Putting a mare in foal at 2

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missyme10

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Hello all,

I am seeking general opinion of the idea of putting a mare in foal at 2.
For those who think its not right - why is it not right?
For those who do, again why?

I would be particuarly interested in any scientific evidence, ie. studies that have been carried out of mares put in foal at 2 - there seems to be a lack of this or maybe I'm just not looking in the right places??

I do have a 2 year old warmblood and it has been suggested I put her in foal - I neither think this is a good idea or bad idea, I really dont know - hence am seeking the opinion of others. I am also trying to seperate the emotional response from the logical one, ie the Mumsy side of me thinks oh no I couldn't do that, but the logical side is asking, well why not, what is the evidence to say its wrong considering in the wild, she'd most likely already be in foal !!
Has anyone had a mare who's had their first foal at 3, if so what was your experience, whether positive or negative.

I know many may want to bring into the discussion whether the mare in question is of good enough quality to breed - yes she is, she's well bred with good conformation and moves beautifully.

Thanks all in advance for your advice x
 
i personally wouldn't as i feel the mare is not fully developed herself. she wont be fully 'filled out' and may currently just be gangly and not have alot of covering. until the horse is developed and mature, then you will know you will get a quality foal. this is coming from someone who has no idea of the scientific factors and is coming from opinion.
 
She's still a baby herself and still growing have seen travellers mares put in foal at a young age and they are stunted in their growth. Use to be old tale about mare in foal at 2 and easy to break while in foal, sell foal and ride mare, but I think this was in the days of horses when they were run into the ground, Victoria times and beyond as in those days a horse was old at 9 years and worn out.:(:(
 
I have a 2 yr old warmblood and there is no way on this earth I would put her in foal this year. She's 16.1hh but to look at her you would say straight away that she was still a baby. She is still growing herself & not physically (or mentally probably) able to deal with a baby.
Sure, I reckon she would get in foal, but that doesn't mean it is the right thing for her.
 
Just wondered why it has been suggested to put her in foal at such a young age. If shes well bred, moves well then surely she would benefit from being let to mature, start a career, prove herself or not?? then possibly have a foal later on??
 
Louby said:
Just wondered why it has been suggested to put her in foal at such a young age. If shes well bred, moves well then surely she would benefit from being let to mature, start a career, prove herself or not?? then possibly have a foal later on??
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It was suggested as I dont plan to back her until age 4, and once backed and in work, she will hopefully be my daughters competition horse, and if so and they go well together, they will keep going, as this is what she was bought for. So having a foal later on wont really be an option, well maybe many many years later as in when she's retired from competative riding she could x
 
I have never seen a 2 year old that looks anything but babyish. Let them be a baby themselves before you let them have their own. Yes, i get that it often makes a horse mentally mature faster, but why rush it? They're still growing, and need their energy and food for that, not feeding a developing foal inside them. I just see no need, why the rush??

ETS: cross posted. I can sort of see your point about wanting to get it over with before you can ride her... but i don't think it justifies it.

How about waiting a year, putting her in foal as a 3 year old, start some light backing before she gets too heavy and then turn her away to have the foal, then you can restart her after a holiday and some time to grow up as a 4/5y.o.
 
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fumanchu said:
Totally irresponsible.
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When I stated I am trying to seperate the emotional response from the logical one, this response is a good example.

Your opinion is that its totally irresponsible, an opinion you're quite entitled to, and I neither agree or disagree - I'm on the fence right now.

Why is it totally irresponsible?
Is nature in itself totally irresponsible also? The most common age for a Filly to have her first foal in a wild herd is 3 years old, some even have their first at 2 years+ as filly's can become pregnant as soon as they start having regular seasons at around 18 months of age.
Nature suggest they are more than capable of having first foals at age 3, but we as the species that has domesticated them, have decided that nature got it horribly wrong.

Or have we got it wrong the other way, we liken our young horses to our children and therefore see them as babies?
 
I too have a WBxTB filly which I am not backing until she's four (she's presently 3, standing 16.2 and starting to filll out now); but I wouldn't have covered her last year, even if I'd wanted to.

My reasoning is, she's still growing both mentally and physically. Her growth plates will not have hardened completely and her frame is not fully filled out. Right now I want all the nutritional support I provide her with going into her - not to a developing foetus and then subsequently nursing a foal at foot for 5 or 6 months.

I'm not sure mine's mentally mature to cope with a foal yet, either. Maybe alot depends upon the breed and/or individual's temperament, but a nursing dam need to be patient and stand around a lot to let their foal feed properly, and my young filly is still too inmature and sharp for me to imagine she would make the best "Mum" for any foal right now.

Why is it totally irresponsible?
Is nature in itself totally irresponsible also? The most common age for a Filly to have her first foal in a wild herd is 3 years old, some even have their first at 2 years+ as filly's can become pregnant as soon as they start having regular seasons at around 18 months of age.
Nature suggest they are more than capable of having first foals at age 3, but we as the species that has domesticated them, have decided that nature got it horribly wrong.
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I think this response is given because there are already SO many horses bred. So many neglected. So many slaughtered each year. And unless there is a very good reason to breed another, then it's preferred that it isn't done. If you're just trying to 'fill the gap' until your filly is ready to back by breeding a foal to give her something to do, it mightn't be the best reason. No?
 
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Now this is a difficult one because I see everyone's point of view. It does depend on how physically mature your filly is- well grown etc. Her joints will not fully form until she is almost 4 in any case and putting any excess strain on them may well cause her growth or soundness to be compromised. As you have pointed out- "in the wild" she'd be in foal by now but feral horses tend to mature much quicker- that's why you don't get flocks of feral hanovarians roaming the countryside. Also, feral horses (I don't like to use the term wild unless talking about mongolians or summink) don't live very long so any problems that it causes don't have time to manifest themselves. I think it would be foolish to potentially compromise your filly's future soundness.
 
Well it sounds as if you've made your decision. If you look at any 2 year old and know what you're looking at, you will see they are immature. Warmbloods are about as far removed from a wild horse as you get. They are often slow to mature as they grow quite big. Also, wild horses have generally a much shorter life span than domesticated horses. I think we owe it to our horses to do the best by them, not just what we can get away with.
 
Horses are no longer living naturally, where instinct tells them to breed young, and they are also likely to die young.

I don't think it is a good idea to put a 2 year old in foal, as I agree with the opinions that the filly still needs to mature. Many many people do do this though.

Why do you not want to train her until she is 4? maybe for the same reasons many don't want to breed until that age perhaps? (Not having a go, just curious)
 
I can seem to find any scientific research about it, however I do remember reading about a study from a breeding book once. It stated that in a study of 137 fillies under the age of 3 running with stallions....about 70% of the fillies became pregnant. About 45%-50% of those pregnancies were lost by about 160 days gestation.

The fillies were unable to support the needs of a growing foetus, and pregnancy at a young age can jeopardize the health of the foal and the mare. Although it does not state where to find this study, the conditions of the horses, grazing etc. A filly may reach sexual maturity at about 18/24 months, and yes in the wild they may have become pregnant at 2, this does not mean that they were successful and many pregnancies would have failed, probably causing much trauma and health problems for the mare. They obviously also do not live for as long in the wild as they do domesticated, and so it is in their nature to try to breed as often as they can from as soon as they are sexually mature.

I have also read from some breeding books that it can stunt the growth of the mare. I would wait until she has matured, be that another year or even longer. Who knows, circumstances may change and your daughter may not be able to ride for a while which may open a window for breeding.
 
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a friend of mine put her mare in foal at the grand old age of 18, she had a super foal and went on to have another fine filly the following year- isnt even this preferable to putting a youngster in foal at the very start of her adult life?
 
fumanchu said:
is your pony wild?

have you read the BHS's stance on breeding?
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No I haven't read it, but I will take a look as I'm sure its full of good advice.

and no of course my horse isnt' a wild pony, I was just questioning nature itself and the opinion of some that we see our young horses as babies and not young horses.

I also see through research on the internet that its common throughout Europe for breeders to start at age 2, we in the UK differ in this and tend to start at age 3.
This again raises a similar question to the has nature got it wrong.
Are they wrong or is the UK wrong?

I can't remember who said looks like you've made your mind up - not at all.
If I had done that, I wouldn't have posted here looking for advice.

I am a very common sense kind of person, someone who spent years studying science, so I tend to think logically and scientifically and not emotionally, well most of the time anyway.
I'm also a Mum, so yeah sometimes the emotions block the logical part of my brain.

I do think the general notion of oh no they are just babies is an emotional response to this issue, and in general it is a subject that does provoke strong responses, from both sides I may add looking at threads on this forum from months and even years back - I've just discovered them !!

I am going to ask my vet, I would be very interested to know what he thinks.
 
Also meant to say, if you do think about breeding, please only do so because the mare is of good breeding, conformation, temperament etc etc. There are too many people breeding "just because" at the moment, and I hope soon we can phase that out.
 
A friend runs a small stud breeding riding ponies/SHP's and section B's. She has put a young mare to the stallion this year who I *think* is only 2 (but she could be 3, I'm not quite sure). However, this mare is well developed and mature for her age, and is probably destined to spend her life as a broodmare anyway.

Before you all shout and scream about how people shouldn't be breeding, my friend has bred a number of top class show ponies and some very good racing ponies, and one of her home bred stallions was invited to stand at a well respected stud this season. So she is breeding quality.

Warmbloods, however, I would say are a different kettle of fish. They are known to be slow maturing and are well known for their myriad of joint and limb problems. I'm not sure that it is necessarily the best idea to add the challenge of growing and feeding a foal into the mix.

Perhaps it won't do her any harm, per se, but it will probably affect her growth in some way. Whether this will be noticeable or not I don't know.
 
heather_bambi said:
I can seem to find any scientific research about it, however I do remember reading about a study from a breeding book once. It stated that in a study of 137 fillies under the age of 3 running with stallions....about 70% of the fillies became pregnant. About 45%-50% of those pregnancies were lost by about 160 days gestation.

The fillies were unable to support the needs of a growing foetus, and pregnancy at a young age can jeopardize the health of the foal and the mare. Although it does not state where to find this study, the conditions of the horses, grazing etc. A filly may reach sexual maturity at about 18/24 months, and yes in the wild they may have become pregnant at 2, this does not mean that they were successful and many pregnancies would have failed, probably causing much trauma and health problems for the mare. They obviously also do not live for as long in the wild as they do domesticated, and so it is in their nature to try to breed as often as they can from as soon as they are sexually mature.

I have also read from some breeding books that it can stunt the growth of the mare. I would wait until she has matured, be that another year or even longer. Who knows, circumstances may change and your daughter may not be able to ride for a while which may open a window for breeding.
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This is exactly the kind of imformation I would like to find, basically something that looks at real facts, but you're right, there seems to be little out there x
 
my friend had accidently had a 2 year old covered and foaled at 3..im not saying its wrong or right heres a few pics of them..she is TB/QH
fillyandcolt097.jpg

fillyandcolt065.jpg

she foaled naturally outside and was a great mum,she was broken as soon as the foal was sold and now a lovely rideable horse
 
I have also read from some breeding books that it can stunt the growth of the mare.
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Yes, this is true I believe. It was suggested to me last year (by a number of 'knowledgeable' people), that I put my filly into foal for this very reason. I'm 5'1" and bred my filly from my 15.1 mare (also bred by me), expecting her to make 15.3 tops. She was also my mare's first and only foal - so was SUPPOSED to be 'small'... but when she hit 16.1 as a 2 year old and obviously still had a way to grow, putting her in foal was suggested by two or three different people. To 'stunt' her growing taller. Needless to say, that wasn't taken seriously by me.... Rather, I'm going to invest in a tall mounting block and pray I can always find a handy gate to climb on if I need to dismount out on a ride!!! LOL.
 
Donkeymad said:
Horses are no longer living naturally, where instinct tells them to breed young, and they are also likely to die young.

I don't think it is a good idea to put a 2 year old in foal, as I agree with the opinions that the filly still needs to mature. Many many people do do this though.

Why do you not want to train her until she is 4? maybe for the same reasons many don't want to breed until that age perhaps? (Not having a go, just curious)
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Just getting to your question:
My only reason for not backing her until 4 is I will have to continue her education once professionally backed, and once I am happy with her, my daughter will then go on to ride her - the following year will be better for both my daughter and I. It has nothing to do with her horse, she will most definitely be ready for backing next spring.
 
I'm in the 'absolutely no way' camp.

Main reasons for this are

a) she's not finished growing herself yet, and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that fillies who foal at 3 suffer for it later.

b) she's not proven - at 2 you can't say for certain that she'll be a good ridden horse, and if she has any traits under saddle that you wouldn't want passed on then you've already produced another potentially duff horse

c) breeding horses is risky. I don't know why someone would want to risk losing the mare before she's even had the opportunity to do anything, for no real purpose.

d) people shouldn't breed horses just because they can. Breeding should be based on having a mare with good confirmation and a good attitude, who has gone and done a job, being matched to a suitable stallion, or non-ridden mares being bred by experienced, knowledgable breeders who are happy to deal with the risks of 'gambling' on proven lines against the rewards it might yield.
 
Agree with allowing the horse to mature further prior to breeding from them.In wild they may breed young but they are not then ridden so not the same lifestyle to compare to really
After buying a 4 yr old who had been put in foal at 2 and retired due to joint problems by 6yrs old I will not even look at ones that have bred a foal so young. Obviously can't say for definite if the early breeding caused/aggrivated problem but tbh I personally think it did.
We bought our warmblood when she was 6 and she looked young then the next year she had filled out and had just grown up more so personally would thinks it sensible to wait.
Must admit if you say nature got it right and we are comparing them to our children nature then decided that my daughter could get pregnant at 11/12(freaks at the thought!).Tho I do see where you are coming from with that thought.
 
haycroft said:
my friend had accidently had a 2 year old covered and foaled at 3..im not saying its wrong or right heres a few pics of them..she is TB/QH
fillyandcolt097.jpg

fillyandcolt065.jpg

she foaled naturally outside and was a great mum,she was broken as soon as the foal was sold and now a lovely rideable horse
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What a gorgeous little foal, and the Mum looks to be in good condition.
I have to say, Mum doesn't look like a baby to me, the foal does though !! x
 
missyme10 said:
What a gorgeous little foal, and the Mum looks to be in good condition.
I have to say, Mum doesn't look like a baby to me, the foal does though !! x
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this is a pic when she was in foal..

100_0898.jpg


these were taken about 2 years ago...she was tiny herself when born as she was one of twins..good feeding and care,my friend still has her and the sire who has now been gelded as he was only a 2 year old..accidents happen!!
 
Megan2006 said:
I'm in the 'absolutely no way' camp.

Main reasons for this are

a) she's not finished growing herself yet, and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to demonstrate that fillies who foal at 3 suffer for it later.

b) she's not proven - at 2 you can't say for certain that she'll be a good ridden horse, and if she has any traits under saddle that you wouldn't want passed on then you've already produced another potentially duff horse

c) breeding horses is risky. I don't know why someone would want to risk losing the mare before she's even had the opportunity to do anything, for no real purpose.

d) people shouldn't breed horses just because they can. Breeding should be based on having a mare with good confirmation and a good attitude, who has gone and done a job, being matched to a suitable stallion, or non-ridden mares being bred by experienced, knowledgable breeders who are happy to deal with the risks of 'gambling' on proven lines against the rewards it might yield.
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.
In point a you mention evidence - again this is what I'm looking for?

Point d - firstly my mare does have good conformation and a good attitude, but no she's not done a job yet, ie. proved herself on the competition circuit.
You mention non ridden mare bieng bred by experienced knowledgable breeders, it is exactly this kind of person who has suggested putting my mare in foal. I keep our horses at a stud, so she'd be covered and foaled there.
Also, I think its very common for mares that have never been backed let alone seen the inside of a competition arena to be used as broodmares by breeders...................ie. not proven, but are from good blood lines.
 
I have a rising 2 year old filly and was asked if I wanted her to go to the stallion when he came to the yard a while back. My response was a resounding NO THANKS


My reasoning is that she is still a baby mentally and is still growing. If I were to have her put in foal then I feel that all her energies would be put to growing a foal and not growing herself (if that makes sense)

If I ever breed from her and its a big if then it won't be until she is at least 7 or 8 and any foal would be for my own personal use and not to sell on


No scientific facts and figures I'm afraid - just my own personal opinion
 
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