Putting a mare in foal at 2

i dont know much about breeding and would tend to say no at 2 but each horse is different matures at different rates from the next so some at 2 may well be ready to breed from others not
if you are not planning on backing her till she is 4 why not wait another year and put her in foal as a 3yo? that way she will have the foal at 4 & weaned later that year and then back and ride her away?
 
OP, I quite clearly stated anecdotal evidence in my post - look up the meaning of anecdotal, I'm not going to be giving you published studies.

You also stated that experienced breeders had suggested the idea to you, but you've conveniently skipped out the bit about them being able to deal with the consequences if it doesn't work out. What will you do if you manage to get the filly through pregnancy and birth, and then the foal is turns out to be unsuitable as a ridden horse 4 years down the line? That is a possibility here, so you must know what you'd be able to do in this situation.

You keep banging on about scientific evidence, and I have to say I'm not sure why you need evidence to show you that it does do harm - surely you care enough for your horse to look for evidence to say that it doesn't do any harm? Of which you'll find none.
 
odd1 said:
i dont know much about breeding and would tend to say no at 2 but each horse is different matures at different rates from the next so some at 2 may well be ready to breed from others not
if you are not planning on backing her till she is 4 why not wait another year and put her in foal as a 3yo? that way she will have the foal at 4 & weaned later that year and then back and ride her away?
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Quite simple, she wouldn't be backed until 5 if I put her in foal at 3.
Foal would be born summer, weaned end of year......so into winter.
Would then be spring when backed, ie when she turns 5.

Whereas if she had foal at 3, weaned end of year, 6 months rest, and then backed in the spring as turned 4.

I would only do it if I was satisfied that there was no additional risk to my mare.
Hence the post x
 
Megan2006 said:
OP, I quite clearly stated anecdotal evidence in my post - look up the meaning of anecdotal, I'm not going to be giving you published studies.

You also stated that experienced breeders had suggested the idea to you, but you've conveniently skipped out the bit about them being able to deal with the consequences if it doesn't work out. What will you do if you manage to get the filly through pregnancy and birth, and then the foal is turns out to be unsuitable as a ridden horse 4 years down the line? That is a possibility here, so you must know what you'd be able to do in this situation.

You keep banging on about scientific evidence, and I have to say I'm not sure why you need evidence to show you that it does do harm - surely you care enough for your horse to look for evidence to say that it doesn't do any harm? Of which you'll find none.
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Then there is equally anecdotal evidence it doesn't cause harm...........that be the ponies who are brill with no problems I know who foaled at 3!! No science there!
So that really works both way, hence asking about factual studies.

As for I've conveniently skipped out the big about them being able to deal with the consequences if it doesn't work out...................do you want to explain how they would deal with a 4 year old they have bred that ends up with problems when it will have been sold 3 1/2 years prior to that !!
This could be said of an foal bred and then sold, so this really isn't a valid argument specific to breeding at 2.

This point goes more into the notion of breeding at all, which isn't what I asked.
 
Its not about them looking mature- the important parts are the ones you cannot see with your naked eye.

the growth plates have not closed hence people don't recommend backing horses that young.
this is because the extra weight is a strain on unformed joints and weak soft tissues.

a foetus in the later stages of pregnancy will weigh more than the average human so you are putting the joints under strain.

to argue that you can physically get a young filly in foal therefore it must be ok doesn't make sense.

you could get some 11yro children pregnant if they start cycling early- thinking of them as young humans instead of your children, is there any difference between that and a 2yro mare?
 
foaling is risky enough in older experienced mares, why would you choose to increase your risk of injury to the filly or the foal?

best case scenario you end up with a small foal and stunted mare, worst case you loose both...
 
I can't see any benefits to putting such a young horse in foal.

Each to their own, I suppose - and the risks are your own. But not a route I would go down.
 
millitiger said:
Its not about them looking mature- the important parts are the ones you cannot see with your naked eye.

the growth plates have not closed hence people don't recommend backing horses that young.
this is because the extra weight is a strain on unformed joints and weak soft tissues.

a foetus in the later stages of pregnancy will weigh more than the average human so you are putting the joints under strain.

to argue that you can physically get a young filly in foal therefore it must be ok doesn't make sense.

you could get some 11yro children pregnant if they start cycling early- thinking of them as young humans instead of your children, is there any difference between that and a 2yro mare?
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I dont know, hence asking the question.
Should we be comparing horses to humans?
I've asked this question as breeders all over the world breed from age 2, it is therefore perfectly logical to question why it is deemed wrong in the UK.
Also logical to question the nature side of things, why not?
The argument on this point about teenage kids, I can see where folk are coming from, but we aren't talking about humans here, we are talking about horses, who live in fields, not in houses and go to school !

It doesn't matter how many times I state I neither am against it or condone, by questioning peoples reasons, which I will do especially when there is no logical argument behind it, it is presumed I think its right.

I think there has been quite a few very logical arguments against it posted here, you yourself make some regarding unformed joints, but I have also read some complete and utter rubbish with no logic behind it at all.
 
Hi. My mare was in foal at 2 - not intentionally as I brought her from Ireland and didn't know she was pregnant. I was incredibly worried about her being so young and I had very little knowledge of having a foal.

Have to say my vet wasn't duly concerned about her age - the bigger worry being we had no idea what the father was therefore no idea what size of foal she'd have. Although I think i'd misunderstood him at the time as i believe the size of the mares uterus determines the size of the foal. The mare is 14.2 and my foal turned out to be about 13.2.

The mares sire was 14.3 and her mum 14hh and she finally made 14.1 so I don't think its stunted her growth as such but I was really surprised the extent to which she had a growing spurt between the age of 3 and 4 - while nursing a very greedy foal. It was a fine balance between cramming her with enough feed to allow her to grow while not making the milk super rich for the foal.

Despite it being a good outcome I definitely WOULD NOT advocate anybody doing it deliberately. I genuinely think I was incredibly lucky in that my mare is super sensible and coped mentally with having a foal early but also because she comes from a long line or working travellers and not from selective warmblood breeding (sorry I'm not explaining the difference very well).

I also think the comments about your mare being unproven is pretty valid. Personally if your hoping to breed a competition horse either to sell on or for your daughter to 'move onto' you'd be better to go and buy a foal from proven competition stock - at least you can see what you'd be getting :D

TBH I think you should spend some time speaking to breeders who deal with foals annually or the Mare and Foal Sanctuary who give out fantastic information and who are non biased with real, hands on facts rather than pure scientific ones.
 
The mare I ride was bought from a ISH dealer in the UK as a just backed 3/4 year old. She had already had a foal in Ireland.

It doesn't seem to have had any ill effects (she is now 9), she has/is having a successful career eventing with a semi professional and now taking her owner through the grades. She is also a good 16.3hh so I don't think she was stunted from having a foal that early. Personality wise she acts very immature (think can't stand still when tied up, wants to play with you in the field, likes to pick up brushes etc) so I hate to think what she was like at 2!
 
This is the thing Minxie, this suggestion and advice has come from breeders !
So do I believe the opinion of breeders who state yes its been uncommon to breed at age 2 in the UK, but it has been done for many years in the rest of Europe, and breeders are now stating to do it here also, or horse friends, or folk on Forums that have in most cases never actually bred a horse.......................................................................
 
Nicki85 said:
The mare I ride was bought from a ISH dealer in the UK as a just backed 3/4 year old. She had already had a foal in Ireland.

It doesn't seem to have had any ill effects (she is now 9), she has/is having a successful career eventing with a semi professional and now taking her owner through the grades. She is also a good 16.3hh so I don't think she was stunted from having a foal that early. Personality wise she acts very immature (think can't stand still when tied up, wants to play with you in the field, likes to pick up brushes etc) so I hate to think what she was like at 2!
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Aww she sounds quite cute.
I think there are more mares in the UK who had their first foals at 2 than people care to admit. Many will say oh there mare has this prob and that prob because of it, and it may well be true, but equally so there are those that have no problems at at like yourself x
 
My two pennyworth.

I know sometimes, stud vets recommend covering a late two year old, ie: in the latter part of that year so say July/August time when the filly herself, probably a large breed, is growing too quickly herself. Their theory behind it is if it slows down her growth for a while, then it will be to her benefit and the benefit of her system and limbs. It does not stunt her growth, it just slows it down and she will mature to her full size, just a bit later, that's all, it buys her time to mature properly especially in this day and age when people seem to want them working as four year olds far more than they should be.

It certainly wouldn't be my choice but something I'd have to look into if it was for that reason, it was for the long term benefit of the filly herself.
Also meant to add, they usually say to use a smaller stallion rather than the one you would normally use, so if the filly was an Irish Draught, you wouldn't use another Irish Draught on her as you want to make the pregnancy as easy as possible for her.
 
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Having recently purchased a lovely rising 4 year old irish cob who was put in foal at 18 months, I would say it is a totaly irresponsible and wrong thing to do. My mare has not benefited from having a baby when still a baby herself, she suffers anxiety as well as a lack of condition. I purchsed her broken but have turned her away physically she is fine but very out of condition her main and tail are brittle, her coat dull and eyes sunk. She is however with the help of Dr Green Grass improving no end, but I feel having a foal so young has done nothing but hinder her own growth in all ways.
I have personally bred a foal from a 5 year old who has kept her condition & suffers no ill effects, unlike the cob.
So in answer to weather it should be done if it was me then no way!
 
missyme10 said:
I dont know, hence asking the question.
Should we be comparing horses to humans?
I've asked this question as breeders all over the world breed from age 2, it is therefore perfectly logical to question why it is deemed wrong in the UK.
Also logical to question the nature side of things, why not?
The argument on this point about teenage kids, I can see where folk are coming from, but we aren't talking about humans here, we are talking about horses, who live in fields, not in houses and go to school !

It doesn't matter how many times I state I neither am against it or condone, by questioning peoples reasons, which I will do especially when there is no logical argument behind it, it is presumed I think its right.

I think there has been quite a few very logical arguments against it posted here, you yourself make some regarding unformed joints, but I have also read some complete and utter rubbish with no logic behind it at all.
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what is the difference between humans and horses though if we are speaking only about age and reproduction?
they are both animal species so no different to comparing horses and dogs.

you are the one making it emotional by taking about fields versus schools etc- i was talking purely about what was physically possible which is what you asked to be compared.

young girls in some countries are married off and pregnant at very young ages, the same way some people put young fillies in foal.
why would you be horrified at a pregnant 11yro girl but not a 2yro filly? what is the difference if we are talking purely scientific and not being emotional?
 
She is very cute-

28thMay116.jpg


This is her now :)

Unfortunately she is not mine, but I am lucky enough to share her!
 
millitiger said:
what is the difference between humans and horses though if we are speaking only about age and reproduction?
they are both animal species so no different to comparing horses and dogs.

you are the one making it emotional by taking about fields versus schools etc- i was talking purely about what was physically possible which is what you asked to be compared.

young girls in some countries are married off and pregnant at very young ages, the same way some people put young fillies in foal.
why would you be horrified at a pregnant 11yro girl but not a 2yro filly? what is the difference if we are talking purely scientific and not being emotional?
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You know I think the comparrison you make here really highlights my point, you say about in some countries young girls are married of and pregnant at a very young age.
Now we as a society deem this to be wrong and improper - yes?

Now lets take a look at their society, firstly they think this is perfectly normal, secondly they believe we are wrong in the way we allow our girls to grow up, do what they want, have as many sexual partners as they wish prior to marriage and then marry who they want - we think this is the right way - yes? Well I sure do anyway.

So now to the breeding issue, we in the UK as a general rule think that putting mares into foal at 2 is wrong, and the other European countries who do it are right.
Now lets look at them, they think its right what they are doing and think we are wrong.

So which is right and which is wrong............it really depends on who your asking doesn't it as to what answer you get.

Do you see my point?
We deem the actions of others in other countries to be wrong full stop, just because they are not in line with our own practices. But I think it is rather arrogant of a society who believes our ways are the correct ways and everyone else who isn't in line with that is wrong, rather than stopping to think well maybe they are just different and have different way and opinions.

The fact is, it is common practice in other countries to put mares in foal at 2, so it is therefore a valid argument that should be open to discussion x
 
well then YOU need to explore why you think it is wrong for young girls to get pregnant and why it does/doesn't apply to horses.

i think it shouldn't be done in horses because, as i stated, the growth plates aren't formed so the skeletal system is not fully developed and therefore is by definition weaker than an adult horse.

as for what society dictates is correct or not, as the UK has the highest underage pregnancy rate in Europe, maybe our society doesn't actually disagree with it?
 
I am gonna have to leave this now.

I have decided that this is not right for my mare, but I have done so I believe based on all the facts and logic.
This subject may have got a few hot under the collar, but if I am to make a decision, I want to do so for the right reasons, and you can only do this when fully informed.

I'm not a sheep, and make my own mind up on matters basically, and have probably said the word "why" more times in my life than any other word!!

Thank you all for your responses, I am now a lot more knowledgeable on breeding young horses x
 
if someone is breeding a foal from their own mare for them..... people do have the right to question that as I think it depends on whether they are capable of being responsible for that foal throughout its lifetime.

I am in the camp of regardless of the science behind it your mare is completely unproven and hence should not be bred from.
 
millitiger said:
as for what society dictates is correct or not, as the UK has the highest underage pregnancy rate in Europe, maybe our society doesn't actually disagree with it?
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Yes, because the countries that deem it natural for younger mothers don't come under European laws so they wouldn't have an 'underage' law anyway. If it is right for their society that's up to them; we shouldn't try and force European laws and standards onto non European countries just because Europe doesn't agree with it; it's none of our business TBH.
 
For what it's worth, I know of breeders who breed from 2yos. It's actually quite common in pony studs. But then they have experience and know the difference between a mature 2yo and an immature one.

Let's face it,TBs are often racing at that age....

What i don't agree with is breeding from a mare who is unregistered, or breeding heinz 57 varieties. They have little value and if you don't know the mare's breeding lines then you could be breeding anything into it, including health problems.

It's cheaper to BUY a foal than breed one properly.
 
You are right, there are not many papers (easily found) either stating that it si good or bad to put a horse in foal at 2. So far I dont think anyone has given you scientific proof either way whcih is what you wanted. this is the best I can do.

Although mares reach puberty when they are one year old they are not usually bred before the age of three years. Mitchell and Allen described that in 137 yearling fillies bred at pasture, 69% were found to be pregnant on the basis of palpation per rectum and assay for eCG; however, 46% of these fillies spontaneously lost the pregnancy before 160 days, and of foals carried to term, 35% were stillborn. These authors concluded that, although cyclic and fertile, these fillies were not mature enough to carry pregnancy to term. (Mitchell and Allen 1975)

Mares are not usually bred before the third year of age, due to the risk of compromising their body development; occasionally mares are bred or used as embryo donors at two years of age (Panzani, Rota, Pancini, Vannozzi and Camillo 2006)

These authors hypothesized that the high incidence of early fetal loss in these young mares was in some measure related to their immaturity, their greater nutritional requirements for growth and maintenance and the physical stresses imposed upon them by the husbandry procedures involved. Unfortunately this study was done before the introduction of reproductive ultrasonography in the equine species, and the pregnancy diagnoses were done only at day 40 leaving unknown the pregnancy rate per cycle and the early embryonic loss rate (Mitchell and Allen 1975)

Five of the eight fillies conceived during the first estrous cycle and the remaining three conceived during the second cycle. All fillies produced normal healthy foals and were rebred on the first or second estrous cycle postpartum. (Wilson, kraemer, potter, pipkin,1991)

Hope this helps!
 
i hope you stick to your decision as your fillies life comes first before your plans. i am no breeder but we have not long taken our 5 year old pacer to the stalion and being a big mare i thought she was old enough NOW to try and breed a foal. nothing is guanteed in this world and forming any sort of life is a gamble so please take heed of most of the posts on here and give her more time to develop, both mentally and physically.
 
Maesfen said:
Yes, because the countries that deem it natural for younger mothers don't come under European laws so they wouldn't have an 'underage' law anyway. If it is right for their society that's up to them; we shouldn't try and force European laws and standards onto non European countries just because Europe doesn't agree with it; it's none of our business TBH.
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i know, thats why i put European :)

and i do understand that most countries with young mothers don't come under Europe.

i was simply trying to highlight that GB has a supposedly similar take on young mothers as the rest of Europe but we have a much higher underage pregnancy rate than the majority so perhaps we aren't as 'civilised' as some people think?
 
I have read a number of studies over the years which corroborate the information given above, that although wild or feral fillies do reach sexual maturity around 18 months to 2 years, it is very rare for fillies to be bred at that age. Przewalski, brumby and mustang reports all conclude to this same idea that they normally do not breed until 3 years old. So that discards the *nature* argument. I have seen some breeders who will breed their fillies at 2, or try to, and in some cases the results seem to not have made any difference to the growth of the fillies but in others the fillies have never quite recovered from it. I dont think the risk is worth the short term gain and I am glad you have chosen to give your filly time to grow and mature before breeding her because it would be a shame if your filly had an unfortunate outcome.
 
I haven't read all this thread - too long! I would say 3 would be a good age as then you can back her while you have no seasons and hormonal issues to contend with, turn her away in autumn and re back her at 4 the following autumn when the foal is weaned.
 
I know someone who was advised by experienced breeders that it was okay to breed from her 2yo, she sent the filly away to stud but she failed to become pregnant. She tried again a couple of years later with a different 2yo filly and different stallion and she too failed to become pregnant.

Don't know if it was just a co-incidence or nature's way of saying neither of them was ready?
 
I own a 16hh warmblood mare who was put in foal as a 2 year old, I bought her when she was 3 with the foal at foot. She is now 9, touch wood she has never had a days lameness in the whole time I have owned her. She has competed BSJA and has had a further two foals, she's a perfectly fit and healthy horse.

I believe putting 2 year old's in foal can slow the growth of the mare but have no scientific evidence of this, there may be some. It's really up to you and the reasons for putting your mare in foal. My vets don't think there is anything wrong with it however I have a two year old filly who is out of the mare I am talking about and won't be putting her in foal as I feel she is too imature. I will see how she is next year lightly back her and then possibly put her in foal to carry on my breeding project.

You know your mare and how mature she is, there are plenty of people who do put 2 year old's in foal, I can't say I'm 100% for or against it.

I hope this helps
 
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