Purchasing and Conformation

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Thornsett1

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We have decided to look for a new member of our gang primarily to be a dressage diva but also to be a nice all round horse . We have a healthy budget as would really prefer something that is up and going even if it is green.
AM I right to want a horse with good feet and limbs that moves straight ? is it really that difficult to find and should I feel guilty when asked by the owner why I am not buying said horse ( generally try an avoid any outward criticism ) We have looked at plenty and plenty with a £££ price tag but I have yet to see one that isn't pigeon toed, waving its legs at me , offset knees etc does it not matter anymore is a fancy trot more important ? please tell me I am right to be fussy about these things I am starting to wonder if it is me .
 
You are right to want basically correct conformation, I would be less bothered by a few problems in a horse that is proven than a youngster that has not yet done any real work, a fancy trot will be of no use if the horse is unsound before it is 6, I would rather see a good correct walk and canter than flashy trot anyway, stick to your guns the right horse will be out there, it may be worth looking at something bred for eventing rather than dressage as correct confo is possibly more of a consideration for those breeders.
 
And that's before you get as far as a vetting, which are proving hard for many with typical dressage breeding to pass. I recently spoke to a dressage coach who had five Dutch horses vetted for a client, she was acting as agent - all five failed.

It's such a fashion thing isn't it, amateurs rushing to the Netherlands to get their blue blood dressage horse. We have some wonderful candidates here in Ireland thanks to crossing Dutch stallions with good Irish sport horses mares. And these horses are much sounder long term. But would they buy a dressage prospect from Ireland - I very much doubt it as it's just not fashionable. It's a pity so many are often led by fads...

I'd say it's similar with the horses you're looking at, if they have the big dressage pedigree who cares if they are correct or can actually move well! I see dressage horses advertised on H & H for instance with very little expression in their movement - but hey ho they have the pedigree and someone will be silly enough to buy them for that alone.
 
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I agree IG, the big expressive trot is always the main selling picture/video on dressage bred youngsters from 2-5 yo. It's because it makes it much easier for people imagine them competing at the top level. Unfortunately, a lot of the horses that trot like that at 2 do have some....um...interesting conformation points.

I also think it's a little to do with how competitive lower level dressage has become in recent years. I think people have become less interested in the journey to the higher levels in general, and want a horse that is easy to get winning from the lower levels. At prelim and novice level a naturally easy uphill trot (rather than trained that way), is really helpful.

OP, don't think you're being fussy at all, but you might have to think outside the box in terms of breeding and history.
 
You're so right DabDab. And of course most of the amateurs only want to win at a low level and they wouldn't be skilled enough to go on to the higher levels. It's a hobby and that's perfectly fine. But they still want a horse that looks like he's a high level competitor!

As an agent I see this all the time with the eventers. People who only want to do the BE 90 but on a horse that looks like something Oliver Townend would ride. So a real high % of TB but it has to be dead quiet. It's hard to get those blood horses that are as quiet as lambs because their breeding often precludes being that mellow! For the level of competition they're aiming at a nice half bred would be fine, in fact a quality draught could do it well. But the rider wants to look the part up on the lightweight blood horse, that unless he's a saint they may not be able to successfully ride or even control.

If only there was a TB stallion that passes on being placid😊
 
Irish gal said:
If only there was a TB stallion that passes on being placid��
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There are a few but they would be outwith an eventers budget and most don't take anything other than top flight race winning mares lol!

The conformation of racing tb's has gone seriously down hill in recent years. People are breeding for speed or stamina at what ever the cost. It's probably a good job that most flat horses retire to stud at the end of their 3 or 4yo year before their conformation starts making them lame! Long pasterns seem to be the in-thing at the moment and I couldn't think of anything worse! The more you have of something the greater the chance of damaging it!

If you want a tb go for French AQPS lines. They aren't 100% tb but they are enough tb to race. The bit that isn't tb is usually Selle Francais which takes the edge off of them. I love French horses! Some of the easiest to deal with!
 
There is a very smart event bred mare on NFED just now, selling for dressage and SJ, competing BD and BS but won't jump XC, any use?
 
I've walked away from horses without good straight movement - not even sitting on them. This is despite asking the seller prior to viewing if the horse moves straight.

As for conformation. Yes it is important, but we can all forgive a few issues (after all nothing's perfect).
 
To be honest I would much rather buy a part bred, bloodlines have their place but at the end of the day you can only judge what you see in front of you . I am not interested in whether we look the part I want a horse that at least has a good chance of staying sound and that should start with conformation no horse is perfect and I think you have to decide what you can live with but you need to start off with the best you can . I agree people are blinded by the flashy and do not think whether or not that horse can be successfully ridden , trained and managed by them . I would like to make a small observation here about the lower levels in dressage that certain judges are also blinded by the flash I watched a competition the other day only to watch a very nice warmblood do a not very nice test only to be followed by a coloured horse who did a lovely test and guess what !!!! well I will tell you equal marks because the judge thought that the WB had lots to offer in the future . That is why some think they need a big flashy WB to win which is a shame because it should not be about that certainly at lower levels .
 
That's the worst of it Thornsett - when the judges are biased in favour of the typical warmblood dressage type. Any part of horse sport that has to be judged is unfortunately open to that.

I am heartened to hear though about new competitions in the U.K. For instance for draughts doing dressage. Of course though most of the riders would rather be in the traditional type event.

Hopefully not all judges are so biased. We sold a cracking blood Connie who is 15.3hh and he's been winning BD, so it can be done. His owner would not touch a warmblood due to concerns for future soundness, so perhaps people are starting to look to other breeds. But fashion being what it is the majority will tend to follow the pack.
 
Haha Irish gal can you find me one have been looking for a connie cross for ages as the owner of connemaras
I know their versatility .
 
Thornsett1 said:
We have decided to look for a new member of our gang primarily to be a dressage diva but also to be a nice all round horse . We have a healthy budget as would really prefer something that is up and going even if it is green.
AM I right to want a horse with good feet and limbs that moves straight ? is it really that difficult to find and should I feel guilty when asked by the owner why I am not buying said horse ( generally try an avoid any outward criticism ) We have looked at plenty and plenty with a £££ price tag but I have yet to see one that isn't pigeon toed, waving its legs at me , offset knees etc does it not matter anymore is a fancy trot more important ? please tell me I am right to be fussy about these things I am starting to wonder if it is me .
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Don't hold your breath and of course you are right.

For me the walk is the most important pace, if they can't walk you are stuffed as very little improvement can be made to a poor walk and so many people fiddle with the walk making things even worse. The trot is the most easily improved pace.

I came to the conclusion years ago that many vendors have no concept of what reasonably correct conformation actually is and even less idea of how conformation affects way of going. Keep looking the right one is out there somewhere.
 
Thornsett1 said:
Haha Irish gal can you find me one have been looking for a connie cross for ages as the owner of connemaras
I know their versatility .
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Yes they are fabulous, I try to encourage the breeders here at home to go for the classic Connie x TB - it takes some beating. A sports type like that can turn their hoof to anything - eventing, dressage, jumping and will give you a great days hunting too. And they won't be breaking down at six, maybe 26 which is more like it!

Rather than answer your question I'll have to plead the fifth I'm afraid in case I set off any button pushers that are waiting to pounce!! 😜
 
Having bred dressage horses for many years I can perhaps offer a little insight. There is a vast difference between "good" movement for showing and "good" movement for dressage and that can leave a lot of the more traditionally minded in this part of the world a tad confused. A horse can move perfectly straight (i.e. the hoof and limb articulate in a straight flight) and still not be an athletic or expressive mover. Many show horses, and particularly show ponies, do not use their backs, hocks or forelegs with any great activity and would not therefore be considered as suitable for dressage, even if they do "flick" and point the toe. And horses can move very athletically, with great expression, brio, and hock and knee flexion, and not be entirely straight and yet be fantastic dressage horses winning all over the place. This seems to annoy the "straight is good" proponents, as does the fact that they remain sound when the text books say they should be lame :-)

Now, I will agree that you do not need to have all this going on for lower level dressage, but it is not just fashion that places the flashy WB over the stolid, obedient cob. It is the activity of the whole horse, not just the legs, and the suppleness and ease of the movements, not just the "doing-the-right-thing-at-the-right-marker" that turns it into dressage.

The most important paces to look for are the walk and the canter; the trot will improve with correct training. At the lower levels there is far more emphasis on the trot, and almost the first thing thrown into the mix are lengthenings, which leads to the search for flashy trots and hankerings after WB's. By all means look at Irish horses, but there has been no emphasis or knowledge of breeding for dressage over here and it's not something we are particularly good at :-)
 
I agree, the whole way of going is different. But I wonder if this is a fad that will die out. Did we used to have so much hind limb/sacroileac/back lameness before this extreme moving fashion with legs going like steam trains? Some of our ponies have wonderful true extravagant movement,not just daisy cutting, but I've seen some scary "extravagant but all over the place" dressage horse action,and I wouldn't want to go there,personally.
 
ozpoz said:
I agree, the whole way of going is different. But I wonder if this is a fad that will die out. Did we used to have so much hind limb/sacroileac/back lameness before this extreme moving fashion with legs going like steam trains? Some of our ponies have wonderful true extravagant movement,not just daisy cutting, but I've seen some scary "extravagant but all over the place" dressage horse action,and I wouldn't want to go there,personally.
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Well, that's kind of the point of my post: "legs going like steam trains" would not fulfil the criteria for a horse moving his whole body and using his back. Dressage is a specialised sport, as is racing, show jumping, etc. and each requires horses to move in a specialised way. The modern dressage horse has been specifically bred to do his job, as have the others for theirs. Horses have always gone lame, I don't think there's necessarily more of it about, perhaps just better diagnostics and awareness nowadays? Considering that the average competing Grand Prix dressage horse is 14 years old, they would need to be tough and sound to get there.

And no, I don't think the way of going for dressage will "die out", why would it? A supple, powerful, engaged mover is what is needed to perform the movements properly.
 
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Don't think you are being unreasonable at all! That said, straightest moving horse that I had with the best conformation (not perfect but pretty good for the type) had the most soundness issues. Previous to that, my gelding had pigeon toes and didn't move straight but never had a lame day (apart from a kick in the field once) and he's still going strong in his late teens now.

But yes ideally straight and well put together is a fair objective!

Interesting comments Cortez about movement of modern dressage horses. And the steam train front legs, with trailing back legs, really bugs me. See that lots at the higher levels still in my view.
 
Bernster said:
Don't think you are being unreasonable at all! That said, straightest moving horse that I had with the best conformation (not perfect but pretty good for the type) had the most soundness issues. Previous to that, my gelding had pigeon toes and didn't move straight but never had a lame day (apart from a kick in the field once) and he's still going strong in his late teens now.

But yes ideally straight and well put together is a fair objective!

Interesting comments Cortez about movement of modern dressage horses. And the steam train front legs, with trailing back legs, really bugs me. See that lots at the higher levels still in my view.
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Conformation is a guideline, not a prescription and many "perfect" horses go lame, just as many oddly-shaped ones stay sound.

The "trailing hind legs" syndrome is more a rider and training fault than a movement one, unfortunately.
 
Cortez said:
Considering that the average competing Grand Prix dressage horse is 14 years old, they would need to be tough and sound to get there.
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Doesn't that depend on what percentage of the ones that started out the 14 year olds competing are? And how long after 14 they carry on? Like nil years for Valegro, for example and nil years properly sound for Totilas?
 
I like a horse with correct straight movement .I want a horse that can walk and canter , you often have to try to look past training issues and try to see what's natural for the horse even if things are somewhat spoilt the trot as AA says is easiest to develop .
For me the paces need to be suitable for the horses job .
While a horse with flashy extravagant movement might enjoy hunting they are not perhaps the best choice it's perhaps best to pick a straight moving less extragant horse who takes less out of his joints .
I think it's a same the classic Irish sport horse types are harder to find while I love warmbloods it's difficult to beat the classic TB with a dash of this and or that that the Irish bred so well .
I see now they market them as being of tradional sport horse breeding and the nicest ones sell like hot cakes .
 
ycbm said:
Doesn't that depend on what percentage of the ones that started out the 14 year olds competing are? And how long after 14 they carry on? Like nil years for Valegro, for example and nil years properly sound for Totilas?
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Not really; the majority of competing GP horses are 14 years old, only the sound ones will have stayed the course to get there, as in other horse sports. There are many horses which have competed older than this, but most older GP horses go on to be schoolmasters. I've ridden a 27 year old that was well capable of all the movements, and many others in their late teens or twenties, but they would not have been capable (nor would it have been fair to ask) of the suppleness and elasticity required to win in competition. Why should they have to continue forever? I'm sure most successful dressage horses' riders are grateful for the service they've given and would wish for a happy retirement for them. Are you insinuating that Valegro was retired because he was lame? Totilas is not currently lame, BTW, I saw him a few months ago :-)
 
It would matter to me if 999 horses were broken on the way to 1 getting to compete grand prix at 14.

And also if they stop at the young age of 14 because they are unsound. Totilas certainly was unsound and the year before he retired Valegro was struggling with his tempis, suggesting that his retirement may have been a necessity and not just because he had reached the pinnacle of his career.
 
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ycbm said:
It would matter to me if 999 horses were broken on the way to 1 getting to compete grand prix at 14.
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Gosh, the racing industry must really do your head in then...

Very few horses have what it takes to compete at GP dressage, show jumping, etc., etc., even before you factor in soundness. That's kind of why it is a big deal when horses get to that level, even more so if they win. To drag this discussion back to what the OP intended, if you want to buy a horse for dressage at the top level you will be looking at a different set of criteria than if you are content to stay in the lower levels or compete at other disciplines. What is considered "good" movement for showing is not necessarily so for dressage.
 
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ycbm said:
It does, that's no secret. Do you not care how many horses are broken to get one sound horse to the top?
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Why are you now implying that I am recklessly advocating training unsound horses? I wasn't aware that I sounded particularly mad. I used to breed horses for dressage, quite successfully. Unsound horses do not make a breeder successful.
 
Goldenstar said:
I like a horse with correct straight movement .I want a horse that can walk and canter , you often have to try to look past training issues and try to see what's natural for the horse even if things are somewhat spoilt the trot as AA says is easiest to develop .
For me the paces need to be suitable for the horses job .
While a horse with flashy extravagant movement might enjoy hunting they are not perhaps the best choice it's perhaps best to pick a straight moving less extragant horse who takes less out of his joints .
I think it's a same the classic Irish sport horse types are harder to find while I love warmbloods it's difficult to beat the classic TB with a dash of this and or that that the Irish bred so well .
I see now they market them as being of tradional sport horse breeding and the nicest ones sell like hot cakes .
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You're so right there Goldenstar, there's a real shortage of those good traditional horses. All of the better producers are hoping to get high level competition horses and the warmblood has given a shot of quality to the Irish horse. Improved movement and jump for instance. And it's a fact that foal prices for the continental mixes are higher, well higher actually so all the breeders have jumped on the bandwagon.

Most of the ones that won't make it to a good level in competition are sold to the amateur market and I must say they are lovely horses. They make nice eventers and all rounders but there is a demand for the good traditional horse. I had this conversation with a producer the other night, I was looking for a traditional youngster for a buyer and he has forty but all with a shot of warmblood. He couldn't believe his horses were being rejected because they were by the likes of Harlequin and out of good ISH dams.

But the traditional horse is loved around the world exactly because it is the Irish horse. I said it would be like someone coming to Ireland to buy a nice Irish dog like a red setter and finding out we had crossed them all with cocker spaniels and had none of the originals left!

Thankfully there are people who realise that we must keep the trad horse going. I have a friend with a stud who just does them and she definitely will have a market for them going forward.
 
Cortez said:
Why are you now implying that I am recklessly advocating training unsound horses? I wasn't aware that I sounded particularly mad. I used to breed horses for dressage, quite successfully. Unsound horses do not make a breeder successful.
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I don't know what you are reading, but it's not anything that I wrote!
 
ycbm said:
It would matter to me if 999 horses were broken on the way to 1 getting to compete grand prix at 14.
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How do the stats compare to leisure horses that do a reasonable level of work? Everyone I know seems to have a broken horse. You have 2, both of which have limiting conditions and 1 thats really unwell with it and thats without dressage training.

It seems to me that horses break a lot no matter what discipline they do sadly.
 
Leo Walker said:
How do the stats compare to leisure horses that do a reasonable level of work? Everyone I know seems to have a broken horse. You have 2, both of which have limiting conditions and 1 thats really unwell with it and thats without dressage training.

It seems to me that horses break a lot no matter what discipline they do sadly.
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I don't really see that congenital diseases that both my ridden horses were born with compare with wearing horses out by training them to do things that produce an early retirement or early death? Those are additional to all the other things horses find to die of, not instead of.


PS my horse has recovered, you haven't spotted my update. He was short of vitamin E, a common problem with PSSM.
 
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