Puppy School

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HaffiesRock

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I was just interested in peoples thoughts about group puppy training?

Personally, I think we are doing very well with out Border Terrier puppy. He is 17 weeks old and can do all the basics, sit, stand, down, wait, stay etc an he gives a paw and high five. He is great in his crate, happy to be left alone during the day for short periods and is 95% house trained. On walks he can pull a little on the lead but sits and waits at roads etc and he has lovely recall so he is off the lead in safe areas like local parks and interacts great with other dogs and people and we socialised him from day one in our arms before he had his vaccs. I appreciate that he is about to hit his adolescent stage and this all could change but I am happy we are raising a well socialised and rounded dog.

We enrolled him in puppy classes before we collected him and we had our 3rd session last night. My OH is the trainer and I observe and if I am honest it is an uncomfortable watch sometimes. Its not the training methods, its how the trainers talk to the owners and there is sometimes conflict between the two trainers so mixed messages and techniques are shared. Additionally the environment is so full on with around 10 puppies in a small space it is just constant barking, yapping, growling and dogs pulling to get to each other. I get that the puppies should be able to do what is asked in the environment, but last night was the worst week yet! I think the trainers did too much and there was a lot of waiting around between exercises and the pups were just getting frustrated. OH and I feel its a complete waste of time and money as OH gets frustrated (as do other owners) as their pups are not like that at home. I've told him we need to suck it up and complete the course as we have paid for it, but it wouldn't surprise me if half the dogs dropped out after last night (1 already has).

Do we need to just man up and get on with it? The puppy classes we hoped would be good socialisation but its a ngihtmare and we are dreading the next 3 weeks.

So what are your opinions on group puppy classes. Good idea or not?
 
I have no direct experience of dog training sessions but do feel there are more people setting up in dog related businesses that seem to have little idea of what they are doing, the concept of two trainers with different methods taking a class together seems totally alien to me, how can they work together let alone expect their clients to benefit if they are not on the same page at all times, at least in public, it sounds as if you are doing well enough on your own, I would forget the money if you are dreading going again and maybe look elsewhere if you feel the need.
 
Group puppy classes are amazing ... IF they are run correctly. Impossible to say without seeing yours in person. I do remember our early classes could be chaotic, but we were taught how to get our puppy's attention and keep them quiet and settled. By week 4/5ish, there was no barking and all puppies had learned to settle on their mat and wait their turn. In my class there is no interaction between dogs; it's all about owner communication with the dog in the fact of distractions, other dogs, etc .... We loved the trainers and their attitude so much (my pup was the naughty one in the class, and they helped us soooo much to understand him and help him through his tantrums etc) that we stayed on for Bronze KC training. Now stuck on silver as he's not fond of being touched by strangers but we're getting there (successful vaccinations yesterday) ...

I have to say though - I never had any doubts that the class was right for us and WOULD make a positive difference in the long run. I had doubts about the dog; doubts about myself; doubts about life in general, but I knew from the very first session that was a Very Good Idea. So I guess - shop around if you're not sure!
 
We might try one more session and then see. They have the same methods but different ways of rewarding I guess. An example being down and stay. The woman said the reward was for the dog to lie down and relax while the man asked the owners to bring them back up to sit once relaxed in the down and treat/fuss before putting them down again. OH did this and the woman went spare at him saying to ignore him once down.
Last night our pup was particularly distracted so OH asked to take him outside as he felt he needed to toilet. The woman said no, he can wait 10 more minutes (its a 75 minute session in total) and pup then went on to pee and poo on the floor. He wasn't scolded but the woman gave him such a dirty look as she got the mop out and my poor pup looked liked he knew he'd done wrong even though it wasn't his fault at all.
I have run through all the exercises at home today and they were pretty faultless in a calm situation and while he does ok in the exercises at puppy class, its all the inbetween time where he and the other pups all just want to play and get frustrated and it blows all our minds!
 
Nothing I have seen or heard would ever make me want to do group training with a dog and to be honest I agree with Be Positive - as many as you can get in a hall seems to be the way of it.

At my own club in the early days we worked in a group...everyone make your dog sit....everyone make your dog down....and it doesn't work long-term. There are dogs incapable of doing anything and just eyeballing and gobbing off at others, dogs who can't put their backside on the ground, then at the other end there are dogs capable of advanced control and heelwork, it wasn't fair on any of them as all dogs learn at different speeds, the less good ones never progressed and the good ones got bored.
So the training is now tailored to the individual dog and there can be two or three on the park at once, but all working on different things, in different ways, which suit the dog and handler.
I've been to clubs on the continent where there can be 20 dogs on the field for obedience at one time, so plenty of distraction, but they are all working within their own small group of helpers or trainers on a particular issue.
Dogs need to learn how to learn and so do handlers and one group with diverse breeds and needs isn't the way, IMO. A dog that's gone over-threshold isn't going to be hungry enough for treats or a toy.

Sorry. but 75 minutes is bonkers. High level competition dogs wouldn't be doing that in one session. I've got a roasting for having my dog out for 20 minutes.
 
HaffiesRock said:
We might try one more session and then see. They have the same methods but different ways of rewarding I guess. An example being down and stay. The woman said the reward was for the dog to lie down and relax while the man asked the owners to bring them back up to sit once relaxed in the down and treat/fuss before putting them down again. OH did this and the woman went spare at him saying to ignore him once down.
Last night our pup was particularly distracted so OH asked to take him outside as he felt he needed to toilet. The woman said no, he can wait 10 more minutes (its a 75 minute session in total) and pup then went on to pee and poo on the floor. He wasn't scolded but the woman gave him such a dirty look as she got the mop out and my poor pup looked liked he knew he'd done wrong even though it wasn't his fault at all.
I have run through all the exercises at home today and they were pretty faultless in a calm situation and while he does ok in the exercises at puppy class, its all the inbetween time where he and the other pups all just want to play and get frustrated and it blows all our minds!
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That sounds confusing for humans and canines alike! I probably wouldn't go back that environment. No point in inconsistent rewarding when consistency is the exact thing we need to get good at as trainers. I like to know exactly what I am rewarding and when/how (I do use a clicker at home). Not allowing pup to go out is outageous. OK maybe he CAN hold a bit more, but does he NEED to at 17 weeks? I CAN hold if I have to, but I certainly find it distracting to sit in a meeting with a full bladder! 75 minutes is massively long for baby brain. We do 45 minutes and even as adult pup, mine is flat out for the rest of the evening. The advantage of the group classes for me is that they give me a safe, semi-controlled environment but with a small variation in predictability and chaos. My dog is naturally reactive so being able to work around other dogs has given him confidence that he won't be approached by strangers. Now, when a stranger does approach in the real world (dog or human), he knows to put himself to heel and let me deal with it.

Find a better class!

Mine is Border terrier X :)
 
Thanks everyone. Ill speak to OH and see what he wants to do. Puppy plays lovely in the park with other dogs, no barking, growling etc, just good honest doggy play. In this little hall he just barks and pulls and becomes overwhelmed (as do the other dogs) then his brain fries and nothing good comes of it.
 
Even without observing the class I'd say 10 puppies is too many, 75 minutes too long and refusing a toilet trip to a puppy giving clear signals is plain daft. :p

Good group classes are possible, one of my colleagues recently did a Dogs Trust course and it sounds as if they've got it bang on, but there are too many village hall type set ups out there that achieve nothing useful except a frustrated, distracted puppy. And veterinary 'puppy parties' are another culprit, I say that as someone who has to run the damn things (despite all the evidence against their efficacy...)
 
I only did group classes as a means of socialising my dog. If I ever got another puppy I wouldn't do it again.

OP it sounds like you're both doing an amazing job with your pup and don't need much help to continue x
 
My friends puppies are better learning from the older dogs who tell them what to do- tell them off when they push things too far and set a mostly good example for them to copy!
10 in a small space for that long as well sounds like hell!
Socialising is important but not in a manic environment. The things they ‘teach’ are all basic common sense
 
That sounds like a bad class- your two examples - reward when in the down position is how you should do it and definitley pups should go out to loo
I'd find a differnet class! Maybe one run by a positive rewards agility club I find they tend to be more sensible!One that does 'shaping' behavioursis good!
 
however you should be able to overcome him barking/pulling etc by distracting him and rewarding him when he pays attention to you or sits or lies quietly by your hair and not just letting him bark/pull.
 
i took my lurcher puppy to classes and it was well run with clear instructions and only 7 in the class. i enjoyed it and learnt different ways to train, some i took on board and others i knew wouldnt work for mine...it was good for socialising as i didnt come across many dogs in my daily life as i worked at a yard and my dog spent the day with me and we walked round the fields when i had finished....as long as your puppy is already well socialised and training is being successful i dont see the need to go to classes, especially as you are dreading it...
 
As for 'not allowing' your OH to take pup outside for a wee......... !!!

Hmmmm, having re-read your first and now second post I wouldn't go back.
 
We missed puppy classes as Aled was poorly, and Luna’s final jab was delayed just in case. We took her to obedience classes when she was 6 months old, as much for socialisation as anything. There were a maximum of 6 in the class, and they were fun as much as we were training. We got a lot out of it.
 
Hmm your puppy classes don’t sound too good, sounds like you are doing well without. My classes have been great so far, they are all held outside in a big enough space so the puppies are learning to focus in a real world situation with smells and sounds to think about. They have done a lovely job of introducing my OH to positive reinforcement training so we are both working on the same page. It’s not a free for all playing session and owners are free to take their puppies away for a break or finish early if they want to. I’m really enjoying them and learning how to keep pups attention even when lots of other ‘fun’ stuff is happening.
 
I have taken my 6mo pup to 4 classes and they have served their purpose of him meeting other dogs but I can't see the point of many more. I got a bit put off last time as I was told off for praising him in what for the trainer was mid exercise. For me it was the end of the exercise, he had done well with his limited capability in that particular area and needed praising. I also said I was leaving after 30 mins as the dog had had enough and the trainer was surprised we didn't work for longer. We couldn't,, the dog had had more than enough.

I have found the solution for socialising him. He is a country dog and I take him into our local market town and we spend 20 mins walking at heel around the market place. Plenty of other dogs for him to see and lots going on. He is very calm with other dogs and just sits and watches them. I have got far more out of training him in this real life environment and he enjoys it more.
I did get one good thing out of the training classes and that was the chance before the class to try the tunnel and weaving posts. He loved them.
 
Only did it for the socialising aspect, didn’t work with Zak! I’d rather take them round Pets at Home, the yard, the pub! We did this with my bil’s pup for 2 weeks, he’s a fab little sociable boy. Any training, I did myself and most things the puppy classes taught, they could already do because we started as soon as we got them.
 
It sounds as though you are doing a perfectly good job on your own. I think SOME puppy classes are excellent. They tend to be the ones who only allow small numbers, with more than one trainer to help individuals, and who use force free methods.
 
blackcob said:
Even without observing the class I'd say 10 puppies is too many, 75 minutes too long and refusing a toilet trip to a puppy giving clear signals is plain daft. :p

Good group classes are possible, one of my colleagues recently did a Dogs Trust course and it sounds as if they've got it bang on, but there are too many village hall type set ups out there that achieve nothing useful except a frustrated, distracted puppy. And veterinary 'puppy parties' are another culprit, I say that as someone who has to run the damn things (despite all the evidence against their efficacy...)
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Could you tell me more about the veterinary puppy parties please? I've always regretted not taking my dogs there as puppies as I thought it would have been the ideal 'playground' for them, with all the pups being small, young and with playful attitudes, probably in small groups and all being done under supervision. Does it end up in chaos in real life then?
 
Bullies bully and the weak get bullied IME.
Dogs allowed to tear arse around with others too much, can also start to see other dogs as bigger attractors than their owners. Other dogs tend to be a lot more fun than the average owner ;)
Just my opinion and I know it wasn't me you asked :p
 
That's no problem, your answer makes perfect sense and I can see that scenario playing out with all different breeds and different personalities thrown in :D
So relieved - no need to regret that I've not taken my doggies there when they were pups :)
 
I would always prefer my dogs ignored other dogs, and certainly don't want them seeing other dogs as playmates. So no puppy classes for me, but I will say ours meet a lot of dogs around and about anyway.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Bullies bully and the weak get bullied IME.
Dogs allowed to tear arse around with others too much, can also start to see other dogs as bigger attractors than their owners. Other dogs tend to be a lot more fun than the average owner ;)
Just my opinion and I know it wasn't me you asked :p
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Wot she said. :p

Owners love the off-lead free for all but the smallest, most nervous puppy will inevitably get squashed and the biggest, most confident puppy has their thuggish behaviour reinforced.

Ours now focus on flogging the monthly health plan (sorry :o) and stuff we'd love owners to get them used to for when they come into the practice in the future - everyone gets a turn up on the table, shown how to check ears, handle feet for nail clips, flick the clippers on to get them used to the noise etc. They get sent home with leaflets for training clubs which are far better set up for the actual sit/stay/come stuff.
 
Ive really mixed feelings about the classes I took Stanley to. I wanted him to meet other dogs and tbh unless I make the effort he wouldn't meet many dogs on walks, also my closest neighbours have very poorly socialised dogs who are yappy and timid. The classes I went to were too busy and Stan was over excited but we did the exercises at home and he was a quick learner. I'm not sure the classes were a great help but he learned something about socialising with other dogs and has gone from seeing every dog as a friend to reading their language, hanging back a bit and making good choices which keep him safe. I think I got what I wanted from the classes.
 
Socialisation (ignoring things ;)) is important but by and large a dog's reaction to others will be genetic and you won't see the final picture until it reaches maturity.

Other factors can be how the dog is kept at home. Some dogs kept in packs at home/allowed to run with others and taken out singly, away from their mates, can feel very insecure and reactive.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Socialisation (ignoring things ;)) is important but by and large a dog's reaction to others will be genetic and you won't see the final picture until it reaches maturity.

Other factors can be how the dog is kept at home. Some dogs kept in packs at home/allowed to run with others and taken out singly, away from their mates, can feel very insecure and reactive.
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That is interesting, and true. We try to give all of ours one on one time as you definately see too much reliance on an adult if they never have to face anything alone.
 
In all honesty I have yet to meet anyone who hasnt been disappointed with puppy classes, most people do it mainly for the socialisation but as already stated if that's not done properly it can cause much bigger long term problems. I personally would always recommend working one on one with a good trainer if you feel you need help then join one of the multitudes of local dog walking groups to arrange getting your dog socialised as that way you can explain to the owners what you want to get out of the walk etc.
 
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