Puppies! Can now be purchased via PayPal! Yay!

Haven't read all the posts but did look at that website - OMG - the poor dogs - they are just puppy machines and they are admitting it!!! So what if the law allows you to have one litter a year - what if the bitch is so thin they need a year off - doesn't look like they have considered it for their dogs, and with a breed that has large litters that is alot taken out of the bitch each time. If they were well loved pets they would not be being put through this every year, and so what if you are raising them all in your home - I hate to think of the mess!, but because you are producing so many and you say it is your 'business' it just says to me you can't afford proper facilities!!!:O
A puppy farm isn't just dogs with no food/toys/in a shed etc - it is someone who makes money out of selling large quantities of puppies - usually very poor quality ones as these look to be.

I don't even know where to start - the website is poorly written, the dogs look skinny even under all that fur - it's not hard to feed a bitch properly with good quality food to keep their condition even with a big litter.
It looks like they are giving birth on a bed - no whelping boxes - they are not just a fashion statement but a safe place for newborn pups so are a necessity and also hygienic!
I'm not a GSD fan at all - but they look like awful examples of the breed and you are obviously just buying anything with a uterus and mating it to your dog just because it has nuts - the fact one has an unknown litter, and the previous owner has no contact to even keep a tab on their dog, just tells you the sort of people they are buying their breeding stock from!!!

They have put they are making money out of their dogs and kids - are they breeding them too?!!! HOW can anyone make any money from breeding dogs anyway - or anything really - unless you cut corners ie. cheap bulk feeds, no proper health tests - all these people have mentioned is getting hips done and hemophilia on the dog only, what about the other tests for this breed?
And what happens to the unwanted pups after they are no longer little cute fluffy things - I hate to think. I had a litter of pups from my ridgeback bitch many years ago as I wanted a pup from her, and it cost a fortune I didn't even cover the costs let alone make a profit - so always baffles the hell out of me when people say they can make money, and that was when all went well and we didn't need a c-section/hand rear or anything else drastic like that, not to mention my time!!!

They mention puppy packs - great - but they show a bunch of things that are free from a vets, and even then state these are only available if the vet has them - a puppy pack should include a large bag of puppy food that they are currently on, a book on the breed, some care instructions, basic training recommendations, 5 generation pedigree, microchip details etc. and the breeder should supply all of these.

No mention of what they are feeding the puppies/bitches, how often etc.

Most breeders only have 1 or 2 litters off a bitch in its LIFETIME, so as not to flood the gene pool, and to make sure the bitch isn't bred to the point where it shortens their life - not one a year until it drops dead.
How do they find responsible homes for ALL those puppies they are churning out, especially in a recession - unless they are just selling them to any random member of the public with cash, which with the attitude of the puppy farm owner I would imagine so!!
Also decent breeders take back any unwanted dogs they have bred no matter how old it is, another reason to limit litters - how many potential dogs must that be from this place???!!!!!:O
Most breeders only breed because they want a pup from a certain bitch - no-one does it to make money and have it as their sole income!!!! - just beggers belief!!!!:O

I'd listen to others if you want to breed and have a good reputation then buy better stock, use outside stud dogs that have done well and actually compliment each bitch, get involved with the breed and other breeders, have fewer litters so you can ask higher prices and your pups will be sought after, instead of getting a bad reputation and having to try and justify to people what you are doing now!!!
 
oooooooooooohhh, a bit close to the bone Alex mate , no need to rip the poor peoples life apart, if you dont agree fine, but lets just stand back a bit, these are real people with children , no need to assasinate them, they hurt too .
 
Tweedette - they put their website on the net for the public to view, it's up to them what they put on it, if they don't want people commenting on the state of their dogs and the fact they are churning out pups then they should remove pics of thin dogs and not have so many litters.

Cobgirlie - these are some of the costs I incurred having my litter of 10 pups several years ago:

Health tests,
Stud fee - £1000 for a very nice stud dog,
Petrol to take my bitch to the dog, twice, who was nearly 4hrs away,
Scans at vet,
Feed for the bitch - we feed James Wellbeloved puppy in the last stage, she also had goats milk in the last few weeks too, plus meat from the butcher if she wanted it,
Whelping box,
Vet bedding - the fluffy white washable stuff - several large squares of it,
The pups started eating solids at 2.5 weeks old, they were getting through 15kg of James wellbeloved puppy every 3 days by the time they were 5 weeks old and it was £45 per bag, and a couple of pints of goats milk,
Vet checks,
Toys,
Advertising,
Washing machine going 3 times a day,
Vast quantities of floor cleaner and bin bags - luckily we have stone floors!,
KC documents,
Wormer several times,
Microchips for those we still had at 8 weeks - 5 of them + first vaccinations,
Puppy packs,
One pup had a defect of her windpipe so required veterinary care for that.
The washing machine broke and I had to get a new one - didn't count that but still!!:D
It all adds up and as we are very rural we only charged £500 per pup for top pedigree ridgebacks, also 4 had no ridges so they were half that and went to people we knew without papers, they are all now neutered, we kept 3 out of the litter unfortunately the one with the defect died at 15 weeks old.
Then there were the neutering costs of the 2, a bitch and a dog, plus mum.
If you add my time into it as well then I hate to think!!!:D If any of them need rehoming in the future then I will certainly take them back.
Plus as well if you are a serious shower the show costs soon add up to.
 
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Alex ,I would`nt DREAM of feeding JWB to either my puppies or my adults,proper raw quality meat ONLY here.And NOT ONE of my puppies leaves here a day before eight weeks old at the very earliest.
Never have counted up the costs..whatever is needed they get,the aim is to produce a well reared and adjusted puppy for excellent vetted homes;anyone intending to feed my baby on dried food is requested to make use of the door.:rolleyes:
 
Debbie, whilst I won't deny that it is far preferable to see dogs living with the family such as yours are, rather than in "battery" kennels, the issue I for one have is that you are breeding a large amount of puppies each year, although you say you are having some of your dogs hip scored it does sound as if you have bred from non scored parents.
Yes very occasionally a bitch does come off a litter in poor condition, but ime they are more likely to come off quite podgy, although of course lacking coat and looking horrible. Re people paying a deposit to reserve a pup before they have seen it, once you have met the people and you feel they are not suitable for one of your pups, do you refund the deposit? I personally would not be happy taking a deposit until the would be purchasers had met the puppies, and more to the point I had met them and discussed exactly what they are looking for.
You are holding your hands up and saying your dog breeding is a business and you are making a living from it, but your dogs are producing an awful lot of puppies each year, if you really love the breed, why don't you consider reducing the number of litters, I know from experience how hard it is to find the right home for an intelligent, active dog like the shepherd, if you are finding these people for all those puppies I am impressed, and a little surprised.
 
tweedette said:
he could do you a mathmatecal formula for anything, yet couldnt reverse a car!!!
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Sorry but that did make me laugh. I have an image of him sat in his car, trying to create the mathematical formula required to reverse out of his driveway :) White GSDs are indeed highly undesirable in the breed standard, along with blues and livers, lack of undercoat etc. CC could give you a far more articulate breakdown of the history and genetics than I could.

Debbie- I have no doubt you love your dogs. But the concerns over your breeding practices within this thread are valid ones in my opinion. I won't hash through them again, but would urge you to think carefully about Kitsmas_Puddings advice re: quality over quantity.
 
It is too long ago since I had a litter of pups to remember exact costs, but I won't deny I made some money out of the litter, I bought myself a lawnmower! I made 2 journeys to the stud dog, who was actually quite local, only around 150 miles away and had quite a reasonable stud fee. The bitch had of course been hip scored, and had the usual litter rearing costs, eg vet beds, heat lamps, extra food for bitch and pups, kc reg, tattooing etc, etc, and out of 5 pups I kept one , and sold the rest for £350 each, one pup covered stud fee, and quite a large chunk from the remaining 3 went on rearing costs.
The bitch came from many generations of my breeding, I never have many dogs and it was my intention to keep a bitch to carry on the line. It was the dams second litter, a bitch was kept from her first litter who was successful in working trials until a fall from the scale injured her back, she was therefore unable to be bred from as planned , hence the second litter. The bitch I kept was everything I wanted looks and temperament wise, but sadly at 12 months when x rayed she had bad hips, so no breeding from her, and end of my line.:( Although happily she is still with me 10 years later and is a much loved part of the family.)
So cobgirlie, yes I did make a profit, but I didn't breed for profit I bred to carry on my line, and also to be able to provide puppies to the people who had bought dogs from me over the years and were looking to replace a sadly lost oldie. I still have people contacting me now for pups and as said it is 10 years since the last litter.
 
The man I bought my dogs off has never made a penny from dogs, he will tell you that himself. He owns his own company, he doesn't have to use them for income.

Debbie, while I am glad you have started to health test, you weren't advertising that fact the last time I looked at your website, which would have been last year some time.
While I am glad you are starting to clean up your act, I stand by what I said earlier, you are not acting in the best interest of the breed as a whole.
Look a little further than YOUR back yard, the breed as a whole, and do your best for it, not what suits yourself, only that way will the breed ever improve.
 
Pix said:
Sorry but that did make me laugh. I have an image of him sat in his car, trying to create the mathematical formula required to reverse out of his driveway :) White GSDs are indeed highly undesirable in the breed standard, along with blues and livers, lack of undercoat etc. CC could give you a far more articulate breakdown of the history and genetics than I could.

Debbie- I have no doubt you love your dogs. But the concerns over your breeding practices within this thread are valid ones in my opinion. I won't hash through them again, but would urge you to think carefully about Kitsmas_Puddings advice re: quality over quantity.
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Oh, pix, you should have met him, he spoke 17 languages and translated hebrew for a hobby , he was - as he called himself - A rustic Eccentric, he would ring me 4 times a day and if he was in hospital he reversed charges as he couldnt use the payphone. His first words on every call were - 'Right!! have you got a pen - Write this down!!!' - just loved the old guy and wish he could see the dogs now.He had a photographic memory - lucky, I wish I had my memory fails me so often now.
 
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Tell you what Debbie, you're not the first person who has made a few mistakes when they first got into dog breeding, deliberate or not.

My own own mother's first litter came about because she didn't realise leaving an entire male and an entire female alone together all the time was a bit of a silly idea. She came home one day and there was a litter of pups.
She did her homework and went on to be one of the very early signatories of the hip scoring scheme.

If you ever decide to clean up your act a bit, go back to basics, start again and start doing things a bit more responsibly, if you have any questions at all or need any help, feel free to send MM or I an PM with any questions you might have, about anything at all and I for one will be happy to help.

I have no axe to grind, no puppies to sell, no stud fees to gain, no ribbons to collect, all I care about is the future and the welfare of the German Shepherd Dog.

You might want to think about elbow testing too, the GSD is a weightbearing breed and elbows are just as important as hips these days.
 
CaveCanem said:
Tell you what Debbie, you're not the first person who has made a few mistakes when they first got into dog breeding, deliberate or not.

My own own mother's first litter came about because she didn't realise leaving an entire male and an entire female alone together all the time was a bit of a silly idea. She came home one day and there was a litter of pups.
She did her homework and went on to be one of the very early signatories of the hip scoring scheme.

If you ever decide to clean up your act a bit, go back to basics, start again and start doing things a bit more responsibly, if you have any questions at all or need any help, feel free to send MM or I an PM with any questions you might have, about anything at all and I for one will be happy to help.

I have no axe to grind, no puppies to sell, no stud fees to gain, no ribbons to collect, all I care about is the future and the welfare of the German Shepherd Dog.

You might want to think about elbow testing too, the GSD is a weightbearing breed and elbows are just as important as hips these days.
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I think the above is really nice - good on you cavey, at last a little bit of positive thinking, educate dont persecute, well done.
 
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