar. At work we got caught on the periphery of a civil claim against a lady because she had a tiny (& low value) shareholding in a company.

The claim was found against her and we got a copy of the judgement because the shares were caught by the claim. I was horrified - her business had to be sold, every asset was valued and there was a charge over her house. She had kids too.

I think she was in her 40s and that was just going to be hanging over her forever
 
Aside from the moral argument that innocent others should be covered if accidentally injured by animals you own, thank to those for making the point that just because you don‘t think you’re worth enough to be worth chasing doesn’t mean that a claim made against you won’t wipe you out.

Whether you are insured or not makes no difference to your liability.

By all means take chances on insuring your house contents or for vets bills, but decent third party cover is a no brainer.

I have BHS Gold.
 
Just bumping this thread as looking for best public liability insurance for riding others horses (not my own)… would Harry Hall cover it? It talks about ownership which it wouldn’t be? Thanks
 
I joined BHS (Gold/Life membership) before my first hack. As I was pretty old by rider standards it was not a lot of money and I imagined it would be like 3rd party cover for a car driver. However BHS liability is a last resort insurance which means if you have public liability cover on your home insurance, BHS may not pay out.
It worried me a lot at the time but I wanted to hack and put it out of my mind.
The BHS was worth having because I did turn to them for legal advice. I was out with an RS escort whose pony was misbehaving largely because he was hitting it a lot. He decided we would return home down a tarmac road rather than on the sanded bridle track and he would not allow me to dismount. I obeyed and got home very shaken.
The BHS lawyer told me that as an adult I was ultimately responsible for my own safety.
 
Skib said:
I joined BHS (Gold/Life membership) before my first hack. As I was pretty old by rider standards it was not a lot of money and I imagined it would be like 3rd party cover for a car driver. However BHS liability is a last resort insurance which means if you have public liability cover on your home insurance, BHS may not pay out.
It worried me a lot at the time but I wanted to hack and put it out of my mind.
The BHS was worth having because I did turn to them for legal advice. I was out with an RS escort whose pony was misbehaving largely because he was hitting it a lot. He decided we would return home down a tarmac road rather than on the sanded bridle track and he would not allow me to dismount. I obeyed and got home very shaken.
The BHS lawyer told me that as an adult I was ultimately responsible for my own safety.
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I've known a friend who Harry Hall paid out for significant damage to a third parties property that was caused by their horse. It's reassuring to know the last resort cover do pay out if needed.
 
Squeak said:
I've known a friend who Harry Hall paid out for significant damage to a third parties property that was caused by their horse. It's reassuring to know the last resort cover do pay out if needed.
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A long time ago when I was a teenager BHS paid out no problems when I scraped a parked car with my exercise cart.
 
So - if Old Horse is chased by an off-lead, out-of-control dog who dives under the electric fencing that divides his paddock from the PROW, and he kicks that dog, am I liable for the veterinary treatment or financial restitution for the damage or death of that dog?
I had public liability insurance before he was retired, but he's not now insured for anything.
 
Ratface said:
So - if Old Horse is chased by an off-lead, out-of-control dog who dives under the electric fencing that divides his paddock from the PROW, and he kicks that dog, am I liable for the veterinary treatment or financial restitution for the damage or death of that dog?
I had public liability insurance before he was retired, but he's not now insured for anything.
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Yes you are

The same as me if my top notch locked field gate chain is cut by burglars in the middle of the night who (after nicking my stuff) leave the gate open and my horse gets on the road - my fault - legally
 
Polos Mum said:
Yes you are
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If that was true then dogs getting in with sheep and worrying them then being shot by the farmer would entail the farmer paying for the dog. If a dog got in with your horse and caused your horse to break out onto the road and cause an accident then you would be liable but I am pretty sure that in the case Ratface quoted it is the dog owner that would be liable.
 
Errin Paddywack, thank you for your answer. In the past, I've asked the land and yard owner this question, and she's been entirely clear that if my horse, or any of hers, were damaged or killed by dogs off- lead on the PROW she would pursue them and the dog/s to the ends of the Earth, and they would be very sorry.
I went down there on Sunday and she was fuming over some eejit who had a Rottweiler, a Doberman and a Collie x ? running loose off- lead along the part of the PROW that runs through her land. She had seen one of them chasing her favourite - a 31yr old show winning mare. Old mare sometimes has breathing difficulties and has Ventapulmin in hot weather. Old mare is very fleet of foot, and can dole out a hefty kick if she's minded to - but still . . .
YO is a licenced owner of a shotgun, and having seen what the cur dogs were doing, grabbed it out of the locked gun safe and beetled swiftly up the fields, yelling at the bloke and his pack in a very loud voice. He took one look and ran away, and his dogs followed him, but not before one of them had bitten her show-winning 16hh Arabian dressage horse on his off hind and lamed him. I think that if she'd seen that before she'd run him and the dogs off, she would have probably fired the shotgun over his head or shot the culprit dog. I wouldn't have blamed her either.
 
That is terrible, pity she didn't shoot the dog, she would have been entitled too (I think). Hope her horse is ok. If I was her I would be putting notices up to the effect that out of control dogs chasing the horses are liable to be shot. I do hate these entitled people with loose dogs in livestock fields.
 
PeterNatt said:
Criso. If you are not insured then they can go for your assets so I would not advise you canceling your third party insurance policy.
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We established unthread I have no assets they can go for.

I can't cancel it as it's bundled with my horse insurance but if that situation changed I would look at at the very least reducing the amount they can claim as some of the figures being quoted seem immoral.
 
About 10 years ago my horse bucked out at a car that tried to come past him on a corner, he kicked in the wing. I claimed on my BHS gold policy and had no trouble at all, they paid straight out.
 
If you own the horse you need the third party insurance for, then you have an asset. I once bought a horse at auction which was sold on the order of a court to pay a vet bill. The vet got nearly nothing back out of the process but they did find their bad debts dropped for quite a while because everyone in the area knew.
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Thanks just to clarify this is just for me to ride a borrowed horse, we have our own which my daughter rides and she has public liability/3rd party through the pony club x
 
Bobthecob15 said:
Just bumping this thread as looking for best public liability insurance for riding others horses (not my own)… would Harry Hall cover it? It talks about ownership which it wouldn’t be? Thanks
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Harry Hall would cover any horse you ride or handle in the Uk, regardless of ownership, I have this as a rider of others horses at £4.50 per month and even added on bone fracture for myself for only an extra £1.50 per month.
 
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