Putting a mare in foal at 2

Haycroft,

I have to say, your friends mare doesn't look like a baby when she's heavily pregnant and looks to be in good condition, she looks good after having her foal, her foal looks good.

What I dont see is a hard done to mare, who's been sucked dry of nutrition and left a bag of bones because her baby took all the goodness.

From what you say also, good nutrition is very important, more so than an older mare x
 
for chrissake- why the need for "evidence" and scientific jargon? surely common sense should tell you something, or i guess your filly is just a commodity?you seem determined to go ahead so go ahead and good luck to your young girl!
 
This is the way I look at it, you are not comfortable riding her at the age of two, so why is putting her in foal any different? You don't ride them at this age because they are both physically and mentally not mature enough to cope with the extra strain and weight on their muscles and joints. Carrying a foal is alot of weight for the mare to cope with. I'm sure you would feel sick that when you would start backing her she couldn't cope due to joint/muscle damage. Common sense should be kicking in.

You would be breeding her for the sake of it. Although it would be lovely to have a little foal to bring on and produce, is it really worth risking the mares health?

Maybe what you should do in the mean time is if you feel she's doing nothing, start taking her out on some inhand walks, get her seeing the world, etc. So then backing will probably be abit easier :).
 
I personnally wouldnt do it but a friend did buy a 3 yr old IDxTB that had had a foal, she did have wire mesh in her stomach though from a hernia, not sure if having the foal had anything to do with this?? She has never had a problem and the mare has successfully competed BD, BSJA and eventing. On the other hand my other friend has a very very well bred warmblood, she is 8 now, was lightly backed at 3 1/2 and had to be turned away and 'played' with as she was just so immature and 'backwards' and didnt really start coming together until she was 5 ish.
 
"separate emotional responses from logical ones"
Put mine in whichever camp makes you most happy, but from my point of view I cannot understand why a person who has any depth of equine knowledge would think that putting a filly in foal is a good shout.
My reasons have all been previously stated in this thread, when you speak so sensibly about continuing the mare's education before backing her it seems odd you would consider such a path.
 
Why are you looking for evidence against, rather than evidence for?

Why are you looking for solid facts to see that it could be bad for your youngster (thats what she is) to be bred from. Yet you don't seem bothered about there being facts to say that it won't be bad for her. I think you are looking at this the wrong way around.

And that pregnant mare does look like a baby, she's bum high ffs. She's ribby in all 3 photos, although not drastically so. And in the second photo with the foal, she looks like a complete baby and lacking condition. Does she look perky in that last photo of her? No!
 
Have you come on here to ask advice or start an argument/wind us up? I think the latter, as anyone with a shred of sense, proper, sound, horse-knowledge and moral scruples (for the mare and the resulting offspring) would not have even posted this in the first place!

Oh, and of course, it's a ridiculous idea...your mare could be **** under saddle.
 
I'm not so sure that it is as evil an idea as everyone on here seems to suggest - as you say they seem to do it a lot on the continent, and they are breeding some cracking sports horses.

I too am considering having a foal from my filly before she is backed - BUT I honestly believe that at 2 it wouldn't be in her best interests physically. For this reason I'm looking into embryo transfer. Expensive, but I have a superbly bred filly who gained an elite premium at the BEF futurity last year and who will be entered again this year as a yearling to be re-assessed.

If she does well again this year I think we will go ahead with ET next year as a 2 year old - we will be choosing the stallion extremely carefully and will be using AI.

Of course if you can afford the ET route, then it won't matter that your filly/mare is in work - she can be bred from at any point in her career can't she?
 
My friend has a welsh X mare who was 1st put into foal at 2, then again at 3. ( not by my friend i will add! She brought her as a 4 yr old, not long after 2nd foal) The mare is 11 now and is about a hand shorter than she was expected to grow. She's just 14.2hh, was expected to be at the very least 15.1hh. Her siblings we know are all around the 15.1/15.2hh mark. She also has a terrible back, still needs regular checks now but was out if work all through her 5th year, and another 8 months the following year. The vets at Avonvale (where she was referred to and spent much time there) put it down to how young she had her first foals & the strain it put on her back when she was still growing herself. She still isn't allowed to do much jumping/fast work now because of the strain on her back and can't carry as much weight as a horse her size & type should. She rejected both of her foals, i think 1 was bottle fed & one found a surrogate mare and she can't stand them to this day. She may just be that way inclined & still have been a terrible mother if she'd had none until now but it does make you wonder.

I'm not saying don't do it as that would be your decision and every mare is different, but you may need to consider how you would feel if your girl came out of it with heath issues. Would you be happy with a horse who could only do light work? She may get through it perfectly fine with a lovely, healthy foal but you need to look at it from all angles.

Personal opinion, i'd never breed from a horse that young, or consider buying one that i knew had.
 
rosiefronfelen said:
for chrissake- why the need for "evidence" and scientific jargon? surely common sense should tell you something, or i guess your filly is just a commodity?you seem determined to go ahead so go ahead and good luck to your young girl!
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I can assure you there is nothing wrong with my common sense, common sense dictates I seek the opinion of others on a subject I am not fully educated on, common sense also dictates I bring into question the fact that in wild herds this would be common place, common sense also dictates I look at the evidence when making a decision.
I do not see my young horses as little baby's, she's a young horse, who I know well.
Common sense also dictates I seek the opinion of my vet !

As for my filly being just a commodity, you have no idea what my horses are to me or what relationship I have with them.
I've a next to useless pony that I've stuck with for 4 years, who'll always be next to usless, and how many folk who frown on a 2 year old being put into foal would have given up on her or dumped her on a dealers truck by now?
I personally dont know many that would have stuck it out for the last 4 years when they dont own their land and she actually costs money to keep and prevents me having another horse I actually want !
So I'm hardly someone who treats their horses as a commodity, if they were that, I wouldn't be wearing primark clothing whilst my horses have the best bloody rugs !
 
I hate to be blunt, but your arguing that nature knows best and well, I dont know how old your daughter is but if, for example, she started her periods at 11 would you accept it was okay for her to start a sex life at that age and be pregnant by 12 or 13? Im guessing not.

But 'nature' declares when a young girls body becomes sexually mature and centuries ago girls were married and bearing children from 13 years old, but that doesnt make it right these days does it. People know better. And the lives of young girls are better for this practice being out lawed! Same with young horses. Both young girls and young fillies can become pregnant when nature kicks in - but it doesn't mean its right does it. Common sense tells you that.
 
brighteyes said:
Have you come on here to ask advice or start an argument/wind us up? I think the latter, as anyone with a shred of sense, proper, sound, horse-knowledge and moral scruples (for the mare and the resulting offspring) would not have even posted this in the first place!

Oh, and of course, it's a ridiculous idea...your mare could be **** under saddle.
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Ok so because I want to seek out facts and have asked for opinions, I am therefore looking to start an arugument/wind u up?
I can only presume that anyone who doesn't agree with your line of thinking will be viewed in the same light, or anyone who would question this subject in anyway - I state this as I have clearly said on more than one occassion I am not fully educated on the issue of breeding - HENCE SEEKING THE OPINION OF OTHERS !!

Obviously the thought of putting a mare at 2 into foal winds u up - your opinion is noted!
You are entitled to your opinion, as am i - Which is currently not yet formed !
Again I explain, I am scientific minded, hence look at facts, not emotional responses.

I actually knew when posting this it would provoke some very strong responses, but I wish people could actually read, and respect that fact that others have differing opinions.
 
i have alot of experience with breeding and think 2 is just too young!! you say that in the wild she would already be in foal but she's not in the wild!! your mare should be aloud to develop and mature before reproducing!
 
You seem to want science which proves it is ok to do it though, that's why i don't believe you. 90% of people have said it's a stupid, selfish idea. Yet you are still desperately seeking 'evidence' that it is ok. You are ignoring the 'common sense' answers about WHY it is not the same as in the wild, yet are desperately sticking by your original statement that it happens in the wild so why is it not ok. You are saying you are scientific and have common sense, but i've not seen any.
 
missyme10 said:
Ok so because I want to seek out facts and have asked for opinions, I am therefore looking to start an arugument/wind u up?
I can only presume that anyone who doesn't agree with your line of thinking will be viewed in the same light, or anyone who would question this subject in anyway - I state this as I have clearly said on more than one occassion I am not fully educated on the issue of breeding - HENCE SEEKING THE OPINION OF OTHERS !!

Obviously the thought of putting a mare at 2 into foal winds u up - your opinion is noted!
You are entitled to your opinion, as am i - Which is currently not yet formed !
Again I explain, I am scientific minded, hence look at facts, not emotional responses.

I actually knew when posting this it would provoke some very strong responses, but I wish people could actually read, and respect that fact that others have differing opinions.
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If you read the thread as a whole I'm sure you will agree the feeling is that putting a 2yo in foal isn't a wise idea, and bearing in mind you wanted opinions, I think you have been successful. There have been some very well made points on this thread, and perhaps the lack of "evidence" you so urgently want suggests that putting a 2yo in foal is not something that has been done very often...
 
cullord said:
I hate to be blunt, but your arguing that nature knows best and well, I dont know how old your daughter is but if, for example, she started her periods at 11 would you accept it was okay for her to start a sex life at that age and be pregnant by 12 or 13? Im guessing not.

But 'nature' declares when a young girls body becomes sexually mature and centuries ago girls were married and bearing children from 13 years old, but that doesnt make it right these days does it. People know better. And the lives of young girls are better for this practice being out lawed! Same with young horses. Both young girls and young fillies can become pregnant when nature kicks in - but it doesn't mean its right does it. Common sense tells you that.
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No I am simply being open minded and looking at a very sensitive issue from every angle.
You know my initial response is oh no way, but when challenged why, I couldn't answer the question, apart from she's to young and the reply I got was, the whole of Europe does it, the UK is the exception.

As for my 12/13 year old daughter - I dont even want to think about that ! But you make a very valid point, our kids are sexually mature as they hit their teens, but we wouldn't think it was right for them to have babies at 13.

I dont know why people can't express their opinion in a polite manner and respect their are other opinions, arguments that are not in line with theirs, its called debate..............
 
I decided when first reading this not to get involved as it is and has got heated but without getting ops back up and purely my opinion, I just cant see what is going to be gained by putting an immature horse in foal at such a young age. All I can see is possible future damage to what is said to be a very well bred mare with a future. For the sake of a year, is it really worth it.
 
cullord said:
I hate to be blunt, but your arguing that nature knows best and well, I dont know how old your daughter is but if, for example, she started her periods at 11 would you accept it was okay for her to start a sex life at that age and be pregnant by 12 or 13? Im guessing not.

But 'nature' declares when a young girls body becomes sexually mature and centuries ago girls were married and bearing children from 13 years old, but that doesnt make it right these days does it. People know better. And the lives of young girls are better for this practice being out lawed! Same with young horses. Both young girls and young fillies can become pregnant when nature kicks in - but it doesn't mean its right does it. Common sense tells you that.
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I think this is a very well made point.
I also hate the whole "breeding because you can" there are so many badly put together horses, dogs and humans(!) just because one can procreate doesn't mean it is something that needs to be done.
I would urge you to think about the mare, how this will affect her and how her status is a domesticated horse, and not a wild one.
 
missyme10 said:
I can assure you there is nothing wrong with my common sense, common sense dictates I seek the opinion of others on a subject I am not fully educated on, common sense also dictates I bring into question the fact that in wild herds this would be common place, common sense also dictates I look at the evidence when making a decision.
I do not see my young horses as little baby's, she's a young horse, who I know well.
Common sense also dictates I seek the opinion of my vet !

As for my filly being just a commodity, you have no idea what my horses are to me or what relationship I have with them.
I've a next to useless pony that I've stuck with for 4 years, who'll always be next to usless, and how many folk who frown on a 2 year old being put into foal would have given up on her or dumped her on a dealers truck by now?
I personally dont know many that would have stuck it out for the last 4 years when they dont own their land and she actually costs money to keep and prevents me having another horse I actually want !
So I'm hardly someone who treats their horses as a commodity, if they were that, I wouldn't be wearing primark clothing whilst my horses have the best bloody rugs !
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Maybe it was out of an unproven 2yo? If it wasn't, it's even more reason not to breed off your mare.
 
somethingorother said:
You seem to want science which proves it is ok to do it though, that's why i don't believe you. 90% of people have said it's a stupid, selfish idea. Yet you are still desperately seeking 'evidence' that it is ok. You are ignoring the 'common sense' answers about WHY it is not the same as in the wild, yet are desperately sticking by your original statement that it happens in the wild so why is it not ok. You are saying you are scientific and have common sense, but i've not seen any.
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No, I would like to know the facts - simple as that.
and I mean FACTS - ie the one study quoted in this thread is based on fact not opinion born from an emotional response. In the case of that study, it would suggest breeding from a 2 year old is not a good idea.
There has to be more factual information on the subject.

Breeders in Holland commonly start breeding at 2 years old........................
I mentioned this earlier, are they wrong or are we wrong................do they think we've got it wrong?
I'd be interested to see where those horses are by age 6 say, maybe there is information out there on the issue.

I can assure u all that breeders who start at age 2 will think those against it are talking complete and utter rubbish, and will probably present some good arguments, as can the case against.

Maybe I appear to be looking for a case against as each point I argue against is on one side of the argument.
If there were folk posting that they do it and its rubbish it has any affect on the mare, I'd prob be saying ahh yeah but what about pressure to joints etc.
 
I think that one of the reasons that there has not been many studies, have been because there are so many factors that could affect the results. i.e. husbandry, breed, future usage, grazing, environmental conditions etc. I cannot think of any way in which all of the factors can be controlled whist having enough money to fund the numbers of horses that would be required, of varying breeds etc, not to mention the costs of x-rays, MRI's etc to determine whether having a foal at 2 years old has in fact had any detrimental affect on joints (although how would you know if it was the foals fault or what would have happened to the mare even if you had not put her in foal, unless you had a time machine:)).

I personally would not breed at 2 years old, and maybe not even at 3 as some breeds take longer to mature. I can see where you are coming from and have spent ages trying to find anything about it, but have not succeeded apart from that brief study in a book.
 
I cant believe this, who ever the OP is do you just want to profligate form your very young mare, who is not proven, not even broken in. You have quite obviously never heard of responsible breeding. In the wild its all about survival and numbers, foals bred in the wild are lucky to even get to be youngsters, they can be killed by preditors lack of nutrition and bad parenthood. You dont live in the wild as far as I know, so you are in a position to make sure that a young filly does not get covered, and mature into a horse that can prove herselfto be worth breeding from.
 
But if you don't breed her at 2, will any harm be done? No. She will grow stronger. And if she doesn't grow stronger from 2 years old, there's something very wrong with her and you shouldn't be breeding from her anyway.

If you do breed her at 2, then harm may be done. In my opinion, anyone who cared about their horse would want to minimise the risks and give them the best chance of staying sound for the rest of their lives.

On the continent, in many places it is also the norm for them to hardly ever turn their horses out. Does this make them right? When so many have stress related 'vices'.
 
Right its bed time!

Thank you all for your responses, you have given me a lot to think about.


I have taken the general perception as its not a good idea, with the general opinion that it could damage my mare or prevent her maturing correctly.

I will discuss this with my vet - who I think will know the scientific fact I seek.
He will either say, haha what utter rubbish, or well of course it will damage her, she's only 2 !!


Thanks again, I'm sure someone will ask again in the future lol x
 
Id also like to say that horses living wild and free in herds 'in the wild', arent ridden and expected to live a long and fruitful lives being utilised daily by humans. I think the needs in the early development between the 2 types of horse would be significant. One requires a significantly stronger bone and musculature development than the other, whilst the others role is to produce as many healthy offspring as she can, as quickly as she can, as her lifespan is predicatably shorter living wild. Just my theory on the subject.
 
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pastie2 said:
I cant believe this, who ever the OP is do you just want to profligate form your very young mare, who is not proven, not even broken in. You have quite obviously never heard of responsible breeding. In the wild its all about survival and numbers, foals bred in the wild are lucky to even get to be youngsters, they can be killed by preditors lack of nutrition and bad parenthood. You dont live in the wild as far as I know, so you are in a position to make sure that a young filly does not get covered, and mature into a horse that can prove herselfto be worth breeding from.
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This may seem very rude, but did you actually read my original post properly?
QUOTE: have never heard of responsible breeding...........................................Why do you think I posted? I am not a Breeder, and it is a breeder who suggested I put my mare in foal ! So I came on here to ask opinions, with a particular emphasis on fact.
Ie. If someone states breeding at 2 stunts a horses growth...........where is the study supporting such a statement.

As for not proven or broken - sorry but most of your broodmares for warmbloods and sports horses have never seen a blooming saddle in their lives, let alone a competition arena, how many of you have the offspring of such sports horses I wonder ?

As for preventing pregnancy until she can prove herself worth breeding from? That very much depends on the reason for breeding, many a horse lover breeds from a well loved mare for themselves, no one has the right to say their mare isn't worth breeding from.

To sell, yes its a different matter, as responsible breeding of a foal you dont plan to keep dictates you should breed quality. In the case of my mare, I dont think quality will be lacking.
 
cullord said:
Id also like to say that horses living wild and free in herds 'in the wild', arent ridden and expected to live a long and fruitful lives being utilised daily by humans. I think the needs in the early development between the 2 types of horse would be significant. One requires a significantly stronger bone and musculature development than the other, whilst the others role is to produce as many healthy offspring as she can, as quickly as she can, as her lifespan is predicatably shorter living wild. Just my theory on the subject.
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Ditto this. Just had really interesting disscussion with OH about why does it matter if a broodmare has stunted growth in the wild if she produces offspring. Forfilling natures design etc. Secondly on the humanisation of animals if a 14 yr old girl was not constrained by society is she really not prepared to be a mother on the same level as an animal (very philosophical) and luckily we do have society so we can have time to 'mature' first. But still deep philosophical talk. god bless horse and hound and wine.
 
somethingorother said:
But if you don't breed her at 2, will any harm be done? No. She will grow stronger. And if she doesn't grow stronger from 2 years old, there's something very wrong with her and you shouldn't be breeding from her anyway.

If you do breed her at 2, then harm may be done. In my opinion, anyone who cared about their horse would want to minimise the risks and give them the best chance of staying sound for the rest of their lives.

On the continent, in many places it is also the norm for them to hardly ever turn their horses out. Does this make them right? When so many have stress related 'vices'.
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I think you hit the nail on the head there, ie harm to the mare.
Thats really the issue here, does putting a 2 year old into foal cause the mare harm.

Of course it will not harm her to leave her another year, its also not an issue to just let her grow up.

But if the FACT was no harm would come to her putting her in foal at age 2, then I see no reason not to.

So we're back to fact searching, I see a lot of no its wrong, but very little to substantiate those statements.

Here's where I wish folk could really read: Its not that I disagree with the general opinion on here, I neither agree or disagree, but I am again back to come on, substantiate your opinion, show me the evidence that says putting a mare in foal at 2 causes her harm.
Show me the evidence that it doesn't for that matter !!!!!

The fact is, I dont think anyone can show either way, so its really down to opinion, and most of European breeders and horsey folk just wouldn't agree with this line of thinking.

I'm still sat on the fence, its getting rather uncomfortable now, probably why I couldn't sleep earlier when I went to bed ha ha x
 
somethingorother said:
I have never seen a 2 year old that looks anything but babyish.
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This filly (Quarab) turned two on June 4th this year, I know that because I bred her.
She could easily be mistaken, physically, for an older mare.

b6ec20a5.jpg


I, personally, wouldn't breed my own horses at that age,
a) because if I owned a two year old filly it would have been sired by my horse, and
b) because I don't need to, I have mature mares if I choose to breed.

I think there can be a huge physical difference between a filly just turned 2 and a filly rising 3, both are still in their 2nd year. Many people I know breed their fillies at 2 here and they will almost always be under saddle by 3 years old.
 
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Enfys: She's lovely, and you're right, she doesn't look a baby at all.

When you say many breed at 2 here.......where is here?

If common practice where you are, do you know if there is a much higher risk with breeding at 2 to the mare?
I think maturity of the mare plays a large part, and the care that follows.

One thing I do want to say, the breeders who have suggested this, aren't suggesting that all 2 year olds could be put into foal, they say it depends on the maturity of the mare. That some are physically and mentally mature enough, and therefore you could if you wanted to and the mare would be at no greater risk than age 3+.
 
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