Pus in foot/bad feet/ new farrier questions

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
A long one from me, so please grab a cuppa :rolleyes:

Monday night C comes in hopping lame. We manage to get her in from her individual paddock on 3 legs :(. I inspect the legs, no heat apart from a puffy fetlock and she had been hooning prior to my arrival apparently.

Made her comfortable, came home and consulted my horse bible and within an hour we were on the phone to the vet, who advised it was either PIF, septic joint/tendon or a fracture. :eek::( Obviously at that point we called her out.

Upon arriving she found a raging digital pulse (and told me where to find it, very helpful lady :)) and diagnosed PIF right away (she felt for heat in legs etc - no pain so she was very satisfied it was that)

She dug, found nothing. But did raise some pertinent questions about the state of C's feet *which I will go into later

We have wet poulticed for 3 days, we're on our first day and a half and there's grey ooze which I assume is the pus (I have never poulticed before, so I'm learning) anyway, so keeping foot nice and clean and will keep poulticing til end of thurdsay and change to dry.

Anyway ok now we come to my questions.

On my blacksmiths previous visit I asked him about her feet. I was concerned with the wet conditions (our land at home is wet) and a "smell" AND her bad quality horn, that something might need to be done for her. On inspection he pronounced her feet great. Fabulous... and despite me suggesting he come out more frequently than 7 weeks, he said no - there wouldn't be much to work with so not to bother.

When the vet took her shoe off she was shocked and called me round to look. She suggested the shoe was unsupported by sole and just basically against the thin hoof wall. Her white line was diseased and in the vets opinion her feet weren't very good at all. :(

Now, previous to this I have been hugely happy with my farrier. No problems whatsoever, but I feel really quite let down. I am not the most au-fait with feet, I'll admit, so really would expect to be guided by my farrier and I feel I have been left in the dark, despite asking, about the state of her feet.

So now I am thinking of getting a new farrier. It seems according to the vet that C will need some kind of remedial farriery now to sort her feet out and I don't feel that's a route I can go down with current farrier.

So where would you turn now? How do I find a good farrier who will help me think outside the box when it comes to finding a way of getting C's feet back in good condition?

Some details you may want to know:
She's fed spillers cool mix, hi-fi lite, naf pink powder, biotin and apple cider vinegar.

She was just coming back into work, so ten mins on horse-walker and steady walking round lanes with a bit of schooling on a surface.
 

Lady La La

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 September 2010
Messages
3,087
Location
Essex
Visit site
Word of mouth, re farrier. Is she still at livery? Can you ask around there for peoples recommendations?
Without seeing the state of her feet, it would be impossible to advise anything re the previous farriers work, but a second opinion is always a good idea.
So these would be my next steps if it were my horse...asking for farrier recommendations in order to get a second opinion on your mares feet.
I hope her abcess clears up swiftly hun :)
 
Last edited:

Nocturnal

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 April 2010
Messages
1,412
Visit site
Do you have any photos of her feet? The smell may be thrush which can be treated with diluted milton and sudocreme. The grey/black gunk is pus, so keep wet poulticing until that stops coming out.

Re new farrier - whereabouts are you? Maybe someone can recommend a good'un.

ETA: pus stinks, so give the gunk a sniff and you should know if it's pus or not ;)
 
Last edited:

be positive

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 July 2011
Messages
19,396
Visit site
If the vet did not find the abscess and open it up the grey matter is probably not pus from the abscess but just the slime from the poultice combined with dirt from the foot in general, I could be wrong but it is usually black and as it comes out the pain relief should be almost instant.
If this is the case you really need a farrier to come and get it opened so it can drain, tubbing is useful to help clean and draw out any pus in the foot.

Regarding your farrier and condition of her feet if you are not happy is there another coming to the yard that you could use , photos would be a good idea I am sure you will get plenty of advice then.
 

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
I can get some photos, I am due to go back down there to change poultice this afternoon, so will get some :) Yep, we're at livery - at least until I get told if she needs significant time off etc in which case she'll come home. The livery yard owner who is clearly very knowledgeable has a farrier she's had for 20 odd years I think he's worth a try!

I am in South Wales, close to Cardiff.
 

Lady La La

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 September 2010
Messages
3,087
Location
Essex
Visit site
I can get some photos, I am due to go back down there to change poultice this afternoon, so will get some :) Yep, we're at livery - at least until I get told if she needs significant time off etc in which case she'll come home. The livery yard owner who is clearly very knowledgeable has a farrier she's had for 20 odd years I think he's worth a try!

I am in South Wales, close to Cardiff.

Sounds like a good plan re the farrier. I would advise calling him out as soon as you can to deal with the abcess if the vet hasnt managed to dig it out...

Hope she's feeling better soon.
 

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
If the vet did not find the abscess and open it up the grey matter is probably not pus from the abscess but just the slime from the poultice combined with dirt from the foot in general, I could be wrong but it is usually black and as it comes out the pain relief should be almost instant.
If this is the case you really need a farrier to come and get it opened so it can drain, tubbing is useful to help clean and draw out any pus in the foot.

Regarding your farrier and condition of her feet if you are not happy is there another coming to the yard that you could use , photos would be a good idea I am sure you will get plenty of advice then.

Thank you BP, I will get some good pics this afternoon. We really hoped the vet would find the abscess pretty easily, but sadly this was not the case. She did say she will come back again on Thurs if not found and dig again. I don't know if I would be able to get a new farrier to come to me that quickly, but its worth a call I guess?

Who is best to treat PIF, a vet or a farrier? I would have always said farrier, but my faith is a little rocked right now!
 

be positive

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 July 2011
Messages
19,396
Visit site
I would usually say farrier but agree with your concerns, ask the YO most farriers are happy to take on new clients within a yard and he may be in the area and able to help, if you dont ask you wont know. Otherwise get the vet back for another dig around, it can take a while to find if they are very deep.
 

classicalfan

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 November 2010
Messages
696
Location
At the end of my tether
Visit site
Agree with Be Positive. If it is an abcess the farrier should find it.
If your horse has been fine until now I was wondering why you are taking more notice of your vet than your farrier. Did she diagnose white line disease or did she see a dark mark on the white line which would perhaps be the site of old bruising and possibly the abcess too? Farriers see alot more feet than vets and yours knows what is normal for your horse. Your vet's reaction worries me more than your farrier's.
 

Tnavas

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 October 2005
Messages
8,480
Location
New Zealand but from UK
Visit site
My first call for PIF is the farrier - purely because they are more profficient at finding the abscess - feet are their speciality.

You are doing the right thing by wet poulticing - it softens the foot and allows the pus to find a way out. Tubbing is also good between poultices as again it softens and also cleans the foot.

If your YO has used the same farrier for so many years then he must be good I'd definately ask her for his number. Maybe she would phone him for you and ask him to come right away.

How long is it since the farrier shod your horse? Sometimes when the weather has been wet a large amount of sole will be shed leaving the foot looking like it should have been trimmed back more.
 

Lady La La

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 September 2010
Messages
3,087
Location
Essex
Visit site
Agree with Be Positive. If it is an abcess the farrier should find it.
If your horse has been fine until now I was wondering why you are taking more notice of your vet than your farrier. Did she diagnose white line disease or did she see a dark mark on the white line which would perhaps be the site of old bruising and possibly the abcess too? Farriers see alot more feet than vets and yours knows what is normal for your horse. Your vet's reaction worries me more than your farrier's.

This might well be the case, but a second opinion isn't going to hurt. It can only put her mind at rest, if nothing else..
 

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
I haven't actually had the horse long CF, 6 months, in which she's seen the farrier 4 times however I have not been riding her, my experience with the farrier has been with previous horses.

Her words were something like "your white line is black and the sole is about half an inch above the base of the hoof" she did say also she didnt presume to tell the farrier his job but she would say catergorically my horse needs doing more frequently than every 8 weeks, which is what I was advised.. :(
 

Slinkyunicorn

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 January 2009
Messages
45,409
Location
Should be working.....
www.rutlandhorseextras.co.uk
Deffo get the farrier to have a look - if thr YO has used that farrier for 20 years he will probably come out as its an emergency.

On of ours had just had a really high up abcess - the vet tried twice to drain it but by their own admission where reluctant to cut to much away - we hot tubbed nad poulticed and got our farrier to look - he did have to cut away quite a lot but her hoof by then had a lot of pus in it - the relief as someone else has said was almost immediate - we had to keep hot tubbing and hot poulticing to get it really clean. She aslo had antibiotics to help clear it up.:)
 

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
How long is it since the farrier shod your horse? Sometimes when the weather has been wet a large amount of sole will be shed leaving the foot looking like it should have been trimmed back more.

6 and a half weeks.

It also looks like, from the base of the frog something hard is growing towards the point of the frog on either side. I took a fleeting glance through my lameness book and heard of a second sole. That is what it feels like, another layer growing - dont know if thats any help.. I do really need photos!!

Have rung YO for new farriers number :)
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 May 2009
Messages
7,241
Visit site
Although they do - farriers are NOT allowed to dig into live tissue by law. Only vets are allowed to hunt for abcesses.

The White line disease can only be cured by diet alongside topical treamemts
 

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
Although they do - farriers are NOT allowed to dig into live tissue by law. Only vets are allowed to hunt for abcesses.

The White line disease can only be cured by diet alongside topical treamemts

:confused::( Now I am quadruple confused about the digging part!!

What diet would help Oberon? :)
 

Tnavas

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 October 2005
Messages
8,480
Location
New Zealand but from UK
Visit site
Although they do - farriers are NOT allowed to dig into live tissue by law. Only vets are allowed to hunt for abcesses.

Rubbish! I'd never let the vet hunt for an abscess - they make to much mess of the foot - the farrier is a foot specialist and is far more qualified to find an abscess purely by his experience.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 May 2009
Messages
7,241
Visit site
Law is the law. Vets allowed to invade live tissue - no one else. The fact that is happens routinely is terrible.
'foot soecialist' is one thing. Surgeon is another.
 

whiteclover

Well-Known Member
Joined
22 March 2011
Messages
815
Visit site
Rubbish! I'd never let the vet hunt for an abscess - they make to much mess of the foot - the farrier is a foot specialist and is far more qualified to find an abscess purely by his experience.

I agree Id always get a farrier to do it. Also ask the new farrier about white line disease. Although Ive never dealt with it before.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 May 2009
Messages
7,241
Visit site
White line disease by the fact that it is stretched in the first place is a symptom of poor wall connection (v common in domestic horses). This is fixed by reviewing the diet. I was shocked by how tight my Arab's WL became after a month of feeding balanced minerals. Better than ive seen in 20 years with him.

Topicals can fight infection, but won't unstretch the WL (which is how it gets infected in the first place).

Ps I like Red Horse products too.
 

Tinker_Belle

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 February 2008
Messages
10,936
Location
Gloucestershire.
Visit site
Sorry, nothing helpful to add apart from the fact that I have always gone on word of mouth for farriers, EDTs, vets etc. I am the livery with the most expensive farrier on the yard (£35 for a trim) but he will stay for as long as the work needs doing, he does a very good job and I know without a doubt if I call him with a problem he will be straight out. He's fitted me in on an evening appointment before now when I was concerned about S having thrush. He costs me around £15 extra compared to the other farriers that come to the yard but I have absolutely no concern with his work.

My first response would be to get the vet out for anything suspicious such as severe lameness (as you did) but having said that, vets don't know it all. Farriers are specialists, they train in the treatment and care of the hoof (obviously) so my plan would be to possibly get the vet out for the original diagnosis and then phone my farrier to ask his advice and possibly to get him to come out and see the hoof.

I've read through this thread and can't make up my mind whether you are happy with your farrier or not? :confused:
I would say maybe get your farrier and vet to speak to each other about the problem but that has almost lead to World War Three in my experience. If you trust your farrier then I would get him out to come and have a look as the hoof is their area.

Sorry, I don't know how much help that has been but it is a horrible worry when this sort of thing crops up :(.
When S had a similar problem it was vet for initial diagnosis and treatment in the form of Antibiotics and Bute but farrier to keep a check on the abscess and decide what needed doing next.
Last I was aware farriers were allowed to 'dig' in to the hoof to release pressure in the form of pus? :confused:
 

moorman

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 September 2011
Messages
124
Location
Soth West UK
Visit site
Don’t know if it is of any help but as a farrier I can say that in my opinion there is only one way to treat PIF and that is vet and farrier work together.
It is very easy to forget that the vet is responsible for the animals well-being under the animal welfare act. And although farriers come under the act we are not allowed to diagnose, prognosis, or treat, unless its an emergency.
If ever I get called out to PIF I will always contact the vet and ask if it is OK to proceed and if so will always inform them of what I found.
Before I was a referral farrier and have a round of clients, there was a well kept secret amongst farriers:
If a vet asks you to take on a client it is very hard to refuse.
If you get on with your vet then always ask them who they would recommend, as it is so important to have someone who can work with the vet
 

Tinker_Belle

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 February 2008
Messages
10,936
Location
Gloucestershire.
Visit site
it is so important to have someone who can work with the vet

Yes! The only time I needed this to happen I ended up as a bit of a mediator as my farrier was fab but my vet was determined to be 'right' come what may so I had the vet on one hand telling me X,Y and Z but my farrier on the other saying "I've tried to explain X, Y & Z and they are not listening. I can't do any more than I have done but I do need to be there when your vet is next out" .

I moved vets not long after ;).
 

paddy555

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2010
Messages
12,690
Visit site
It has obviously come as a shock that your feet are poor but the only thing you can really do to help yourself is education. I know it should be possible to employ a professional and trust them but it simply isn't. I would start and learn everything I could about feet. Once you can "read" a foot then you will be able to evaluate the health of your feet when the shoe is removed and have some idea as to the quality of the farrier's work.
Many of us have had to do this.
 

Ranyhyn

Well-Known Member
Joined
21 November 2008
Messages
21,276
Location
Funny farm
Visit site
Thank you, yes have now got myself a lameness book by a vet with great details in it. You are right, it is better to know a lot myself, than to trust other people ;)
 

peaceandquiet1

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
1,879
Visit site
Sorry haven't read all posts, but as the OH of a farrier, PLEASE ask him to come back and explain all your concerns. Vets are not supposed to criticise the work of a farrier in their absence. It leads to incredible ill feeling and is a breach of professional etiquette. Farriers are experts at finding abcesses. If you are not happy with your farrier by all means change but please don't just drift off to another without discussing it all with your current one.
 
Top