Putting a mare in foal at 2

Hi Missyme, please ignore all the other idiots on this post who are totally ignoring what you're asking for, and instead using the thread as an opportunity to have a good fight and a mud-sling. Welcome to H&H boards...

I have no evidence either way I'm afraid. I would assume automatically that it wouldnt be safe, but I have no proof. You could try (after speaking to your vet obvioously) ringing people like WHW, RSPCA, other vet surgeries, local studs, maybe even breed assosciations? They might have the evidence you're seeking. Is there an equivalent to the British Medical Journal for vets? If so they might have a website and you could try their search facility? You could also try maybe looking at stud regulations - if they have rules for the lowest age you can accept a horse to stud?

Hope those suggestions are of some use.

I would consider the "chunkiness" of your horse, how mature she is. I definitely would have her done AI, as I would imagine doing it "properly" would have quite a high risk of pelvic injuries. You could try ringing feed companies to get an idea of what supplements etc you could get her on so that she can best support a foal - they might also be someone that it'd be worth ringing to get ideas on whether its good or not?

Anyway, whatever you decide, good luck! Your approach is mature, in that its best to make the decision with as much evidence as possible. Good luck! Let us know the outcome. And don't let the other overemotionals on here upset you. xxxx
 
Ditto Flamehead - I couldn't believe how upset people were getting with you, despite your multitude of posts explaining that you were asking for good, fact based advice! Think there are an awful lot of folk who go apopleptic at the slightest mention of breeding a horse and are slightly evangelistic about the whole thing! Don't want to get into the whole breeding debate, but to put my penneth forward briefly, I think ok to breed if it is to be kept for yourself for life or if you have a quality or proven animal that you want to breed from. Breeding for the sake of it or to make a quick buck (most likely won't) = not good.

The breeder of our 4 year old filly regularly puts his 2 year olds in foal - he breeds top quality warmbloods that are regularly given premiums at WB gradings. He is involved with the European studbooks and is very biased by their breeding methods.

He suggested we do the same with our filly at age 2, but we didn't go for it, the main reason being that we didn't want a foal from her at this stage.....probably the best reason of all, and the Q to ask yourself - do you want another mouth to feed, as it is quite obvious you are responsible and if you bred a foal, would most likely keep it!

Obviously each horse is different and I'm sure responsible experienced breeders would not be putting underdeveloped and at risk fillies in foal - what would be the point? Certainly there would be no benefit on any level.

Anyway, good for you for sticking to your guns, remaining calm and thanks for an interesting question :)
 
I personally wouldnt do it- feel the horse is too young and needs more time to develope.

Just because something can and does happen in the wild does not mean thats how we should do things. Our domesticated horses lead different lives to wild horses.
 
We used to put alot of our fillies in foal as 3 year olds - I am not sure that a horse is developed enough to breed a good quality foal as a 2 year old. But I do think that times have moved on. I would no longer do it because:
a) there are far too many unwanted horses being bred.
b) I would only now breed from a mare that had proved her ability in a chosen discipline and had proved her soundness.
c)with modern technology, if the mare is a fantastic competition horse you can always breed from her using a surrogate. This is now quite common in the eventing/show jumping/polo world.
There is no evidence that a mare that has had a foal when young will breed again when older/retired.
I would speak to a vet who specialises in stud work and ask their advice, but I feel very strongly that mares should only be bred from (regardless of their age) when they have proved themselves. It is an expensive business and you could end up with another youngster that is worth nothing. As long as she is being well handled on the ground and with things like loading etc. I would let her grow and develop.
 
Personally it's not something I would do, however my little mare had her first foal aged two and by the time the lady I bought her from got her she was 5 and pregnant with her third foal. She's never suffered any physical issues but she was an awful mother (tho seeing how the foal turned out maybe she guessed and wanted out lol) and the foal had to be weaned at just under 5 months because she ignored him and kicked when he wanted to feed.
 
you may disagree but there are large studies that have not revealed any significant problems for the mare when they are bred very young. In a study of 137 yearling mares bred, no increased dangers to the mare were identified Mares this age may be harder to settle and they have a higher incidence of early embryonic loss. Though you can conjure other behavioral and medical scenerios that you think should be harmful, in practice these problems have not been seen.

the foal will not really start pulling on the mare until the mare is 32 months old and that at this time has reached 99% of her height. The foal will not be born till she is 3. I see no reason that with good nutrition and training that the eventual size, health, or emotional status of the mare would be effected, though this will have to be tested to know for sure.

Would I do it personally? No, but I have no evidence this is harmful to the mare. The evidence I have is just the opposite, there appears to be no or little increase in problems with breeding 2 year old mares.
I do believe at lot of people rule out breeding because this is what we go by .
but i do say only breed if its for you or daughter ,there are far to many unwanted horses and poies that are breed not only by people that want to breed but by high quality stud that want to earn a few buck , i think there should be a boundry to breeding cause to me not only are normal breeders are breeding ever year but also quality breeders
what does get me if the fact is alot of people are still breeding even tho there are loads of unwanted horses out there , inc high stud wouldnt you just say enough is enough till these problems are resommed.
but back on subject . ask your vet for his appinon , and weight up the pro and cons of breeding from your mare as well as looking at her from confo , bloodlines etc
 
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missyme10 said:
Hello all,

I am seeking general opinion of the idea of putting a mare in foal at 2.
For those who think its not right - why is it not right?
For those who do, again why?

I would be particuarly interested in any scientific evidence, ie. studies that have been carried out of mares put in foal at 2 - there seems to be a lack of this or maybe I'm just not looking in the right places??
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I definately wouldn't - No horse has completed their own growth and development at 2. Why would you want to risk your mare developing healthily into a strong adult and setting her up well for life? Foal needs lots of nutrients, and I would say the foal will get priority over the nutrients than the mare (who still needs them herself for growth) - it'd be like syphoning off the very stuff she needs.

Thats all apart from the mental issues - I would say no 2 year old (3 by the time the foal arrives) is going to be mentally mature enough to look after a foal as well as she might when she were older, and I would be concerned that she would be nutty and race around, still show fear of things she hasn't been de-sensitised to yet (like rugs, clippers etc), and when the foal is at such a young age they rely on their mother's behaviour to learn skills for life (such as time budgets for grazing) - why would you want them copying a young mare's behaviour?

I don't know either way about studies, suspect like a lot of things equine they don't exist or are poor quality because you can't control all other influences, therefore you could put any problems down to "environment" or whatever.

I know someone who do it, and who will also breed father to step daughter etc - they claim its ok because horses would do it in the wild. My arguement is who says the foals and mares turn out healthy and live to an old age without problems? More likely the weaker ones are just predated so in the long term evolutionary those who show a preferance for breeding young or to relatives are weeded out. Secondly we already have too many horses and as owners who have a choice, and we are supposed to be the intelligent species, so can make informed decisions based on wanting healthy long living domesticated horses :)
 
Well Mary King had foals out of all her homebred mares when they were 2 and they have not gone on to do too badly! Kings Gem recently won a 3*, Kings Fancy is doing well at 3* and Kings Temptress who is still with Mary is now at 4*. Out of the progeny, Mary seems to have only kept King Albert who recently won an intermediate but the others were all sold with intermediate points.
 
missyme10 said:
I've a next to useless pony that I've stuck with for 4 years, who'll always be next to usless, and how many folk who frown on a 2 year old being put into foal would have given up on her or dumped her on a dealers truck by now?
I personally dont know many that would have stuck it out for the last 4 years when they dont own their land and she actually costs money to keep and prevents me having another horse I actually want !
So I'm hardly someone who treats their horses as a commodity, if they were that, I wouldn't be wearing primark clothing whilst my horses have the best bloody rugs !
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Most of the people contributing to this thread would,fact ;)

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of breeding from a youngster for a moment,have you thought at all about the financial implications of breeding?
It's an expensive game and if you can't afford to buy another riding horse you probably can't afford the bills for breeding(cost of foaling can easily go up to and beyound the price of a horse,esp if something goes wrong).

And then,given that you openly admit keeping your retired pony prevents you funding a second riding horse,what would happen to the foal from your mare?
 
Pony breeders would put a 2 year old in foal to keep the mare's height down to within the breed standard. I went round a very famous and successful stud and that was quite common.

2 does sound a bit young, maybe wait until she is 3 to put her in foal, but then she would be almost 5 before she could do much ridden work. You could very lightly back her at 2 - I mean have the tack and saddle on and maybe have a light rider sit on her. Then you could continue to break her in at 3 and have her covered and just do a little bit with her very light work. Then when the foal is weaned she could go into ridden work.

It is the back and neck bones which are the last to fuse, a horse's skelton matures from the feet upwards.
 
No, until you know what a the mare is going to matured into, I wouldn't think of breeding from her, surely you breed to improve on the breed or the stock you already have, same goes when using a stallion, if it not worth breeding from, don't put it in foal, not really sure how you can tell at 2 years of age.
 
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

Skip to page 6 (All horses of all breeds mature Skeletally at the same rate) and skip to page 9 (Relationship of skeletal to sexual maturity) although she is talking about a colt. She basically says that a 2 yr old colt is as mature as a 14 yr old boy, therefore a 2yr old filly is as mature as a 14yr old girl.

I personally would NEVER put my 2yr old filly in foal. Yes it is possible, but she is not physically or mentally ready.
 
Thanks Faracat - I remember being struck down on this forum (even by a vet!!) about breaking my horses at 5/6. Now I have proof!!! HA HAH!!

Will save for everyone else who thinks I'm a dumbass.

Sorry, been following this thread and wholly agree despite lack of evidence that breeding at 2yrs is tantamount to selfishness on the human part whether it be small or large scale. At the end of the day, breeders are businesses and will do whatever it takes to make a living from horses when that is all they know.

Times move on, beliefs change but humans will always be selfish creatures and have a natural trait to exploit (anything!)- except the few who try and make the world a better place for our co-inhabitants (plants included).

So what that a wild horse reproduces at 2/3 yrs - that's all they will do until they die - at a relatively early age. They are not expected to perform under saddle like many have pointed out.

The reason why you won't find any research is that no-one has the cash or resources to carry it out - horse business is about profit and those who care enough about them don't have the financial backing or the experience to carry out such detailed analyses at the end not to mention the cost of insemination or covering. Imagine how much the x-rays alone would cost to assess the number needed to make it a powerful enough study. You would also have to use different breeds to make it viable as an applicable outcomes study across the species.

Horses/horse care/management, it seems, will always be subjective as it's just not popular enough, to make doing such studies even worth it.

To the OP: it IS your decision ATEOTD, breeding from a horse at any age is a risk. So why increase your odds of failure because a breeder suggested breeding is a good thing to do? What if, you were unlucky.
 
I have to agree with some of the posts above. 2 yr old horses are not fully developed with musculature and ligaments that may not be able to cope with the extra strain of pregnancy, as well as the fact that they are not mentally mature which can lead to problems of rejection and abandonment. Some horses never recover their former muscle structure after foaling so you would have to prepare for the fact that her stomach might hang below her knees for the rest of her life! Horses in the wild do not have the extra burdon of having people ride them, and have a much shorter life expectation, hence they start breeding at an early age. I purchased a 3 yr old warmblood last year and it was also suggested to me that I place her in foal straight away, but one look at the gangly underdeveloped frame made me opt for waiting a few years. I now have a lovelly colt from my 10 year old mare that I'm very proud of :)
 
I'm not sure how this has ended up back up the top 6 weeks later, but for those who haven't read through it (its blooming long winded lol), I made the decision 6 weeks ago that I wasn't going to put my filly into foal.
This after weighing up all the facts I could find (which was seriously limited), opinions from friends and my filly's maturity.

6 weeks on I believe I made the right decision.

Its a provocative subject, made worse by people's inability to read - I rarely see so many dummies spat out on here, was done in in proper H&H style!! lol
and all because people didn't bother to read my original question, glad to see so many have this time around and expressed thier opinions in a non judgemental intelligent manner that also avoided personal attacks or mud slinging, or using the post just as an excuse for a b*tchfest!

There is hope for the H&H forum yet !!! lol
 
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