Public sector pensions

[Anglebracket]

They do not have a free at point of delivery Health Service - no other country in the world does

In Germany everyone is signed up to mandatory health insurance. For employees both the employee and the employer make a contribution towards the employees health insurance (a bit like national insurance contributions). If you are unemployed your health insurance will be covered by the state. Children are covered by their parents health insurance. To the best of my knowledge so are students. Homeless people can fall through the cracks (in that they are not associated with any particular insurance company) but should be covered by the state if they seek medical care. To all intends and purposes the German system is quite similar to that of the UK in that you pay for your health care through deductions from your salary.

The above describes public health insurance which most employees have. High earners can alternatively sign up to private health insurance.

 

[Mithras]

of this half a million are civil service.

The percentage of PS workers is massive compared to Germany's 9%. Are the figures comparing like for like and if so how is Germany functioning on 9%.
I can see wastage and slack in the system here but not that much.

Having only lived in England how do things run in Germany civil service, health servicewise etc etc.

No, that will be right, as the German figure doesn't include an equivalent amount employed in the NHS - because they don't have one. Their system is insurance based. It works really well - I had my tonsils out in a hospital in Munich, and it was much cheaper to get it done there than in Scotland privately (although technically it wasn't possible in the UK at that time anyway as there was a moritorium on all tonsilectomies due to contaminated instruments). Public transport in Germany is superb - when I lived outside Munich, I had an S Bahn line with trains every 20 minutes, running til 4am. Munich itself is connected then by U Bahn, also by trams and busses. It had 8 concentric S Bahn lines linking up its suburbs to the centre, although I believe they have now built a new one to the airport, in less time than the controversial Edinburgh tramline has taken so far. Most German and Dutch towns have similar public transport, also with proper cycle lanes seperate from the roads.

 

[Anglebracket]

No, that will be right, as the German figure doesn't include an equivalent amount employed in the NHS - because they don't have one. Their system is insurance based. It works really well - I had my tonsils out in a hospital in Munich, and it was much cheaper to get it done there than in Scotland privately (although technically it wasn't possible in the UK at that time anyway as there was a moritorium on all tonsilectomies due to contaminated instruments). Public transport in Germany is superb - when I lived outside Munich, I had an S Bahn line with trains every 20 minutes, running til 4am. Munich itself is connected then by U Bahn, also by trams and busses. It had 8 concentric S Bahn lines linking up its suburbs to the centre, although I believe they have now built a new one to the airport, in less time than the controversial Edinburgh tramline has taken so far. Most German and Dutch towns have similar public transport, also with proper cycle lanes seperate from the roads.

Mitras where did you get the 9% figure from? I was looking for this information a few days back and could not find anything.

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

To all intends and purposes the German system is quite similar to that of the UK in that you pay for your health care through deductions from your salary.

Similar but no the same as they pay more for their drugs than stupid notional 7 quid here which only applies to a pathetic 10% of precriptions due to all the exemptions etc They are also more used to speaking to their pharmacists for advise on the more routine conditions and then buying medicine from them instead of sitting in a GP's surgery to demand a 'free' prescription for something that can be bought over the counter Each 10 minute GP appointment cost the NHS approx £800+

 

[Mithras]

German culture is very much to stick by the rules and I suspect they employ a lot less people checking up on what other people are doing. There are blocks of flats where someone will report you if you do not have your curtains in the colour specified in your tenancy agreement, or there were when a friend of mine lived there ten years ago. I doubt very much that such a society employs five-a-day advisors.

I think theres more individual responsiblity for society, rather than placing everything on the state. Certainly, German "grannies" are renowned for telling people off, but sometimes this can be quite useful and perhaps if more people did it here there would be less thugs around. I've had some good experiences with the German "grannies", they can be very kind. I think people in apartment buildings might get reported to the Hausmeister if they had really scruffy curtains and were dirty or something. But generally its for things such as if people are shouting late at night in apartment blocks, or constantly leaving their washing machines on. But I found Germany to be a much freer society.

Scotland's really strict now. For instance, we have these HMO Regulations for all rented properties, which keep changing, but there must be 30 minute fire resistant self closing doors in all rooms, because people are not trusted to close their own doors after them! Each property is licensed and inspected each year by the local authority. The regulations are so prescriptive and strict, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they brought in a rule saying that a landlord has to actually move in with their tenants, give up their job, and look after their every need full time, in the next edition. In contrast, in Germany you only need to ensure to renew your central heating boiler and windows in rented properties at least every 25 years. Germans are shocked when I tell them about the HMO Regulations, and because of this, I don't think we will invest in property in Scotland again.

 

[Mithras]

Mitras where did you get the 9% figure from? I was looking for this information a few days back and could not find anything.

Can't find it now, somewhat frustratingly. But I did find this:

http://www.kas.de/wf/doc/kas_14069-544-1-30.pdf

Which refers to 7.1%, not 9%! It refers to "civil servants" but I am pretty sure this means all the public sector, as the translation means public sector worker.

Also see this one, which states it is 6.7 million in Germany, which with a population of nearly 82 million, would be just under 9%:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/fsdust.pdf

Also, look at this for the British position, which claims that the public sector accounts for 53% of the economy!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...my-record-6-09million-Britons-work-state.html

Yes, sorry its the Daily Mail, but it came up when I googled it!

(I just googled "German employment in the public sector").

 

[DragonSlayer]

...so we should all bugger off to Germany then? Sounds peachy....

Actually, I'll stay here.

I love my country, we might not be the best in the world and get it wrong some of the time, but I'm not into comparisons, being told 'how much better it is there because....'...

If it's that good, then stay.

I am proud to be British.

 

[Mithras]

...so we should all bugger off to Germany then? Sounds peachy....

Actually, I'll stay here.

I love my country, we might not be the best in the world and get it wrong some of the time, but I'm not into comparisons, being told 'how much better it is there because....'...

If it's that good, then stay.

I am proud to be British.

I don't know, comparison and critical analysis are valuable academic techniques, and I think living abroad so you can make comparisons is invaluable experience. Its actually shocking how bad Britain has got in many areas, when you do use comparitive analysis like this when compared to other Northern European nations. I dare say it wouldn't work so well with somewhere like Portugal or Greece, but some of the things that go on in the UK are quite shocking. (trams fiasco, London riots, poor manufacturing sector, etc).

Also remember, if you have any Anglo-Saxon blood in you, your ancestors will have made a decision based on economics of the time (basically where there was more good quality farmland available) and emigrated anyway. Seems a bit backward thinking to totally discount the same prospect. Although I agree there are parts of England which are still absolutely stunning and offer a very good standard of living.

 

[DragonSlayer]

I'm sure there are many good things you can pick out when you are looking at your comparisons, but I think we sometimes have to look at what we HAVE got, rather than the 'What If...' factor.

...and here I am comparing...! Compared to some countries, I think we have it pretty decently.

Freedom, I'm sat in a warm house, money in the bank, able to cover my bills, we eat pretty decently, if I need to, I can get treatment from medical professionals...etc etc etc....

Let's not loose sight of that whilst looking at 'What Could Be...'....

On another note, it has been a very educational thread so far.

 

[Anglebracket]

Can't find it now, somewhat frustratingly. But I did find this:

http://www.kas.de/wf/doc/kas_14069-544-1-30.pdf

Which refers to 7.1%, not 9%! It refers to "civil servants" but I am pretty sure this means all the public sector, as the translation means public sector worker.

Also see this one, which states it is 6.7 million in Germany, which with a population of nearly 82 million, would be just under 9%:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctpb21/Cpapers/fsdust.pdf

Also, look at this for the British position, which claims that the public sector accounts for 53% of the economy!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...my-record-6-09million-Britons-work-state.html

Yes, sorry its the Daily Mail, but it came up when I googled it!

(I just googled "German employment in the public sector").

Thanks for the links. I had a read through the slides (first link) and the presentation appears to focus specifically on administrative jobs rather than all public sector jobs.

 

[Mithras]

I'm sure there are many good things you can pick out when you are looking at your comparisons, but I think we sometimes have to look at what we HAVE got, rather than the 'What If...' factor.

...and here I am comparing...! Compared to some countries, I think we have it pretty decently.

Freedom, I'm sat in a warm house, money in the bank, able to cover my bills, we eat pretty decently, if I need to, I can get treatment from medical professionals...etc etc etc....

Let's not loose sight of that whilst looking at 'What Could Be...'....

On another note, it has been a very educational thread so far.

Well thats just the crux of it though. In Germany, and to a lesser extent Holland, Belguim and France, you expect a bit more than basic survival. If you have a decent job, you expect and feel entitled to a bit of luxury in your life. Neither are you made to feel guilty for it.

I was just thinking last night about how depressing it is living here. I went to university in Holland (Leiden) and when I went running there, it was down to the local club, who had their own rather lavish club rooms, with bar and pool room, showers, sauna, etc at the local athletics track. Which had plenty of parking and a 50m swimming pool right next door, all beautifully looked after. All subsidised heavily by the local council. In Germany, the track was free because it was included in your equivalent of Council tax (£250 a year). Here its running round a potholed pavement in the park, with most of the street lights on the blink, being shouted abuse at by neds, the public toilets locked and parking at the side of a busy road. Its crap. The athletics track costs £5.80 to get into, is badly needing resurfacing, theres not enough parking and the floodlights don't work.

And I had to get my tonsils out in Germany, because the NHS couldn't do the operation due to contaminated instruments...

 

[paddy555]

40/55ths salary after 40 years of work,

Santa Paws, chance would be a fine thing!! As a civil servant we talk about 80th's. It was changed a few years ago to 60th's but many of the people retiring now (or who have retired) and many who will retire in the future are paid a pension of the number of years service divided by 80.

When it was changed to 60th's then to benefit from this required contributions that did not make it effective to change onto 60th's for many of us.(from memory that was people over about 45 when it was changed) So, for many, the most they will get is half their salary and for many, especially women who have taken time off for family, it will be considerably less.
Still a taxpayer funded pension I agree but not quite as generous as you make out, at least not for us.

 

[Mithras]

Thanks for the links. I had a read through the slides (first link) and the presentation appears to focus specifically on administrative jobs rather than all public sector jobs.

No, this article indicates it is all public sector employees:-

"Public sector employment in Germany has risen from 2.2 million in 1950 to 2.9
million in 1960 to 4.6 million in the early 1980s to 4.97 million in 1992 for West
Germany and to 6.7 million for Germany as a whole.3 The most rapid expansion
of the public sector took place in the 1960s and 1970s. This was mainly induced
by an extension of the welfare state and the corresponding expansion of social,
educational and medical services (see Becker (1987))...

Public sector employment occurs at different levels: the central government,
state (Länder) and local authorities (Gemeinden), and financial and non-financial
public enterprises. In 1990, 77 per cent of all public employees were employed in
administrative jobs at government, state or local authority level...

The public sector in Germany distinguishes between two types of employees —
civil servants proper (Beamte) and both blue-collar (Arbeiter) and white-collar
(Angestellte) public sector employees."

What I will grant you is that I am unsure whether it refers to the 9% as being a percentage of all workers, or of all of the working age population.

 

[perfect11s]

Well thats just the crux of it though. In Germany, and to a lesser extent Holland, Belguim and France, you expect a bit more than basic survival. If you have a decent job, you expect and feel entitled to a bit of luxury in your life. Neither are you made to feel guilty for it.

I was just thinking last night about how depressing it is living here. I went to university in Holland (Leiden) and when I went running there, it was down to the local club, who had their own rather lavish club rooms, with bar and pool room, showers, sauna, etc at the local athletics track. Which had plenty of parking and a 50m swimming pool right next door, all beautifully looked after. All subsidised heavily by the local council. In Germany, the track was free because it was included in your equivalent of Council tax (£250 a year). Here its running round a potholed pavement in the park, with most of the street lights on the blink, being shouted abuse at by neds, the public toilets locked and parking at the side of a busy road. Its crap. The athletics track costs £5.80 to get into, is badly needing resurfacing, theres not enough parking and the floodlights don't work.

And I had to get my tonsils out in Germany, because the NHS couldn't do the operation due to contaminated instruments...

Im wondering what the hell I see in this country some days ??? its got some hold!! Ive worked abroad (NZ) and traveled north america, aus, some of europe holland is fantastic like germany, not sure I would be willing to fit in with the french so despite having relations living there will swerve it !! anyway yes it is great to work abroad as appossed to visiting as a tourist as you get a more gritty and true idea of real life and after a while are detached enough from home to have a objective view ..... I would definatly not be here save for being on the property ladder anyone with skils or an apitite for hard work but without a finacial cussion would be better of in a lot more places than here IMHO...

 

[Anglebracket]

No, this article indicates it is all public sector employees:-

"Public sector employment in Germany has risen from 2.2 million in 1950 to 2.9
million in 1960 to 4.6 million in the early 1980s to 4.97 million in 1992 for West
Germany and to 6.7 million for Germany as a whole.3 The most rapid expansion
of the public sector took place in the 1960s and 1970s. This was mainly induced
by an extension of the welfare state and the corresponding expansion of social,
educational and medical services (see Becker (1987))...

Public sector employment occurs at different levels: the central government,
state (Länder) and local authorities (Gemeinden), and financial and non-financial
public enterprises. In 1990, 77 per cent of all public employees were employed in
administrative jobs at government, state or local authority level...

The public sector in Germany distinguishes between two types of employees —
civil servants proper (Beamte) and both blue-collar (Arbeiter) and white-collar
(Angestellte) public sector employees."

What I will grant you is that I am unsure whether it refers to the 9% as being a percentage of all workers, or of all of the working age population.

I was referring to the powerpoint presentation (from the Economic Institute in Cologne), not the article. The article and the slides appear to be dealing with different subsections of the German public sector.

 

[cptrayes]

40/55ths salary after 40 years of work,

Santa Paws, chance would be a fine thing!! As a civil servant we talk about 80th's. It was changed a few years ago to 60th's but many of the people retiring now (or who have retired) and many who will retire in the future are paid a pension of the number of years service divided by 80.

When it was changed to 60th's then to benefit from this required contributions that did not make it effective to change onto 60th's for many of us.(from memory that was people over about 45 when it was changed) So, for many, the most they will get is half their salary and for many, especially women who have taken time off for family, it will be considerably less.
Still a taxpayer funded pension I agree but not quite as generous as you make out, at least not for us.

Apologies, the 55ths is NHS, currently striking over being asked to move to 60ths and likely to settle for 58ths.

The career breaks are no different in the private sector and for the point of the comparison I made are irrelevant.

 

[cptrayes]

I love this country and I never want to live anywhere else.

I am reminded by my OH that Germany are prevented from the terms of their settlement after WW II that they cannot have a standing army, and presumably have no significant air force or navy either? That must reduce their public sector rather a lot.

Have I said? I love this country and I never want to live anywhere else. The grass may look greener but it rarely is. I wonder why people who think it's so great to live in another country in Europe don't just go and do it instead of sitting here whinging about Britain.

 

[perfect11s]

I love this country and I never want to live anywhere else.

I am reminded by my OH that Germany are prevented from the terms of their settlement after WW II that they cannot have a standing army, and presumably have no significant air force or navy either? That must reduce their public sector rather a lot.

Have I said? I love this country and I never want to live anywhere else. The grass may look greener but it rarely is. I wonder why people who think it's so great to live in another country in Europe don't just go and do it instead of sitting here whinging about Britain.

Maybe we arnt like rats deserting a sinking ship!!! we want it to be better great even !!!! Mind if labour get back in im ether leaving or getting a public sector job

 

[paddy555]

The grass may look greener but it rarely is. I wonder why people who think it's so great to live in another country in Europe don't just go and do it instead of sitting here whinging about Britain.

agreed

 

[skint1]

England is indeed a great country but I admit to being a bit dismayed by some features of our modern life, but that could just be me getting old and becoming an irrelevant dinosaur

 

[Mithras]

I love this country and I never want to live anywhere else.

I am reminded by my OH that Germany are prevented from the terms of their settlement after WW II that they cannot have a standing army, and presumably have no significant air force or navy either? That must reduce their public sector rather a lot.

Have I said? I love this country and I never want to live anywhere else. The grass may look greener but it rarely is. I wonder why people who think it's so great to live in another country in Europe don't just go and do it instead of sitting here whinging about Britain.

If you don't criticise, analyse and compare, its the slippery slope to a continual lessening of standards. Nothing wrong with valid criticism and comparison with other countries. IMHO preferable to sticking the head in the sand and pretending everything is wonderful, when it can simply be improved by a little effort. What I also found in Germany is that in general the average person is more aware of the issues that led them into two world wars, and more educated about things like racism, strong nationalism and so on. I cannot believe how tolerant the Germans are to the way some of the immigrant communities behave.

I think I already made the point that the UK is comprised significantly of Anglo-Saxons, who manage to have the courage to leave presumably poor conditions in their home country 1500 years ago. I see no reason why, with the assistance of modern technology, it should not be possible to have a similar attitude now!

But I do know what you mean, I often feel homesick for a more continental way of life, particularly things like the cycling culture in Holland and Belguim, the smell of the fields in the flat lands in summer, the rain sheeting down over the dykes, the shape of the houses, the tidyness, the way people clear snow from the path in front of their houses, the food - pancakes in nice cafes, and so on. Gezellig.

I don't feel myself particularly tied to a country, I would say I prefer to live in North Western Europe, but I have a bit of an abhorence of really strong nationalism. And if Scotland does go independent I will certainly be leaving them to their high tax and spend supposed Utopia. Come to think of it, I'd probably be happier even in England than in Scotland, with what is going on here lately! It can be a strange place...