Puppies for sale

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Spook

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It seems that there are far more puppies for sale here than usual, is it the same allover the UK or is it specific to NE Scotland?
 
I rather thought this was the case.

Is there a lobby to reduce the breeding of puppies, such as there is for horses?

What is the solution?
 
Better education of puppy buyers, therefore stopping the problem at source, more reporting of people who breed their pets solely to top up their income to the taxman, more education/provision of neutering/spay vouchers.
If people are willing to hand over cash to shysters, the shysters will keep breeding.
However I do not know how to legislate against people who want a cheap, poorly-bred puppy, NOW.

(For the millionth time, I am not anti-breeder, I am anti-bad breeder and pro-responsible breeding :))

Would love to see a moratorium on breeding certain breeds, we are not going to run out of, for a year, but who would have the balls to do it?
 
Just checked puppies for sale ads in Tradeit which serves the south west.

Staffies 159
Jrs 100
Chis. 97
Labs. 76
Cockers 73
GSD 60

Mixed breeds 169

Thats an awful lot of puppies,they cant all be back street breeders, so responsible breeders ie health testing etc must still be breeding still, cant believe all these puppies are going to find homes.

I didnt list any breeds under 60 and some breeds only had one advert .
 
Dobiegirl said:
Just checked puppies for sale ads in Tradeit which serves the south west.

Staffies 159
Jrs 100
Chis. 97
Labs. 76
Cockers 73
GSD 60

Mixed breeds 169

Thats an awful lot of puppies,they cant all be back street breeders, so responsible breeders ie health testing etc must still be breeding still, cant believe all these puppies are going to find homes.

I didnt list any breeds under 60 and some breeds only had one advert .
Click to expand...

so.. Staffies = 159 puppies. Staffs who make up around 80% of the total population of dogs in rescue. Really nice responsible breeders NOT
 
Its the times I think, people are trying to find ways of making money.

Dogs unfortunatly are starting to become an accessory as well.


school run, pram, kids in tow, dog.....


Bootfair, take the dog....


pub, take the dog....


go to work, take the dog....


go into town, take the dog... (this I dont understand at all)


Go to pets at home to buy a bag of bakers, take the dog...


Being a bit hypicritical here as mine are x breeds (one bought as a puppy) they do go towork, go to bootfairs, go to pub, but they do get proper walks and arent fed bakers.
 
Luci07 said:
so.. Staffies = 159 puppies. Staffs who make up around 80% of the total population of dogs in rescue. Really nice responsible breeders NOT
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No that is not right, unfortunately thats 159 adverts:eek: advertising litters so work out what the average sized litter is and mutiple by 159, sickening isnt it.:mad:
 
Genuine question: What is the difference between breeding/rearing dogs for profit, and breeding/rearing sheep, cows, horses etc.
 
foxy1 said:
Genuine question: What is the difference between breeding/rearing dogs for profit, and breeding/rearing sheep, cows, horses etc.
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We have too many companion animals full stop IMO - dogs, cats, horses etc etc.

Sheep and cows are not generally companion animals (I know some are pets but they are exception, not the rule), they are normally bred for a purpose - to provide meat, milk, wool, leather etc. If they are surplus to requirements, they generally go to slaughter, and that is an end to it. Whereas with companion animals like dogs etc they are in danger of being passed from pillar to post, ending up in the wrong hands, being abused etc. People get dogs on a whim because they think they're cute and discard them when they get big and smelly - as far as I know, cows are at less risk of this, being as they are considerably harder to housetrain;).
 
A: The fall-out. There are no cow rescue centres or sheep shelters full to bursting, as far as I am aware. Cow and sheep production and QUALITY horse production is an industry. Dog breeding is not and neither should it be a lazy way to top up one's income. In my opinion :)
 
Dobiegirl said:
No that is not right, unfortunately thats 159 adverts:eek: advertising litters so work out what the average sized litter is and mutiple by 159, sickening isnt it.:mad:
Click to expand...

Oh that has really really upset me - litter size can be quite large with staffords now - upto 8 at a time. Althought of course the dogs in the adverts will bear very VERY little resemblance to a properly bred Stafford.
 
Ok, that's a great reason for no-one to breed any dogs, but why is it ok for showing/working people to breed and not pet owners?

Lots of horse rescue full to bursting, but no-one has a go at commercial horse breeders....
 
Because good breeders don't normally end up with their puppies in rescue. The:

Vet the people wanting to buy their puppies
Breed only when they want their next star dog - not just to make a quick buck
Take back any puppies that end up homeless - even if this is years later
Carry out all the required health tests for their breed so that the puppies have the best chance of good health throughout their lives

Random breeding of horses is just as bad, and actually if you take a look around I think you'll find that a lot of people on here are against this trend of 'bung my mare in foal because she can't be ridden / she's cute / I want a cutey foalie-woalie / add your own stupid reason here'. You may also be aware that the BHS have a responsible breeding campaign to try and combat this, so to say that no one thinks it's a problem is quite inaccurate.

The good breeders of dogs and horses make little or no profit on their puppies and foals, because they plough huge amounts of money into doing things right to get the best possible puppy or foal.
 
What type of horse or dog is more likely to end up in rescue? It happens of course, but you are much less likely to find a well bred horse or dog in rescue. It's the dogs who were bred on whim, by accident, because the parents were 'nice' or to earn their owners money, who end up on the scrapheap more often than not.

Also - the vast majority of show or working bred dogs go to pet homes. Just because they come from certain lines does not preclude them from being companions. All of our past dogs (pets) have come from litters bred for the showring.
Responsible breeders breed for one or maybe two to work, show or continue their line, one or two will go to a show or working home, the rest as pets and there is often a waiting list, will vet home and will always take back unwanted pups and health test breeding stock. And breed once or twice in a bitch's lifetime, not once or twice a year.
 
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So if someone bred a cross bred litter:

from healthy parents,
with good temperaments,
from suitably matched breeds without inherited health problems/health tested appropriately for breed,
properly checked out their puppy buyers including a contract to say they puppy to be returned if they ever need to re-home him/her

then you wouldn't say they were an irresponsible breeder .....?
 
Possibly - it would also depend on the cross and crucially, on the purpose for breeding the litter. For example, there was a fab Lab x Springer on a shoot I went on last year - great dog, from two fairly compatible breeds, which had clearly been bred with a purpose in mind (to work on the shooting field) from decent parents. So assuming the parents were health tested for their breed issues and the breeder would have had it back and vetted the home, yes, that's fairly responsible breeding.

If you were say, crossing a Great Dane with a Jack Russell, or a Husky with a Corgi, then not so much... And regardless, I do not think that breeding to make money, or because the parent dogs are very cute, are ever good enough reasons to breed. I don't think it's right to bung together two breeds then charge extortionate amounts for the resulting puppies either, or to give them a silly name. Sorry!
 
No, but money should be last on the list of motivations for breeding IMO.
Dogs, as well as having good tempers, should be of good breed type, being a good example of the breed and having a nice temper is not mutually exclusive, ditto good health test results.
If people want to earn money, get a job :)
Said it before, one of my dog's breeders is a millionaire but he never made a penny out of dogs!
 
Oh and if anyone can explain how it can possibly cost the price of a litter to raise one, I'd be very interested to hear it....?

If showing people (for example) are so against people earning money from breeding dogs why don't they give their puppies away?

An awful lot of hypocrisy is spouted on this subject from the doggie fraternity ;)
 
Don't know exactly, we haven't bred a litter since the late 1980s and don't intend to ever again. Money and mouth and all that :)
Hips and elbows per dog under the international system is around £300 a dog.
Outside stud fee in the hundreds, money set aside for complications, feeding, vaccinations, money for entry to competitions (I would not breed from an unshown or untitled dog - I want to know it is a good specimen of it's breed) it really tots up if you do it properly.
Also we have not shown since the mid 1990s.
My last two dogs were £300 each, show lines , my youngest was £500, would have been a grand as a baby puppy.
I was paying for the health testing of his parents, the genetics, the potential, the lines. His parents have both competed at world level and so have many of his relatives.
I pay to know EXACTLY what is behind my dogs, for good or bad. With my older dog I can say 'well I won't be buying from those lines again' :p
 
Hip/Elbow scores £300
Cost of pup £500
Feeding a litter £80 (generous!)
Registering a litter £120
Stud fee £500 (again, generous!)

Price of 8 x GSD puppies £4000
minus expenses of £1500

Profit £2500

Most good GSD's go for £650 upwards too.....



But no breeder earns money
 
I would charge your time too, if you are in it for profit you have to charge the hours cleaning up and generally looking after them. Obviously its profitable or no one would do it! You can eat a sheep or a cow if its superfluous.
 
Ok I am planning on breeding a litter from my bitch early next year. I haven't done all the costings yet, e.g. not checked the stud fee of the dog I am going to use, but at a guess it will be roughly the same as one puppy. I am also planning on keeping a pup so that is another one out of the profit figures. I am also at the very early stages of possibly donating a pup to pathfinders guide dogs, if that happens that would be 3 out of the equation. I am not planning on charging £650 as I think that is too high for pups from an unshown bitch, although she is from top lines and is imho show quality.
To add to your figures Foxy I would add cost of microchipping and tattooing each pup before it goes to its new home, vet visit at least once to check out the bitch post whelping, minimum 5kg bag of quality food to go with each pup, etc.
I will not deny that I may well make some money out of this hopefully future litter, but as it will be the first litter I have bred in 11 years I'm not planning on giving up work. As long as I have enough to have Evie spayed I will be happy.
 
foxy1 said:
Hip/Elbow scores £300
Cost of pup £500
Feeding a litter £80 (generous!)
Registering a litter £120
Stud fee £500 (again, generous!)

Price of 8 x GSD puppies £4000
minus expenses of £1500

Profit £2500

Most good GSD's go for £650 upwards too.....



But no breeder earns money
Click to expand...

There were only five in the litter. Two retained by the breeder.
And you are not counting the parents' entry/competition fees over the years.
It was the bitch's first and only litter.

I never said they don't earn money - but responsible/good breeders DO plough it back into their dogs. It cost thousands to compete my dog's sire on the continent last year (and yes, I did see it with my own eyes, he doesn't do 'paper' qualifications :p)

Here's the deal - I paid £500 for a quality dog. Attributes mentioned.

If you look some links posted here in the past, I could have paid much more than that, almost double, for a pup which bears no resemblance to the breed standard, of mostly unknown breeding with no health tests on any of the relatives and (alleged :p) links to epileptic and dysplastic lines on the fatherline, no competition record of any kind and no genetics, potential or ability to do anything in future if I so desired.
But they came in pretty colours and had BIG PAWS and the breeder talked a good game, if you didn't know what to look for.

So I know which breeders I will reward with my cash (not someone who is going to buy a car or a conservatory with the money) and which breeders to recommend to those who come to me for recommendations :)
 
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Most breeders look upon a litter as a gamble .
They put money into their hobby and health testing, stud fees, travel - I have taken bitches abroad for mating -and with luck they with have a bit left once the last of the litter goes.

My last litter was three puppies. One bitch, two dogs.
Bitch whelped two and then needed a midnight Caesarean to have the third.
The two males went to friends, one in the UK & one in Scandinavia. I kept the bitch.
I was down in direct outlay about £500 on the litter and that was 14 years ago. At the time puppies were £200 each. The exported one was sold for this plus keep & actual costs and became an International champion.
It would have been cheaper to buy in a bitch instead of breeding one.

Of course if I'd cut the corners and used my own dog - top stud in the breed that year - rather than bring in new lines and not had the extra vets fees I could have been up about a weeks pay on a litter of three. Not much for sleepless nights and time spent with them.



If you compare with horse prices why do people pay more for proven competition bloodlines - is that paying for the stud owners hobby?
 
I dont have a problem with a responsible breeder making a profit after all you are also paying for their time and expertise.

I do have a problem though with breeders who have mutiple breeds and have anything from 5-10 or more brood bitches.
 
To me it is not a hobby, an addiction perhaps :p joking aside, I am looking at the bigger picture, the breed as a whole, not MY dogs and MY business and what is at the end of MY nose.
To me it is ploughing money back into the BREED and trying to keep standards high.
The competition last year happened before this mating took place so you are off the mark there as well.

Breeding Betsy to Bruce in the backyard for cash and damn the consequences, is one of the reasons my breed has health problems in the first place - then those same people who buy those types of dogs or laugh at people like me who support responsible breeding, moan that 'their hips are shot'.

I see putting health tests and qualifications and achieving accolades for work and for conformation and breeding from those types of animals, is better for the breed as a whole.

Foxy1, you seem to just like poo-pooing what I say, or is it playing devil's advocate :p I am clearly not going to change your mind :) fair enough, people will keep breeding (sometimes poor :p) animals to line their own pockets (NOT spending it on the dogs/horses) until the end of time, it's just not what I choose to spend my cash on and not something I would ever encourage other people to do, or to fund :)
 
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Feed a litter for £80.00 ?? What junk would that be? Done well the costs do mount up,you hope to get recompense at sale time.Show breeders do not out their puppies at eight weeks,the best are run on to assess further,sometimes to six months or more.And why should `nt a skill such as breeding top show dogs be paid for? The old saying "you get what you pay for" is so true.
The general public tend to go for the cheapest they can find in a breed,and more often repent at leisure,then every breeder gets tarred with the same brush:mad: It is crazy,same as comparing buying,say, a show hunter from a market sale or from a show hunter breeder..no comparison.
Sometimes,rarely ,you might get a reasonable looking puppy out of the Freeads, but one thing I can promise you,it will not consistantly reproduce it`s own type..no background to it,so it cannot.
Too many buyers end up with something that does`nt even resemble the breed by goiung the cheapskate route. Working dog people also go for the top trial lines in their breed rather than waste time trying to train a pet bred dog.Knew a man once who complained his labrador was gun-shy,and had no retrieving instinct.I was just speechless when he admitted he bought it in Harrods!!!:D:D
 
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