puppy help wanted please

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paddy555

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I want a GSD puppy. Have had them before, have the time etc etc. It would be a pet not a working dog.
I have looked at several adult shepherds over the years and they were nice but that was it. Last week I saw a bitch who had everything I wanted. Temperament was wonderful. This was a chance meeting with a stranger in a town, she was so calm, walked around nicely, sane and sensible, everything I want in a pet. She was the dog that really did it for me.
In passing the owner told us she was going to be mated in Dec. for Easter pups. Spent a long time thinking and I know that I would really regret it if I didn't not have a pup with a mother with that sort of temperament. The owner mentioned that she was taking orders for the pups, some boy pups were already reserved.

Checked it out as much as I could, the owner is pretty local, everything she told me about non dog stuff checks out. I have no reason to doubt she is a private breeder with only 1 bitch, bitch produces one litter a year, they are cared for in a family country home. The dog I saw was in lovely condition, clearly very happy with her owner. Nothing was ringing alarm bells.

So, I am looking for any comments on how to buy a puppy in these circumstances or other comments. How early do you book a puppy, (the bitch will not be having any more litters) What happens about a deposit? how much is reasonable and is there a contract of some sort? under what circumstances is it returnable? Not going to change my mind but puppies can die etc. Should I be asking any more questions?
Any comments will be gratefully received.

Other question is do you insure dogs? I appreciate like horses some will and some won't but I would appreciate the arguments on either side. For those that insure which are the best and worst companies.
 
Make sure all the recommended health testing ( not health check) has been done for both sire & dam & check out the sire.
If anything has been missed keep looking.
 
The most important thing is to check both the bitch and the sire of the pups has had all necessary health tests. You want to see low hip and elbow scores (hips total mid teens or less, elbows 0 or 1). The sire should be tested haemophilia clear as well. There are other tests but those are the most important. How many litters has the bitch had, I would be suspicious of any breeder who has a litter every year just for the sake of it. Do they own the sire, in most cases this again would flag up suspicions to me that they are breeding just for the money.
If all the above criteria is met then it is never too early to book, I have often had puppies booked well before a bitch is in season. I never take a deposit until the puppy is born, and should heaven forbid a puppy dies then I would return the deposit.
 
I am getting a GSD puppy in February, the bitch has just been mated to fingers crossed!

This is what I did: I spoke to a large number of breeders and asked them a lot of open ended questions. I dismissed anyone who did not do all the health screening available and was not willing to show me paperwork proof for both bitch and dog (hip and elbow scoring, haemophilia, eyes, and degenerative myelopathy - having lost a dog to DM I won't compromise on that but it was very difficult to find a French breeder who tested for this), so first thing I would advise you is to check with the owner about this.

Then it's worth finding out as much as you can about both parents. Have they had litters before, what kind of pups did they have, what kids of homes did the puppies find, were any returned, were any unsuitable, etc? If you can meet the dog as well although I appreciate this is not always possible.

I would expect a decent breeder to have a standard contract with respect to reservations and deposits. I have beeen on a waiting list for a year, I have now stated my sex preference at the mating (obviously subject to what happens at the birth!), I am due half the asking price at the birth, I can visit the puppies twice during the time they are with their mum with a selection happening at 6 weeks, I can collect the puppy from 8 weeks onwards when I have to pay the rest of the asking price. Puppy will have been wormed, vet checked and have temporary insurance on collection.
 
although temperament and look of the dog is extremely important the last thing you need is an animal with either hip or elbow displaysia.(think spelling is wrong!!) apart from being very expensive to sort out the dog will be in a lot of pain and may be better pts as a puppy rather than go through all of that. this is only my opinion and others may disagree.....so the parents should have been tested for anything which is linked to the breed. this sounds like a pet owner deciding to breed a litter and you may find they are unaware of known gsd problems...there are a few gsd posters on here so hopefully they will post their expert opinions to help you decide...
 
thanks for the replies. I believe the owner is aware of GSD's and their problems. I don't think it is a case of just having puppies for the sake of it type situation. I don't believe she owns the potential sire. Obviously a litter of GSD puppies are going to be profitable but I don't believe this is a case of just breeding any old rubbish just for the sake of money. I suspect she has a market for many of the pups. As far as I am aware the bitch has had 2 previous litters and this will be the final one.

The health side is the part I don't know how to investigate. do I need evidence or just ask and take her word for it? Is there, for example, any document showing the health test results for the sire and bitch they send to potential purchasers?

Do I ask her for:-

the hip and elbow scores of both sire and bitch
confirmation that the sire has been tested haemophilia clear

what eye questions do I ask please?

are they normally tested for DM? (I'm in the UK)


is there any other health testing I should ask for?

The health side is the part I am unclear on, especially for GSD which I know have the potential to have problems.

Is it normal for puppies to be vet checked before collection?

Booboos, all that information is really helpful, thanks. Fingers crossed, you must be getting excited!
 
Exciting times! There is no better dog than a well bred GSD with a balanced, social temperament and strong nerve imo. I may be a tiny bit biased though :D

I would want to know what health tests had been performed on both dam and sire, and the results of those.

Hip scoring - the total should be even and preferably with a total of single figures.
Elbow scoring - the KC recommend that any dogs/bitches with an elbow score of more than 0 should not be bred from
Haemophilia testing for the males

These are the minimum health tests. The test for DM is being undertaken by some breeders, but there are still queries over the accuracy of the test, so you will have to make your own judgement call on that one.

Hereditary Cataract testing used to be recommended under the KC Assured Breeder Scheme, but the GSD Breed Health Coordinator for GSDL has approached the Breed Council (who are supportive) about substituting this test with that for DM, as no dogs tested under the HC scheme have ever been found to have the condition.

If you have the KC registered names of both sire and dam you can search the KC website for hip/elbow score results http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/
The breeder should also hold (and be happy to show you) all relevant paperwork regarding test results - ie hip/elbow scores, Haemophilia (for males), DM test etc.

Equally as important as health in this breed is temperament. If you can meet the bitch under differing circumstances to see how she reacts, as well as meeting any siblings, parents or previous pups - all the better. If the bitch has had previous litters, the breeder should be happy to put you in touch with owners of these pups and you can speak to them about the temperament and health of their dogs. If it is possible, you should aim to meet the sire of the puppies too.

If, after your research you are happy with all you have found, then you can put your name down for a pup as soon as you wish. My dog is being used at stud next summer and I already have people showing an interest in going on a waiting list, as has the dam's owner. Of course, things can happen between now and then - but if you are happy with the planned litter then it is worth waiting for. I would expect to pay a deposit once the pups are on the ground.

If I only had one or two dogs I would insure. Pet Plan are the best company imo. Not the cheapest but certainly one of the most comprehensive.

One last thing, the GSD Breed Health Coordinator is happy to look into any known health issues in GSD lines. She is passionate about the breed and is incredibly knowledgeable. So if you get the pedigree of both sire and dam of the litter you are interested in then I can pass on her email address/telephone number (PM me) and for a minimal fee of £5 to GSD Welfare she will look through the pedigree and let you know of any known health issues. Really well worth doing.

Good luck.
 
Re health tests....if someone tells you they haven't health tested breeding GSDs because 'they have straight backs so they won't have hip problems' or 'they're only for pet homes, not working or show', I'd avoid. The only reason people don't health test breeding German Shepherd is money, the tests don't cost more than the price of one pup, probably less. If they don't spend their money on their own dogs, neither should a puppy buyer. JMO.

I look for several generations of good results, not just the sire and dam.

Hip scores from the BVA come with two columns for each joint L/R and the totals on the end. Elbows are just two squares for each elbow and the total.
All with owner's name and address and vet's details on.
One is white and one is yellow, can't remember which is which right now. You can also enter the registered name or registration number into the KC health checker.

German scores are stamped straight onto the pedigree in a triangle. A-A3 are acceptable and anything B or more is not for breeding.
 
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WorkingGSD said:
Exciting times! There is no better dog than a well bred GSD with a balanced, social temperament and strong nerve imo. I may be a tiny bit biased though :D


One last thing, the GSD Breed Health Coordinator is happy to look into any known health issues in GSD lines. She is passionate about the breed and is incredibly knowledgeable. So if you get the pedigree of both sire and dam of the litter you are interested in then I can pass on her email address/telephone number (PM me) and for a minimal fee of £5 to GSD Welfare she will look through the pedigree and let you know of any known health issues. Really well worth doing.

Good luck.
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Not in the slightest biased. The only dog IMHO. thanks for your comprehensive reply.

Both you and Corvus Corax are saying the same thing (your final para) ie get the pedigree and look back through the generations. Hopefully I will be able to come back to you with this info. for further research.

I will start by registering my interest in a pup and then ask for the sale contract, names of parents and health details and see what response I get.

A big thank you to everyone who has replied. It has really given me a good starting point.
 
I know it probably seems overkill but it's better to be safe than sorry and avoid heartache in the long run. Nothing in life is guaranteed, but I'd rather know a breeder has invested in the health and future of the breed rather than left things to chance.
 
paddy555 said:
Not in the slightest biased. The only dog IMHO. thanks for your comprehensive reply.

Both you and Corvus Corax are saying the same thing (your final para) ie get the pedigree and look back through the generations. Hopefully I will be able to come back to you with this info. for further research.

I will start by registering my interest in a pup and then ask for the sale contract, names of parents and health details and see what response I get.

A big thank you to everyone who has replied. It has really given me a good starting point.
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I'd be very interested to have a peek at the pedigrees of sire and dam if you get them - and puppy photos are a must when you get yours home :D
 
WorkingGSD said:
I'd be very interested to have a peek at the pedigrees of sire and dam if you get them - and puppy photos are a must when you get yours home :D
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will let you know if I do. IF the health and breeder check out it will be a long coat bitch. I know long coats are not everyone's choice but there is absolutely nothing more cuddly. (and my first beloved shepherd was a long coat)
thanks again
 
paddy555 said:
will let you know if I do. IF the health and breeder check out it will be a long coat bitch. I know long coats are not everyone's choice but there is absolutely nothing more cuddly. (and my first beloved shepherd was a long coat)
thanks again
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Longcoats are certainly very beautiful to look at. All that grooming though - never again :D Look forward to hearing how your research goes.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I know it probably seems overkill but it's better to be safe than sorry and avoid heartache in the long run. Nothing in life is guaranteed, but I'd rather know a breeder has invested in the health and future of the breed rather than left things to chance.
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certainly not overkill and especially not for this breed. I just needed some help where to start and what to ask.
thanks for your help
 
Is the bitch a long coat? Both parents have to carry long coat genes to produce it so if standard coat parents there is no guarantee. If you ask the kc registered name of the parents you can check out all the health tests several generations back on the KC website. Another one here who would be interested in the pedigree.
 
MurphysMinder said:
Is the bitch a long coat? Both parents have to carry long coat genes to produce it so if standard coat parents there is no guarantee. If you ask the kc registered name of the parents you can check out all the health tests several generations back on the KC website. Another one here who would be interested in the pedigree.
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thanks for that. I will double check about both parents. AFAIK they are to be long coats. Will both parents have had a gene test carried out to establish this and if so what is it called please so I can ask this question?



If I find out the registered name of the parents can I then research their ancestry on the KC website? (a bit like ancestry for humans) or is that info not available on there?

Will be interested to see what the breeder comes back with. Either it will be the instant full info or a lot of waffling!
 
My LC was born to two shortcoat parents and the others in the litter were all short. His half sister also had one or two longcoats in a litter which was also short-short. There is no guarantee what you'll get even with a short to longcoat mating and sometimes you can't tell if they're fluffs until they're a lot older.

And they are a total pain in the rear to groom :p
 
CorvusCorax said:
And they are a total pain in the rear to groom :p
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I Know I have already invested in a good vacuum to groom the carpet! I learnt that much from experience. My first shepherd was only one of 2 LC's in the litter so I was interested to know if there was any test to ensure LC's.
 
paddy555 said:
I Know I have already invested in a good vacuum to groom the carpet! I learnt that much from experience. My first shepherd was only one of 2 LC's in the litter so I was interested to know if there was any test to ensure LC's.
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Every GSD owner should also invest in a blaster - mine is a godsend (until recently I had 3 GSDs and a rough coated border collie in the house, but lost my lovely old longcoated girl last year aged 14).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005GK3YKC/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Another invlauable, and inexpensive must have item, are aquasorb towels

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003BOCFQ4/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
thanks for that info re genes GSD. I will add it to the list to ask. Any help on getting them dry is gratefully received. We currently have a very LC, very silky haired collie who sheds everywhere. We also live a pretty rough lifestyle where the dog has access not only to muddy fields to play in but also the leat (very small narrow man made stream) That is apparently the most wonderful place in the world to lie down, followed shortly afterwards by the carpet.

I guess you are a breeder so your bitches are obviously not neutered? I would be interested to hear from anyone about neutering bitches. My last GSD wasn't done and I had to watch her like a hawk. My current collie is neutered. I read an article about the effects on neutering healthwise on bitches and last night an article I think on the KC website about the problems created by early neutering.

I definitely don't want puppies. Before reading these I was all for neutering asap. Problem solved. Now I am wondering.

Sorry for all the questions but there seems to be a lot of GSD on this thread and it is helping me get things straight.
 
I am not a breeder but think MM may be. I only have dogs now - two entire, one neutered. If I had another bitch and was not intending to breed then I would spay. After extensive research, my decision is that no future dogs will be neutered (unless there is a medical problem) but any bitches would be spayed. However, I would give them at least one season, and preferably two, so they are physically and sexually mature prior to spaying.

It is one of those decisions that only you can really decide what is best for your situation and your bitch. There are compelling arguments both for and against spaying.
 
I second the vote for a blaster, brilliant piece of kit.
I used to breed but don't any more and both my girls are spayed. If not planning on breeding I recommend you give your bitch time to fully mature, so at least 18 months old before having her done.

If you put the full kc registered name of each parent in the kc health test finder here
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/

you should see the results of any UK tests (not german a stamps etc) .
 
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I think the other responses have covered this but yes I would expect to see official paperwork on all the health tests. The Kennel club has some more information here

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=5106

My little one will be a long coat. Ideally I would prefer a short but their short coated bitch won't be mated time 2018 and we've been waiting for a year already (plus two more years before that waiting to get pregnancy and baby out of the way!). Harwen is the bitch (second one)

http://www.elevagebergerallemand-heritiersdenoyawen.fr/#Nos_chiennes.B
 
Booboos said:
I think the other responses have covered this but yes I would expect to see official paperwork on all the health tests. The Kennel club has some more information here

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=5106

My little one will be a long coat. Ideally I would prefer a short but their short coated bitch won't be mated time 2018 and we've been waiting for a year already (plus two more years before that waiting to get pregnancy and baby out of the way!). Harwen is the bitch (second one)

http://www.elevagebergerallemand-heritiersdenoyawen.fr/#Nos_chiennes.B
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Lovely site and beautiful dogs especially Harwen. I am very jealous! Of course if you don't want your LC baby she could come to me. LOL

After reading your earlier comments re DM I now realise this is very probably what my first shepherd died of (PTS) many years ago. Thanks for letting me know about this.
 
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