Purposely "ugly" dressage test

[humblepie]

My warm up would be 15 mins of walk as a loosening up for the body. Then 5-10 mins of gallop - I would ask to go first! I would be saying ready, steady go in a corner and then off you go as fast and you can down the long side and then go in the ring and ride with the same mind set. I wouldn't be thinking about anything else and that's how I would sacrifice the test. If the trot dropped off the leg then I wouldn't be asking for gallop. If the walk dropped off I would be asking for trot. I would just play a mind game rather than being purposely getting after the horse. I would also be pretty jolly about it and praise when forwards.

That’s the sort of approach I was suggesting. I think a gallop in the warmup might upset a few other competitors from my experience of dressage particularly if it’s in intro and there’s a lot of very young horses but could definitely get a good off the leg canter. I think the asking to go first is a good idea as there is less likely to be many people in the warmup when trying to get your forward.

 

[little_critter]

That’s the sort of approach I was suggesting. I think a gallop in the warmup might upset a few other competitors from my experience of dressage particularly if it’s in intro and there’s a lot of very young horses but could definitely get a good off the leg canter. I think the asking to go first is a good idea as there is less likely to be many people in the warmup when trying to get your forward.

Or might it be better to go last? I’m assuming the following class would be a prelim, so anyone joining you in the warm up for the next class should be up to cantering. While the 2nd to last intro competitor was doing their test you have 5 minutes available to get some forward canters in.

 

[eahotson]

My youngest cob is dropping behind my leg as we go down the centre line. Its been building up for a while but last weekend I think he would have literally ground to a halt if I hadn't had my schooling whip. He got a smack into canter it was that bad. Hadn't spent too long warming up and is fit so this is 100% a training issue.

My OH said he looked like a sulky teenager who was told he needed to go to his maths class instead of doing fun stuff. For the record he does plenty of fun stuff and we've got all the forward in a clinic with buddies (no sign of any physical issues)

On Tuesday I am staying local and doing both intro and prelim Quest. Presume whips are OK for Quest? Its Intro C which i know well - but am I going to get a telling off if I decide I don't care about anything but Going Forward no matter what - pony club kicks etc. I have a feeling I should have nipped this in the bud a couple of months ago but thought he was sluggish with the heat. Its not the heat...

Just one small question. What would you say to Charlotte if she did this?

 

[tristars]

The place to train the horse forwards is when it's broken in, the most fundamental thing is that the horse goes forwards, miss that moment is not good

I have horses that that literally charge around the farm they are so forwards in their early ridden work but I wait I don't hang on or try to slow them down, if they are naturally forwards it's a great gift to be cultivated into when the schooling starts

I had dressage judges say whoa slow the whole thing down, but that's destructive, it might get better marks and look prettier but it's the long term result, not making the horse stuffy and stotty, but diverting the energy into longterm results

 

[eahotson]

The place to train the horse forwards is when it's broken in, the most fundamental thing is that the horse goes forwards, miss that moment is not good

I have horses that that literally charge around the farm they are so forwards in their early ridden work but I wait I don't hang on or try to slow them down, if they are naturally forwards it's a great gift to be cultivated into when the schooling starts

I had dressage judges say whoa slow the whole thing down, but that's destructive, it might get better marks and look prettier but it's the long term result, not making the horse stuffy and stotty, but diverting the energy into longterm results

What you call stuffy horses are much prized often by those of a more limited nerve.They can be got off the leg though.It is dis splined work.You have to ask with the leg politely, follow up quickly where necessary with a quick flick of the whip followed by tap of the spur.Once moving forward leg off until you want a change.You need patience but I promise you it can be done and it is very satisfying once it is done.

 

[tristars]

If they stop going forwards in a test, leave off the dressage and going hacking where you you can do a sharp canter dont hold the head in a frame let the horse go forwards and allow him place his head where he wants, high or low, when he is unconstrained he will start to use the rear end and build up muscle, will form the habit of forwardness, canter to trot and back to canter, if its fumble it doesn't matter it will improve, you need to install the right button

 

[Goldenstar]

Horse that back off in the area are not unusual.
The interesting bit is teasing out why .
Some horses learn fast that calmness is all and adjust accordingly this an inadvertently trained in by riders .
Others learn that the area is not a place for fun and once they have it in their heads it’s hard to turn it round .
Some horses are not forward in their thinking and certainly learn that they are not going to get a rocket in the area .
I can think of lots of other reasons as well .
I don’t know what type of horse you have but I can make a guess .
I think unless the horse is afraid of the arena you can’t solve the issue by riding a few tests in a different way .
However riding tests with no hand break on is a must even if it causes disruptions in the outline you have to take that on the chin that’s different from being ugly .
It’s riding the horse to show it that forwardness is more important that outline something people often forget in the heat of the moment in a test .
If he not forward enough then you have to ride him all the time to encourage that .
And that’s not about the old leg leg and whip if they don’t answer thing .
It’s about teaching the horse that it goes forward on its own and this the bottom building block of my Training pyramid I need my horses to walk forward round the rides we do the most with out me ever using my leg to say go unless we have stopped .
I use loose reins and two whips at first until they suss it out and I keep my leg off them.
I go back to this training over and over throughout the whole time I have a horse of course it changes las they train on but I reinforce that you go and keep going yourself regularly out hacking .
If I was helping you that’s what I would check first because if it’s that he goes better in training because he learnt you get ugly in training but you dont in the arena that’s a training problem not an arena problem .

 

[tristars]

What you call stuffy horses are much prized often by those of a more limited nerve.They can be got off the leg though.It is dis splined work.You have to ask with the leg politely, follow up quickly where necessary with a quick flick of the whip followed by tap of the spur.Once moving forward leg off until you want a change.You need patience but I promise you it can be done and it is very satisfying once it is done.

By stuffy and stotty, I mean horses that wanted to go forwards but have been held back or pulled into a premature outline which has spoiled their paces somewhat

Which is different to horses who have naturally less pace or big movement yet still go forwards enough to progress and are simpler to ride cos they don't surge forwards so are easier for some people

I never ride with spurs so can't comment there, I use the leg alone till they get it

 

[eahotson]

If they stop going forwards in a test, leave off the dressage and going hacking where you you can do a sharp canter dont hold the head in a frame let the horse go forwards and allow him place his head where he wants, high or low, when he is unconstrained he will start to use the rear end and build up muscle, will form the habit of forwardness, canter to trot and back to canter, if its fumble it doesn't matter it will improve, you need to install the right button

I a. Into that

Horse that back off in the area are not unusual.
The interesting bit is teasing out why .
Some horses learn fast that calmness is all and adjust accordingly this an inadvertently trained in by riders .
Others learn that the area is not a place for fun and once they have it in their heads it’s hard to turn it round .
Some horses are not forward in their thinking and certainly learn that they are not going to get a rocket in the area .
I can think of lots of other reasons as well .
I don’t know what type of horse you have but I can make a guess .
I think unless the horse is afraid of the arena you can’t solve the issue by riding a few tests in a different way .
However riding tests with no hand break on is a must even if it causes disruptions in the outline you have to take that on the chin that’s different from being ugly .
It’s riding the horse to show it that forwardness is more important that outline something people often forget in the heat of the moment in a test .
If he not forward enough then you have to ride him all the time to encourage that .
And that’s not about the old leg leg and whip if they don’t answer thing .
It’s about teaching the horse that it goes forward on its own and this the bottom building block of my Training pyramid I need my horses to walk forward round the rides we do the most with out me ever using my leg to say go unless we have stopped .
I use loose reins and two whips at first until they suss it out and I keep my leg off them.
I go back to this training over and over throughout the whole time I have a horse of course it changes las they train on but I reinforce that you go and keep going yourself regularly out hacking .
If I was helping you that’s what I would check first because if it’s that he goes better in training because he learnt you get ugly in training but you dont in the arena that’s a training problem not an arena problem .

There is much in what you say.There is also more than one way to skin a cat .I found,under the guidance of my excellent trainer that the heel,tap,spur worked very well.My horse at that time though was an older one that had been ridden very badly.I do think it is important not to confuse rushing with genuine forwardness though .It should be forward from the leg.

 

[eahotson]

By stuffy and stotty, I mean horses that wanted to go forwards but have been held back or pulled into a premature outline which has spoiled their paces somewhat

Which is different to horses who have naturally less pace or big movement yet still go forwards enough to progress and are simpler to ride cos they don't surge forwards

Thank you for that clarification and I agree 100 per cent

 

[humblepie]

Or might it be better to go last? I’m assuming the following class would be a prelim, so anyone joining you in the warm up for the next class should be up to cantering. While the 2nd to last intro competitor was doing their test you have 5 minutes available to get some forward canters in.

Good point

 

[millitiger]

I guess there are degrees of 'ugly'

If you want to sacrifice the outline and have a few more abrupt, upwards transitions, I think that's fine.

Pony club kicking and chasing a sour horse through a whole test is less appealing to spectators and to the horse.
Also could be counter productive if he drops off the leg because he isn't brimming with confidence - lots of horses shut down a little when nervous rather than outwardly showing it.

My older horse can be a bit dry in tests sometimes- I have found a short, sharp, warm up works best. Definitely canter around the boards rather than trot while waiting for the bell. I try to think of my first centre line as a medium trot and the same out of the first half.
Also he is much perkier if the rest of his work is fun- so going galloping, on fun rides, hound exercise etc.

 

[SEL]

I thought I'd follow up as we went out today.

I still think some people took my OP as almost asking permission to thrash my horse round. I wouldn't do that and quite frankly if I tried he would deck me.

Massively short on entries today so I decided from the outset that I would treat it as a training exercise. I was the only person in the Intro class so had a good jolly canter around the warm up but the judge literally rang the bell as I entered the main arena so we got a jolly trot which wasn't quite the plan. It was "OK". I have ridden this test so, so many times but had a brain fade in the walk move and whilst it wasn't an error per se it cost marks (give with inside hand became give with both hands) - but then I wasn't really there for marks but just to get him forward.

Because of low entries we were then back in the warm up for short session before the prelim test and he had a proper nap about going back in. More canter, more jollying around and then a canter round the whiteboards before he threw a another nap at going down the centre line again. I just stopped him dropping his shoulder and he got a pony club boot for that. "Some reluctance" said the judge. Anyway I'd shortened my stirrups and decided to go for the 'ride it like you stole it' approach and it wasn't pretty but there's a lot of canter in prelim 3 and he did it all. Hollowed in places and I'd given up with any thought of a pretty outline but a very generous 66.25% and judges comments were spot on all round.

By the time I'd loaded up everyone had finished and the judge (list 3) was in the office when I got my sheets. She said that the nap down the centre line deserved a good smack and although she would never want to see anyone constantly after their horse with the whip in her opinion he was actually being quite naughty and once he had been told off then he did knuckle down. I didn't ask for her opinion btw she was just being very nice and very interested and liked the pony a lot. She was reading my sheets and reminding herself what she had seen. Also told me to make sure I'm coming in with the right mental attitude even if I over stimulate him a bit and we get the odd buck then its better than the opposite at this level.

I do think from his POV he's done rather more slower work recently than ideal. That's purely due to ground conditions as normally we're up in the hills for 1-2 hour strenuous fast rides regularly whereas our last big ride up there was nearly all walk.

I guess there are degrees of 'ugly'

If you want to sacrifice the outline and have a few more abrupt, upwards transitions, I think that's fine.

Pony club kicking and chasing a sour horse through a whole test is less appealing to spectators and to the horse.
Also could be counter productive if he drops off the leg because he isn't brimming with confidence - lots of horses shut down a little when nervous rather than outwardly showing it.

My older horse can be a bit dry in tests sometimes- I have found a short, sharp, warm up works best. Definitely canter around the boards rather than trot while waiting for the bell. I try to think of my first centre line as a medium trot and the same out of the first half.
Also he is much perkier if the rest of his work is fun- so going galloping, on fun rides, hound exercise etc.

I've been trying to work out if I think its nerves - but today was local and a venue he's done clinics at so I'm not sure. Bored very possibly and that has been at the back of my mind because normally he would be doing a lot more faster fun stuff but the last decent fun ride was early June and then the ground turned to concrete. He's had some good clinics to go to and was his usual bouncy self in those but I just don't think he sees the point in dressage for the sake of dressage.....

 

[Tiddlypom]

If he genuinely only gets sticky during the test at competitions, and he schools and does the same tests fine at home, then as a rider I would be blaming myself for having inadvertently been riding less well/putting the handbrake on in competition and sickening him. It happens.

If he really doesn’t like dressage then why force him to do it. I’d certainly knock those horrible fiddly walk/trot tests on the head at the least.

How important is dressage you, is he the horse for you if he doesn’t like dressage?

 

[j1ffy]

I thought I'd follow up as we went out today.

I still think some people took my OP as almost asking permission to thrash my horse round. I wouldn't do that and quite frankly if I tried he would deck me.

Massively short on entries today so I decided from the outset that I would treat it as a training exercise. I was the only person in the Intro class so had a good jolly canter around the warm up but the judge literally rang the bell as I entered the main arena so we got a jolly trot which wasn't quite the plan. It was "OK". I have ridden this test so, so many times but had a brain fade in the walk move and whilst it wasn't an error per se it cost marks (give with inside hand became give with both hands) - but then I wasn't really there for marks but just to get him forward.

Because of low entries we were then back in the warm up for short session before the prelim test and he had a proper nap about going back in. More canter, more jollying around and then a canter round the whiteboards before he threw a another nap at going down the centre line again. I just stopped him dropping his shoulder and he got a pony club boot for that. "Some reluctance" said the judge. Anyway I'd shortened my stirrups and decided to go for the 'ride it like you stole it' approach and it wasn't pretty but there's a lot of canter in prelim 3 and he did it all. Hollowed in places and I'd given up with any thought of a pretty outline but a very generous 66.25% and judges comments were spot on all round.

By the time I'd loaded up everyone had finished and the judge (list 3) was in the office when I got my sheets. She said that the nap down the centre line deserved a good smack and although she would never want to see anyone constantly after their horse with the whip in her opinion he was actually being quite naughty and once he had been told off then he did knuckle down. I didn't ask for her opinion btw she was just being very nice and very interested and liked the pony a lot. She was reading my sheets and reminding herself what she had seen. Also told me to make sure I'm coming in with the right mental attitude even if I over stimulate him a bit and we get the odd buck then its better than the opposite at this level.

I do think from his POV he's done rather more slower work recently than ideal. That's purely due to ground conditions as normally we're up in the hills for 1-2 hour strenuous fast rides regularly whereas our last big ride up there was nearly all walk.



I've been trying to work out if I think its nerves - but today was local and a venue he's done clinics at so I'm not sure. Bored very possibly and that has been at the back of my mind because normally he would be doing a lot more faster fun stuff but the last decent fun ride was early June and then the ground turned to concrete. He's had some good clinics to go to and was his usual bouncy self in those but I just don't think he sees the point in dressage for the sake of dressage.....

Well done - it sounds like it was an educational outing for both of you. It's nice when the judge takes an interest, and hopefully reassures you that riding a forward test with the outline inconsistent isn't the end of the world! I don't think there should be an expectation of 'on the bit' at intro, it should be about rhythm and 'on the aids' IMHO. And I agree with Tiddlypom that Intro tests aren't great in your situation as they don't encourage a forward flowing ride.

FWIW I didn't think you were suggesting beating him round a test, but I think there is a tendency on the forum (and social media more widely) to take the written word very literally / assume an extreme version of what is written. I read it as 'looking / feeling a bit messy; lacking accuracy'. I have found that what feels messy as a rider often doesn't look as bad to the observer - I often feel like I'm flapping all over the place, but when I watch the video back it's far better than it felt. While we all aspire to being able to sit and do nothing, the reality is that as riders we have to constantly move to stay with the horse, be there mentally and physically to guide the horse and sometimes be 'louder' - especially on greener horses.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

The language thing is interesting to me because of the images associated with it. I also write for dressage so when I read 'ugly' it brought up all sorts of images of tests I'd rather not have had to sit through watching.

Whatever works to get the right mindset though. For me I think if I used 'ride it like you stole it' idea, I'd get all grippy which is something I have been steadily learning not to do and finding when I soften and do less the horse I ride goes forward much more easily. If I did 'ride like you stole it' the handbrake would go on and no amount of pony club kicking would save me! Or probably be fair on the horse.

 

[Gloi]

That’s the sort of approach I was suggesting. I think a gallop in the warmup might upset a few other competitors from my experience of dressage particularly if it’s in intro and there’s a lot of very young horses but could definitely get a good off the leg canter. I think the asking to go first is a good idea as there is less likely to be many people in the warmup when trying to get your forward.

Personally I don't think people should canter during the warm up for a test that does not have canter in it if there are other horses in the warm up ring.

 

[humblepie]

Personally I don't think people should canter during the warm up for a test that does not have canter in it if there are other horses in the warm up ring.

I don’t what the rules are but yes should think of others.

 

[Gloi]

I don’t what the rules are but yes should think of others.

The rules don't say not to but you always seem to get inconsiderate people who don't care who they upset.

 

[Cragrat]

Personally I don't think people should canter during the warm up for a test that does not have canter in it if there are other horses in the warm up ring.

I agree in an ideal world, but there could easily be prelim and even novice horses warming up at the same time as intro horses, especially if entries are low.

 

[tristars]

The language thing is interesting to me because of the images associated with it. I also write for dressage so when I read 'ugly' it brought up all sorts of images of tests I'd rather not have had to sit through watching.

Whatever works to get the right mindset though. For me I think if I used 'ride it like you stole it' idea, I'd get all grippy which is something I have been steadily learning not to do and finding when I soften and do less the horse I ride goes forward much more easily. If I did 'ride like you stole it' the handbrake would go on and no amount of pony club kicking would save me! Or probably be fair on the horse.

More of this please

Less force more sync

 

[SEL]

Purposely stayed away from this after my update because we were at Trailblazers today. Nothing like a massive show to put a rocket up a pony's bottom! That sand walkway from the lorries to our warm up felt miles long especially as we did a fabulous passage down it. Unintentionally. With a white faced human praying he kept it together.

Warm up was heaving and like some have said above you don't get to choose the pace other people ride at. Entering an Intro test doesn't mean you only get people walking & trotting around I'm afraid. I had the back end of long arena Elementary earlier this week in with me. Choose your competition with care if that's a problem! (Although does left hand to left hand not apply any more??)

As for riding quietly - well that's always the aim isn't it? But training isn't linear and sometimes it isn’t as pretty as we aspire to. Our canter transitions are a way off being pretty and that's OK at the moment. He has a big powerful back end but not always the balance to use it properly. We're working on it.

In terms of today - educational. Results wise less so as there were gremlins in the judge's box and by the photographer. Movements at the A end not bad but less said about the C end the better! Actually quite proud of him for holding it together though because I don't think he'd ever seen so many horses in one place, let alone tannoys, trade stands etc etc. Apparently purple flowers are very dangerous too but yellow is fine.

And to everyone who fed back constructive advice - thank you.

 

[SEL]

The language thing is interesting to me because of the images associated with it. I also write for dressage so when I read 'ugly' it brought up all sorts of images of tests I'd rather not have had to sit through watching.

Whatever works to get the right mindset though. For me I think if I used 'ride it like you stole it' idea, I'd get all grippy which is something I have been steadily learning not to do and finding when I soften and do less the horse I ride goes forward much more easily. If I did 'ride like you stole it' the handbrake would go on and no amount of pony club kicking would save me! Or probably be fair on the horse.

So "riding like you stole it" is probably an old phrase and maybe not one much used in the UK. Whilst a pony club kick has its place if you're preventing a dropped shoulder and nap the phrase really means the sit deep and GO style of riding. I've done it heading down a rogue cow on a round-up but also those gallops where you can go flat out, but the ground probably means you want your bum in the saddle. From my perspective in a 20x40 it was getting the message across that he was absolutely capable of cantering 4 x 20m circles and he just needed to get on with it. Which he did. I can steer from my seat so it meant contact wasn't really very "dressage" but for what was needed on the day it worked.

 

[humblepie]

Trailblazers is full on. Well done for going and sounds like it was a good resort and good progress.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would do your canter transitions from walk in training
And see if that helps develop the transition .

 

[SEL]

Trailblazers is full on. Well done for going and sounds like it was a good resort and good progress.

Rather too full on today - we impressed the judges with our best buck / explosive fart acrobatics down the long side.

 

[frankieduck]

Not read all the replies sorry but I have a friend who is a dressage judge, I once asked her the question, if my horse ignores my leg am I better ‘correcting’ it even if it makes that movement a bit ugly or should I just grit my teeth and quietly carry on. Her response was she’d always rather see a rider take corrective action as it shows effectiveness of the rider and that you have acknowledged that you haven’t performed the movement correctly if that makes sense. She said obviously it won’t mark well but as a judge she’d rather see that as part of an overall test than a rider that doesn’t appear to be addressing issues, which would be taken into consideration in the collective score. Same if a horse is trundling along star gazing during the free walk for example, she’d rather see the rider making an effort to get the horse back down into the bit and striding forward than just sitting there hoping for the best, even if it didn’t necessarily paint the ideal picture of quiet and effortless they’d hoped for! Of course not every judge will have the same opinion but just what she advised from her perspective.

 

[khalswitz]

I think that unwittingly we often create a bit of this problem ourselves as soon as we turn up the centre line - mainly I think from trying too hard to get it all right. I know I am certainly guilty of changing the way I ride without even realising it. In my case my coach noticed that I tend to hold my breath as soon as my test starts to now I concentrate on breathing and let the test take care of itself.

Years ago I had a horse who would back off the leg as soon as the test started. As mentioned above I went HC and told the judge on my trot round what had been happening and that I would be flicking him with my stick when he dropped behind my leg. Fortunately it only took the one go for it to click for both of us and he went on to be a super competition horse.

With my current horse I often find that doing a good strong medium canter on the go around the arena before the bell goes works wonders for him.

I would be tempted to try to get out to some test riding clinics, plait up and go in your show clothes to mimic a competition and use that to work through this. They do very quicky learn that they can drop behind the leg and the rider isn't likely to do much about it in a test.

I use the time before the bell to have a really strong canter round the outside (or inside, depending on the set up). A couple of strong trot transitions straight into medium canter down the long side, back into trot round the end, and the same down the next side. Even before an intro test if the horse required it.

I would never choose to ride an 'ugly' or unpleasant test though. Maybe a strong forwards one, but that would be as far as I would go.

Have you tried having a good medium canter as you're going round before the bell? Also I think intro tests are dull and fiddly and it sounds like your horse might too I'd be inclined to do prelim only personally, a bit more to do might inspire him.
Id sacrifice outline and nice for travelling but I wouldn't chase for it in a test situation. I've seen some ugly rounds in the past (and ridden one which with hindsight I wish I hadn't) and it just doesn't sit well with me

I agree with all of these. A good solid canter round the arena before you start!

My old TB was always more forward and less tense after a good canter - I used to get out of the saddle and do a good showjumping canter round with a few canter-trot -canter transitions before going into a test, so that he was paying attention and thinking forward. Worked really well for him and meant when I put the leg on when entering at A he’d go forward!