Purchasing and Conformation

[Irish gal]

How do the stats compare to leisure horses that do a reasonable level of work? Everyone I know seems to have a broken horse. You have 2, both of which have limiting conditions and 1 thats really unwell with it and thats without dressage training.

It seems to me that horses break a lot no matter what discipline they do sadly.

Well I don't have stats but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for the Dutch bred dressage horses being prone to unsoundness. For instance a good proportion of clients that contact me tell me that they or their friends have horses that developed problems. In fact it's one of the reasons they give for wanting an ISH. And I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes a trend, from what I hear I think it's already a trend.

And while today's ISHs are frequently warmblood crosses those are protected from the same problems by the hybrid vigour bestowed by crossing with another breed. That's my own take on it for what it's worth.

 

[ycbm]

Well I don't have stats but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence for the Dutch bred dressage horses being prone to unsoundness. For instance a good proportion of clients that contact me tell me that they or their friends have horses that developed problems. In fact it's one of the reasons they give for wanting an ISH. And I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes a trend, from what I hear I think it's already a trend.

And while today's ISHs are frequently warmblood crosses those are protected from the same problems by the hybrid vigour bestowed by crossing with another breed. That's my own take on it for what it's worth.

I agree IG. I've got two Irish horses now who, PSSM apart, are as tough as old boots. My previous three were continental warmbloods by Grand Prix stallions out of high class mares. One with kissing spines and some kind of neurological issue that resulted in fits, one with congenital C3/C4 wobblers and one who would not jump and did a rotation fall over a two foot show jump which convinced me to sell him.

My previous Irish horses have all been tough all rounders as well. I'd buy Irish any time, as long as it's not one as over bred as a continental warmblood.

 

[Irish gal]

Well Ybcm you're not alone. Some people are so sickened with their experience of the warmblood that they absolutely insist with me on only viewing horses with not a drop of that blood. Just the traditional Irish horse and that horse is actually getting rare.

I've spent days driving around with buyers listening to what's going on in the U.K. With the warmblood, particularly for dressage. They seem to be prone to serious problems in the feet and legs, with some past their working life at seven - that's just ridiculous.

They blame inbreeding or line breeding depending on how you like to view it. That wouldn't surprise me because I had the same problem with a smashing TB I had. He suffered a stress fracture to a back leg during normal work. The vet who treated him told me they see it a lot in TBs. his theory was that there's a tiny air bubble in the bone, on the inside of the hock - it's always in the same place. And under the right conditions the leg gives way. He had Northern Dancer a number of times in the pedigree and was only seven. Desperate waste of a horse and put me off TBs and the racing industry tbh. As he said himself "they're beautiful but they shatter like glass".

 

[PolarSkye]

It would matter to me if 999 horses were broken on the way to 1 getting to compete grand prix at 14.

And also if they stop at the young age of 14 because they are unsound. Totilas certainly was unsound and the year before he retired Valegro was struggling with his tempis, suggesting that his retirement may have been a necessity and not just because he had reached the pinnacle of his career.

Apologies, not read to the end of the thread, but having (just last month or so) been to Carl's yard and watched Charlotte and Valegro doing one time changes round the outside of the school - the WHOLE way round the outside - I'd say that was bull's testicles. Nothing unsound about that horse.

P

 

[tallyho!]

What you need OP is a good quality PRE or PSL. Sod all the rubbish wb's and mongrels from them Irish folk

 

[ycbm]

Apologies, not read to the end of the thread, but having (just last month or so) been to Carl's yard and watched Charlotte and Valegro doing one time changes round the outside of the school - the WHOLE way round the outside - I'd say that was bull's testicles. Nothing unsound about that horse.

P

That's good to hear, but of course away from competition he could now be getting a bit of medical help.

 

[DabDab]

What you need OP is a good quality PRE or PSL. Sod all the rubbish wb's and mongrels from them Irish folk

Teehee, PREs are the ultimate multi purpose horse for me - they'll gallop, jump and hack for hours, and do a decent level of dressage, all while giving a lovely comfortable ride. And as long as you spend time strengthening their SI area they are very sound. Unfortunately their temperaments are quite different to what we're used to in the U.K., so people can struggle to get on with them.

 

[Thornsett1]

Well what an interesting thread this has turned out to be . I still think for the average amateur owner conformation should be high up on the agenda ( most of us don't have the support network to keep a less well conformed horse with bags of talent on the road ) and having been involved with natives for many years any animal with a restricted gene pool will eventually show up some undesirable traits / weaknesses no matter how we try to avoid them . So yes a little bit of something else can be useful . I was taught to stand back and look at the overall picture does the horse look balanced. The other thing I have learned and has usually proved to be right even when I have chosen to ignore it !!!! that my initial instincts are correct be that good or bad . There will be horses out there that defy the odds and stay sound and those that should but don't but maybe that is down to us as riders and owners but I still think you need to give yourself the best chance particularly if you are going to ask the horse to work hard .

 

[tallyho!]

Teehee, PREs are the ultimate multi purpose horse for me - they'll gallop, jump and hack for hours, and do a decent level of dressage, all while giving a lovely comfortable ride. And as long as you spend time strengthening their SI area they are very sound. Unfortunately their temperaments are quite different to what we're used to in the U.K., so people can struggle to get on with them.

Interesting you point out the SI area for all Iberians... what is your hypothesis and how have you come to this conclusion? Is it in any way related to this reputation of being hard to handle?

 

[DabDab]

Interesting you point out the SI area for all Iberians... what is your hypothesis and how have you come to this conclusion? Is it in any way related to this reputation of being hard to handle?

Hmm, not really sure, it's only from experience with them. I've bought quite a few to reschool and they'd all had some SI weakness or pain. Obviously none of them had been produced very well (otherwise I wouldn't have been able to buy them), but it seemed like that part of their physiology was particularly vulnerable to poor schooling/inadequate strengthening.

 

[Cortez]

Hmm, not really sure, it's only from experience with them. I've bought quite a few to reschool and they'd all had some SI weakness or pain. Obviously none of them had been produced very well (otherwise I wouldn't have been able to buy them), but it seemed like that part of their physiology was particularly vulnerable to poor schooling/inadequate strengthening.

I would concur with this, but that also applies to most horses which have been poorly ridden. Spanish horses do tend to not use their backs unless ridden with some, err, skill and not pulled about in front.

 

[tallyho!]

Hmm, not really sure, it's only from experience with them. I've bought quite a few to reschool and they'd all had some SI weakness or pain. Obviously none of them had been produced very well (otherwise I wouldn't have been able to buy them), but it seemed like that part of their physiology was particularly vulnerable to poor schooling/inadequate strengthening.

Yes they demand a premium for sure, unspoilt. It's very interesting your experience looks to be involved in rehabilitating those that have had poor starts. It does appear to be very common and no doubt contributes to their poor reputation. What seems to be the predominant fault?

I would concur with this, but that also applies to most horses which have been poorly ridden. Spanish horses do tend to not use their backs unless ridden with some, err, skill and not pulled about in front.

Even more thought provoking... I've not personally encountered this tendency in the spanish horse or lusitanos that I've ridden or trained but equally I have seen those that prefer to dictate how they are to be ridden.... since I've spotted that, my eye has been drawn to this in all breeds and I have noticed that horses and ponies like their riders in a certain way! If you start to notice, let me know.

 

[sywell]

You're so right DabDab. And of course most of the amateurs only want to win at a low level and they wouldn't be skilled enough to go on to the higher levels. It's a hobby and that's perfectly fine. But they still want a horse that looks like he's a high level competitor!

As an agent I see this all the time with the eventers. People who only want to do the BE 90 but on a horse that looks like something Oliver Townend would ride. So a real high % of TB but it has to be dead quiet. It's hard to get those blood horses that are as quiet as lambs because their breeding often precludes being that mellow! For the level of competition they're aiming at a nice half bred would be fine, in fact a quality draught could do it well. But the rider wants to look the part up on the lightweight blood horse, that unless he's a saint they may not be able to successfully ride or even control.

If only there was a TB stallion that passes on being placid😊

TB is bred for racing and it is the second generation cross where the benifits show up. what about the walk? look at Lauries Crusador XX cross with a Weltmeyer dam. Why would the Dutch or Germans sell you the best youngsters exporters do not sell the best they go to the auction. You are right about the riders, I had a man who said he was looking for an eventer who could not ride well at all and said he did not think the horse was up to the job,he should have seen it winning CCI* events.