Putting a 2yo infoal?

[linali]

I have always waited until my mares were three before putting them in foal (warmbloods). Is it ok to put a filly in foal at two years old so she foals as a three year old? I have heard of it done and wondered what the general opinion on this was?

 

[Iestyn]

OH had a 3yr old due to foal this year - she was well grown and is already about 16'3. Unfortunately a month before foaling she was checked and there was no foal! I would say opinions will vary on this one!

 

[foolsedition]

I think its more common to do it now than it was. Its 'something to do' before the filly is old enough to break in.
I think it really depends on the maturity of the filly and the type of stallion too, wouldn't chose a big stallion for a slight filly!?! Iam sure you will get conflicting advice about this. Personally, if i had a choice I would wait til filly was 3 and foaled at 4

 

[sybil]

Opinions definitely vary- alot would sy that they are too immature and it could damage them before 3 years old, but others would argue that they have done so and with no ill effects. I would tend to sit in the "not before 3 years old" camp, but it really is up to your mare and you.

 

[arwenplusone]

Personally I don't think it is right to put them in foal at two.
For one they are still growing (and some warmbloods at two really are still babies) so putting their efforts into growing a baby instead of themselves cannot be good. Also they are not 'mature' enough IMO.

I don't see why people can't wait a year. Everyone seems to want everything 'now' these days & I don't think it is in the best interest of the welfare of the filly.

Just my opinion though - I am sure that it is done with no apparent ill effects.

 

[millitiger]

i think it is done more now because people want to make the maximum £££ out of their horses- the theory being in foal at 2, foaled at 3, you can break in the 3yro autumn and sell/compete as a 4yro.

my now 4yro looked really mature and made up as a 2yro but there is no way i would have put her in foal- she may look mature on the outside but the growth plates, imo, are no way ready to carry all of the extra weight and lose all of the proteins etc

 

[AmyMay]

No, I would not put a two year old in foal.

 

[Springs]

No I would not put a 2yo in foal, they are still developing and growing.

 

[volatis]

I wouldn't do it and have been put off buying mares that have been bred from as 2yos.

 

[scotsmare]

I wouldn't do it - I toyed with the idea of putting my warmblood filly in foal last year as a 3 yr old but she went through a huge growth spurt and in the end I didn't do it - she grew two inches over the course of this last year and I don't regret not putting her in foal.

Edited to add - she still looked very much a baby as a 2 yr old so there's no way I would have done it then.

 

[crazycoloured]

personally i wouldnt put a 2 yr old in foal. it seems cruel as they are growing and developing themselves and there is the risk of more complications i would imagine.

 

[slingo1uk]

I would NEVER put a 2yr old filly in foal and quite frankly the only people i know that do this have got next years sales in mind .

 

[joe_carby]

one of my mates who is quite a big name always puts his 2 year olds in foal but that doesnt meen its right but when your dealing with the money in horses they do i wouldnt have thought they risk them

 

[Faberge]

If a vet deems a 2yr old mare mature enough to breed from, I think it is fine to do so. Some 2 yr olds are virtually fully grown and do just fine having a foal at 3 (in the wild they could be having their second foal as a 3 yr old!). On the other hand, others simply are not ready. As usual with horses, I think the answer is 'It depends...'

 

[251libby]

Like a 12 year old girl (human) having a baby..... wait a year

 

[Tnavas]

My mare was bred as a two year old - I hadn't planned to but was foal watching for a friend and my mare was grazing there. They had a lovely young stallion and they offered me a free service.

Serenity did really well - pic is of her about four days before the foal arrived. She foaled easily and was a brillient mum. Once the foal was born she did have a massive growth spurt and now at 5 has had a 2nd foal and is over 16hh.

So long as the mare is getting sensible nutrition then she should be OK.

 

[air78]

I wouldn't breed from a 2yo as I don't think they are mentaly mature enough........... but horses in the wild are doing it all the time, so nature disagrees with me

 

[teb]

There's maturity physically and mentally. Never mind the physical, mentally I don't think they're ready. Most people breeding 2yo's wouldn't actually consider the mentality part as lets face it, it's all about the money. And in general terms these are bigger farms recouping investments. Obviously you have exceptions to the rules but I don't believe you're putting the horses' best interest first by doing this. My opinion only of course.

And my really favorite ones are the 2yo's which are barely handled getting bred.

Terri

 

[Touchwood]

Not something I would do, personally. I do think it affects their long term physical maturity.

 

[magic104]

In the wild a filly might get in-foal at 2, but she does not always carry to full term. An animal should be allowed their time to grow & mature & be a baby for Christ sake. The reasons for putting them in foal at 2 are correct, money that is all it’s about. With the risks that are involved with foaling I think it is a selfish person who deliberately puts a baby in foal, because that is what a 2yo is. I worked for someone who did put their strapping (ended up 17hh) filly in foal & no there were no apparent problems. It was purely though so they could start her at 3 & they were hoping to stop her growth. Basically it suited them, there was no consideration as to whether it would suit the mare.

So as you can see, I am dead set against it, but wonder what the outcry would have been if I had taken my daughter at 13 to the local stud, after all she was considered mature on the outside!!!!!!!

 

[magicchett]

Just out of interest (apart from who has said already). Who has youngsters and has had experience of a filly foaling down @ 3 with complications/rejection/birth defects after recieving the correct nutrition/care?

My vet (after meeting my girl) said my filly could be put in at 2 (I didnt put her to stud). Her dam was put in at two, first foal and an Arabian. No complications and my filly is perfect and healthy (BUT...I am biased

)

This extra weight they carry (which is in the last 3 months of their ave' 11 months pregnancy, making the filly 3yrs that year) surley is training their body, ligaments and bones to become stronger?

This is the argument I hear for backing/riding 2yr olds in racing/general riding etc? Kind of similar but not if you see what I mean?

Provided the filly is getting everything she needs for her and baby to be healthy etc, does it really seem so bad? If they take when they are two in the wild, where life is alot harder than our pampered life we give them, does this not sugest its ok?

I think with any mum, they need to be a good teacher, and the problem with youngsters, is that a high percentage of them like to have a good old play. i.e my filly is great at running into fences, I wouldnt want her to foal until she learnt a little more life skill so she could pass this on. Other youngsters though, are a little more controlled and therefore would be a good teacher...

So IMO, I think each horse has to be looked individually and responsibly

 

[magic104]

A report that supports breeding 2yo's still does not make me happy to do it.

Breeding Two-Year Olds
Updated: Saturday February 7, 11:28 AM
Posted: Thursday January 29, 9:22 PM
EmailPrintRSSShareThis On January 18, 2009, Smarty Jones became a “grandpa” when his daughter Jonespartyofwon produced a filly in Pennsylvania. Since Jonespartyofwon isn’t even three full years old herself (she was foaled April 20, 2006), an immediate and predictable furor broke out on equine message boards across the country on the topic of breeding 2-year-old fillies. Many of the respondents characterized the practice as inhumane, comparing it to getting a young teenager pregnant. But is this comparison accurate?

Surprisingly, there is little relatively hard data on this issue on the Web, at least at sites not restricted to professional memberships. While studies have indicated that even yearling fillies do not seem to be endangered by pregnancy, other questions besides maternal mortality come to mind.

The most common objections usually raised to the breeding of a 2-year-old filly are that she may be stunted in her growth because of the physical demands of pregnancy; that she may not be mentally mature enough to bond with and raise her foal properly; and that such early breeding is somehow unnatural. But the “unnatural” argument does not seem to be supported. In feral herds, where equine behavior is not hampered by human conventions, 2-year-old fillies can and do get bred, provided they are cycling and receptive. Of course, not all are. Like 14- and 15-year-old girls, 2-year-old fillies vary in their physical maturity, and some do not cycle reliably, making breeding and conception less likely.

On the other hand, some fillies begin cycling regularly at a relatively young age and conceive readily if bred – sometimes a little too readily, as more than one owner of a “surprise!” foal can attest. A famous case is that of Amazing Philly, a foal of 2000 whose dam Speak Compelling was an early 3-year-old in training when the filly was born. The sire was never identified, but is believed to have probably been one of the colts stabled at the 1999 Barretts March sale of 2-year-olds in training at which Speak Compelling was sold.

As Speak Compelling went on to make 50 starts all told, winning five, and was comparable to her dam’s other foals in racing ability, she seems to be fair evidence that an early pregnancy need not compromise a filly’s athletic potential. And she probably isn’t atypical. According to information at the American Association of Equine Practitioners (AAEP) Web site, the first seven or eight months of pregnancy place only slight demands on the mare. Thus, assuming a normal growth rate, a filly bred at 22-24 months will probably have 98% or more of her growth already completed by the time she encounters the higher demands of late pregnancy, making marked stunting unlikely. (There is some anecdotal evidence that the type of filly that is likely to show early sexual maturity tends to be of the smaller, early-developing type physically as well, which may account for the persistent belief that an early pregnancy will stunt a filly.)

Whether a 2- or 3-year-old filly has the mental maturity to raise a foal is another question. The available evidence does seem to suggest that the experienced broodmare is more successful at raising foals, all other factors being equal, but evidence linking maternal age at the birth of a first foal to the probability of that foal’s survival seems more difficult to come by. Another question for further research might be whether the juvenile filly is more vulnerable to contracting sexually transmitted diseases than an older female, a difference known to exist in humans.

Regardless of the evidence (or lack of it) regarding the effects of early breeding on mare and foal, a good reason for thinking twice about breeding a 2-year-old is the question of whether she is the sort of filly that should be bred regardless of age. Virtually all Thoroughbred fillies sent to the breeding shed at 2 are unraced, which means that they have not been tested for racing performance. While a filly that was unable to race due to illness or accident may be worth considering if her conformation and pedigree are both good, a filly that was physically unable to withstand training is another question, and so is a filly that was taken out of training due to mental issues or a wicked case of the slows. A bad broodmare prospect is a bad broodmare prospect, regardless of age.

Despite its unpopularity, early breeding has had some good results. A search through the history books reveals that 1844 Two Thousand Guineas winner The Ugly Buck (GB) was produced by Monstrosity (GB) when she was just 3; likewise, the dam of the great foundation mare Queen Mary (GB), an unnamed daughter of Plenipotentiary (GB), was just 3 when her famous daughter was foaled. More recently, Silvery Swan was bred to Mr. Greeley as a 2-year-old and produced 2000 Cigar Mile Handicap (gr. I) winner El Corredor. She went on to prove that the early pregnancy had not depleted her resources as a producer by throwing 2001 Reeve Schley Jr. Stakes (gr. IIIT) winner Silver Tornado as her second foal and 2005 Haskell Invitational Handicap (gr. I) Roman Ruler as her fifth.

Based on the available evidence, is breeding a filly as a 2-year-old ever a good idea? For Silvery Swan and Monstrosity, the results justified the decision, but they cannot be taken as typical; after all, very few mares of any age produce multiple grade I winners or Classic winners. The best answer seems to be “it depends,” according to the overall maturity of the filly being considered. For a well-developed, healthy, sensible filly that would otherwise be a good broodmare prospect, the risks may be little if any more than for a 3- or 4-year-old. But when in doubt, it may be best to follow traditional wisdom and wait another year

And a link to another discussion on breeding 2yo
http://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/6/15185.html

 

[cruiseline]

Great Article

I am also of the opinion that it depends on each individual horse. When we talk about putting a 2 year old in foal, you also must consider that the growing foal will have minimal (if any) affect on the mare until the last few months of the pregnancy. By this time the mare is in her 3rd year.

I have bred a 2 year old, she was a very mature girl for her age, she foaled at 3, was a superb mother and after weaning was backed and went into a very successful career as an endurance horse.

On the other hand, I have a filly that I really really want to use as a broodmare, she is 2 now, but she is definitely not mature enough this year to put in foal, so I will wait.

 

[Faberge]

Cruiseline, your situation reminds me of mine - I bought a 2 year old who was already in foal in the summer of last year. Now 3, she has a month left till her due date. She is a mature mare with a sensible brain on her, and I have no regrets about buying her in foal.

On the other hand, I really wanted to put my 2006 filly in foal this year (to Gan1's Gribaldi stallion Adonnis!) but my vet said she wasn't ready, so that put the kaibosh on that one. In this case, it was not the right thing to do.

There doesn't seem to be much value in making conrete statements about whether it is a good idea in general as individual horses/cases are so different.

My experience is with warmbloods so I am not really qualified to comment on other breeds, but Tnavas your mare looks super.

Let the debate rumble on...

 

[broome35]

I totally agree with Faberge and Cruiseline. An experienced breeder will know whether a 2yr old is mature enough or not and providing the correct nutrition is fed i.e extra additives ( I use Optigrow) the filly will be perfectly fine. I have not bred from many 2yr olds but that is not to say it cannot be done safely providing the welfare of the mare is considered. I would always be careful in my choice of stallion too, never choose anything too big, try to go like for like re height and build.

I would not advise anyone new to the breeding game to go with a 2yr old, they should opt for a proven broodmare.

 

[TarrSteps]

Out of curiosity, Cruiseline, do your broodmares live in a herd situation?

I would agree that it's a very individual issue and obviously many warmblood breeders regularly put at least some of their 2 year olds in foal without dire consequences. In that case, too, one of the things breeders are breeding for is good broodmares so they want to know which ones are likely to be good producers before they are backed so a decision can be made on how to target them, for sale or keeps. A mare that produces a fantastic foal right off might, depending on the breeder, receive only the most basic training to do her mare test (at which she will be expected to show offspring - another reason to breed sooner rather than later) as the feeling will be she'll likely be worth more to the program as a producer than a competitor in the long haul.

Racing people feel similarly. It's pretty established that great racing mares do not necessarily make great broodmares (quite the opposite in many cases) so lack of great results and/or an early injury in training won't necessarily put a breeder off. Good mares bring more to the production of foals than strict athletic ability. Which is not to say substandard mares should be bred - not at all - just that the sorts of extra attributes that make a great broodmare may only be visible when she's a broodmare and that's what "business breeders" want to know as early as possible.

For the average one horse breeder I'm not sure the same situation applies. But to each their own.

My question about the herd though, I think is relevant. I'm not a fan of "only foals" anyway (an opinion based on experience with literally 100s of young horses and much conversation with very experienced breeders and producers) but I would have some reservations about a horse that is itself not socially mature/experienced being the sole input for a foal. Many of the very young mares I've seen put in foal live in herds with mares of varying ages, some very experienced, which is a much more "natural" situation for development. I do wonder if that's a factor often ignored.

 

[JanetGeorge]

[ QUOTE ]

My question about the herd though, I think is relevant. I'm not a fan of "only foals" anyway (an opinion based on experience with literally 100s of young horses and much conversation with very experienced breeders and producers) but I would have some reservations about a horse that is itself not socially mature/experienced being the sole input for a foal. Many of the very young mares I've seen put in foal live in herds with mares of varying ages, some very experienced, which is a much more "natural" situation for development. I do wonder if that's a factor often ignored.

[/ QUOTE ]

My best broodmare produced an 'only foal' the first year I was 'in' Irish Draughts. I still have that filly and she is the biggest BITCH on the place with other horses. All that mare's other fillies (and two are now Mums themselves) are great in a herd situation and drop down to near the bottom of the pecking order (where Mum has always been until running with her own daughters where she is boss.)

I loathe broodmares who are very bossy and aggressive with other horses - I have two of them and they're in together (and the 'only foal' is STILL boss despite the other mare being MUCH bigger!) Good socialisation with other horses is one of the most important factors in producing well-mannered horses IMHO!

I don't breed 2 year olds - my 2 year old fillies are running with a nice, but grumpy 21 year old retired mare who keeps them all in their place in a firm - but non-aggressive way. If I'm keeping them as brood mares, they're lightly backed at 3 before being put in foal to foal down at four. All to date have been great Mums - they might have been a year younger, but I'm not planning to test the theory.