Puppy and young bitch constantly play fighting - reaching the end of my tether!!

Superhot said:
Alecs post read as if he was suggesting physical pain, picking a dog up by its jowels, and I don't apologise for finding this behaviour abuse. When I took my young Lab to a local gun dog training session, another handler couldn't get his dog to instantly carry out his command. So he put his fingers inside the pups mouth, dug his nails in to its gums and lifted the dog up and hung it there.
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There's a difference between grabbing a dogs jowls and digging your nails into it's gums. From what I understand Alec didn't mean lift the whole dog up by it's jowls merely lift it slightly closer to you. The way I see it it's no different to scruffing a dog, doesn't hurt it but accompanied a growly "NO!" or just a growl lets the dog know it's stepped over the line and it isn't top dog. Watch the way dogs interact with each other or see how a mother dog teaches her puppies they're doing something they shouldn't.

My male Wire Viz growled at me the other day because he'd been told off for starting on the old male, he got his beard grabbed and himself pushed to the floor with a "NO!" because that's what would have happened to him (minus the NO! lol) if the old boy wasn't too past putting him in his place, that and the fact I didn't hurt him and didn't cause any injury as would have happened if the two had actually been able to start a fight.

Generally find that the firm voice or the growly voice is enough to let them know you mean it. Oh and I only scruff my dogs if they're really in the wrong, like above when I was growled at, I don't do it every time I want the dogs to do something.

CaveCanem, you're brave teaching speak!! Lol, my mum taught one of our GWPs years ago to speak, which then got turned into "say please" which resulted in Flora saying "please" every time she saw the cupboard or fridge doors open!! :D Needless to say she wouldn't let me teach Flik the Viz baby to speak :p Not that Queen Fliktoria needs any teaching she's a noisy bum any way.

RE Rottie training, I'd persevere with the crate and the firm voice if OP doesn't want to square up and tell her what for, although I'd have done it by now - once is usually enough for it to sink in that you mean it *runs for cover*
 
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Superhot said:
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Alecs post read as if he was suggesting physical pain, .......

When I took my young Lab to a local gun dog training session, another handler couldn't get his dog to instantly carry out his command. So he put his fingers inside the pups mouth, dug his nails in to its gums and lifted the dog up and hung it there. ........
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You seem to have acquired the knack of misunderstanding and misquoting my posts. I wouldn't worry too much, you aren't alone!

For the sake of goodwill, I'll make a final attempt at explanation;

Para 1. Pain in itself is of no use in the training of dogs, except to drive aggression forwards. There are those dogs which through their own history or breed type or mental make up, can be difficult, self willed, or just plain bolshy. Discomfort, when it's expressed as pulling a dog about, by the loose skin around its neck, from above or below, tends to get the dog's attention, and those of recalcitrant bent, when young enough may benefit. When I stick a proper bol.locking into a dog, I want it's face before me, so that A/ It realises that I mean it, and B/ It's less likely to retaliate, by defending itself and the whole exercise ending up in a fight. It ISN'T a case of beating the dog, but beating it at its own game.

Para 2. I feel certain that you've completely misread, misunderstood and misreported the events which you witnessed. There is no way of lifting a dog up by it's jaw, whilst digging his nails into its gums. That would be pointless, and achieve nothing, and in the case of a Labrador dog of substantial weight, would result in injury to either or both the dog, or the handler.

I suspect that what you witnessed was a handler encouraging a dog to release its dummy, by applying pressure upon the gap between the molars, by gently squeezing from the outside. Many young dogs (more often male than female), when they are unsure of themselves will take a grip on a dummy, and refuse to release it. It's a problem which needs dealing with, with care and tact. A tug-of-war is completely out of the question, as is any form of violent or forceful insistence upon a release. So what to do? A gentle hand under the jaw, which also holds the dummy for post release, and the other hand which gently squeezes the lips, as you would when opening a dog's mouth to place a worm tablet within. It is neither barbaric nor cruel, and if it's done without a sense of enforcement, then the dog will very soon realise that it has nothing to fear.

Those dogs which take a firm hold on the dummy are all so often potentially good dogs which lack the confidence to face their handler. The problem all so often is that when we bend down to take the dummy, we can be seen as being aggressive with eye to eye contact, and the dog will generally do one of two things, it'll either spit the dummy out before arrival or do as I'm certain the dog did, which you witnessed.

There's another poster on here who seems convinced that those who take a firm line with dogs are either bullies or they're frightened of their dogs. I'm neither and I can assure you that I've trained a great many dogs, with a degree of success. My dogs don't fear me, but they do respect me, as I do them.

Think about my explanations above, and if you're still convinced that I'm a fool, then use the UI button, it's the easier way! ;)

Alec.
 
SusieT said:
pressure and release with horses tends to be pressure and release-with dogs it tends to be a painful stimulus/really threatening behaviour.
The idea is that we as humans are bigger than dogs and smarter so should be able to manipulate situations anyway without needing to '*******' dogs. That tends to actually be a result of people losing their temper or being afraid of their dogs.
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I spent a lot of today doing pressure and release, taut line until dog is where I want it, loose line when he gets there, feed or give ball on top of release of pressure, same if not better than with a horse as there is an additional reward on top of the release of pressure.

Using painful stimulus/really threatening behaviour with large dogs of German or Czech persuasion, will get one bitten, I find!!!
 
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The trouble with posting on forums is that you are not face to face, no inflection in the voice and can be misunderstood...that said, rest assured my eyesight is not failing me, and the incident I mentioned with the Lab did not involve a dummy. We all had to stand in a circle, command our dogs and leave them, handlers walking into the middle of the circle. When this particular Lab (pup about 4 months old) broke his stay, being picked up off the ground as I described, was his reward. No, I don't think you are a fool...
 
As a very small lady with a rather large rott I've got to totally agree with Alec, softly softly will by no means get the required response from a powerful dog who could technically kill me with one bite (if he so dared!) I don't even have to raise my voice now to the old man, the tone does it all! And yes, when he was a puppy he was pulled up face to face and told what for! A proper rollicking when he snapped at me for removing a bone and tbh he has never snapped again, I am boss in my house, what I say goes and I will not have it any other way. There is no room for negotiation, no kinda getting away with something, when I say stop I mean stop.
 
malakai said:
As a very small lady with a rather large rott I've got to totally agree with Alec, softly softly will by no means get the required response from a powerful dog who could technically kill me with one bite (if he so dared!) I don't even have to raise my voice now to the old man, the tone does it all! And yes, when he was a puppy he was pulled up face to face and told what for! A proper rollicking when he snapped at me for removing a bone and tbh he has never snapped again, I am boss in my house, what I say goes and I will not have it any other way. There is no room for negotiation, no kinda getting away with something, when I say stop I mean stop.
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Its interesting you should say this as i have in the last 2 days adopted the face to face and told what for tactic and its worked wonders. I just think i was initially being too soft!
 
I'm pleased its working for you! And I promise she will love you just as much for giving her boundaries :)

Remember, your word is law!!
 
Thank you malakai, I feel vindicated! :D

I do find it strange though, how those with an apparent lack of experience, will join together and tell me that I'm wrong, in that a forceful approach is the generally the answer to a dog which refuses any other entreaties, and yet when others recommend the use of electric collars, then they are strangely silent. :confused:

I have never used an electric collar, and I never will. I'm quite happy for others to do so, but I lack the experience and have no wish to experiment, with the dog as my victim.

Perhaps, as Dry Rot says, there are others who know better.

Alec.
 
Playing devil's advocate, but some might argue that a collar set on vibrate or on the very lightest tingle (I would describe it to having lemonade spilt on my hand) would not be as forceful as drawing a dog up to your head height by it's jowls.

Having said that, I don't use one either :p I've tried one on myself millions of times but I'd have to be confident in my own timing and if I was going to use one, I would prefer to spend the months introducing it properly rather than just whacking it on and pressing a button, that's the entirely wrong way to use it IMO.
 
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