Puzzled - "wrong horse put down" article?

[Gingersmum]

For the horse to be unwell enough, even age related, to be pts, would the vet or at least a member of the surgery not have seen to the horse before to try alternative treatment or administer pain meds to keep the animal comfortable until the deed was done and therefore recognize them? Or is this just my country-town mentality?

no, some people put them down before they get to that stage

I would imagine that generally a vet would know the horse and owner through historical illness attended.
If a vet is presented with a non-urgent PTS scenario where the vet doesn't know the horse or owner then maybe this incident highlights that checks ought to be made.

 

[Widgeon]

It doesn't sound right, you can argue the vet isn't at fault, but surely any vet with any basic professionalism, common sense and compassion would check all was being done correctly?

Mmm yes, agree with this too.

 

[Widgeon]

Louise quite rightly is upset,but honestly everybody all this talk of monetary compensation and other thoughts ,will not bring the horse back and is of no consequence to her nor would she expect it.
Hindsight is a great thing but you cannot change what has happened.

As you seem to know some of the people involved, thanks for posting. I think some of the confusion here probably arose from the generally rubbish reporting in the H&H article! (As Alec pointed out). I do sometimes wonder who they get to write some of these "news" articles, they are often so poor as to be pretty well pointless.

My thought of monetary compensation came from the way that the article suggested that the owner hasn't even had an apology - faced with that sort of attitude I think I would want to hit the responsible person with the biggest claim possible! But as you and others point out, we don't actually know the full circumstances of the incident. Anyway it's sad and I do feel very sorry for the owner and carer of the horse. I don't know why anyone would think the horse was neglected - I can't see anything that suggested that any of them were neglected.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well it's certainly not the vets fault it's clearly the fault of the owner for not being there and for choosing a muppet to do the job of presenting the horse to the vet .
Biazzre story .

 

[Lanky Loll]

Whilst the story is all shades of weird and wrong I do find it amazing that more checks are made when you take a horse to an abbattoir than if the vet comes out - I know this is due to the entry into the food chain etc, but would have thought this should be standard regardless of method?

 

[popsdosh]

For the horse to be unwell enough, even age related, to be pts, would the vet or at least a member of the surgery not have seen to the horse before to try alternative treatment or administer pain meds to keep the animal comfortable until the deed was done and therefore recognize them? Or is this just my country-town mentality?


I would imagine that generally a vet would know the horse and owner through historical illness attended.
If a vet is presented with a non-urgent PTS scenario where the vet doesn't know the horse or owner then maybe this incident highlights that checks ought to be made.

Seriously as a vet what do you do when faced with what you are aware is the owners mother and two horses , Start questioning the validity of what you are doing? Sorry these situations are stressful enough for owners without them feeling they have to wait for an identity check.
Do you really think that vets remember every horse they treat.
Why do some think there is something odd about it , its very straightforward somebody was asked to be there and present the horses and they made the most terrible of mistakes there is no underlying sub plot going on. I am sure they are as devastated as Louise is and no words can put it right nor was it done with any motive. We all love to over analyse everything though.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Seriously as a vet what do you do when faced with what you are aware is the owners mother and two horses , Start questioning the validity of what you are doing? Sorry these situations are stressful enough for owners without them feeling they have to wait for an identity check.
Do you really think that vets remember every horse they treat.
Why do some think there is something odd about it , its very straightforward somebody was asked to be there and present the horses and they made the most terrible of mistakes there is no underlying sub plot going on. I am sure they are as devastated as Louise is and no words can put it right nor was it done with any motive. We all love to over analyse everything though.

I think what people are expecting are that the vet would make a few basic checks before PTS - if as appears to be the case the plan was for a pair of oldies to go off together before they got too bad - a simple check for chip, chip matches passport (or drawing matches horse if no chip), yes ok and job done - takes less than 5 minutes.

 

[SEL]

My last YO had a fair few PTS by the hunt and there were never any checks done to agree the horse to the passport - I doubt they even had a microchip reader on them. They would just assume the people handling the horses were not so incompetent that they would present them with the wrong horse. I can't see the vets being any different unless they actually knew the horses concerned.

I once brought in an all black TB gelding for the hunt who had reached the end of his life and saw one of the liveries do a bit of a double take. He was very, very similar to her mare in looks and she hurriedly turned her mare out before the hunt turned up. I'm sure we wouldn't have presented them with the wrong horse, but it was a big yard with a lot of TBs in shades of brown and black.......

Very sorry for your friend Popsdosh - I'd be beyond devastated.

 

[Leonor]

Seriously as a vet what do you do when faced with what you are aware is the owners mother and two horses , Start questioning the validity of what you are doing? Sorry these situations are stressful enough for owners without them feeling they have to wait for an identity check.
Do you really think that vets remember every horse they treat.
Why do some think there is something odd about it , its very straightforward somebody was asked to be there and present the horses and they made the most terrible of mistakes there is no underlying sub plot going on. I am sure they are as devastated as Louise is and no words can put it right nor was it done with any motive. We all love to over analyse everything though.

Louise has stated that the owner whose mother presented the wrong horses never made an apology and only said something after the yo made her and louise still didnt get a sorry , Louise also seemed puzzled by the whole thing .Not overanalysing .

 

[ester]

I think the issue is that in general no vet would ever think an owner/their representative would present the wrong horse!

 

[Goldenstar]

I think what people are expecting are that the vet would make a few basic checks before PTS - if as appears to be the case the plan was for a pair of oldies to go off together before they got too bad - a simple check for chip, chip matches passport (or drawing matches horse if no chip), yes ok and job done - takes less than 5 minutes.

Any vet who thinks it's a goood idea to start mucking about with paperwork when I am handing them my horse to PTS will leave with a thick ear .
It's owners mothers fault and the owner squarely no room for doubt anything else is just the modern I screw up blame someone else for not stopping me screwing up culture .

 

[Lanky Loll]

Any vet who thinks it's a goood idea to start mucking about with paperwork when I am handing them my horse to PTS will leave with a thick ear .
It's owners mothers fault and the owner squarely no room for doubt anything else is just the modern I screw up blame someone else for not stopping me screwing up culture .

In an emergency case totally with you, but this wasn't. And I'm not trying to blame the vet I'm just surprised that there are no checks in place when the vet does the deed. It's not something I have experience of as we've only ever had one shot at home - done by the hunt following a broken leg in the field, the others over the years have gone to Potters where everything is checked and passport signed off.

 

[ycbm]

In an emergency case totally with you, but this wasn't. And I'm not trying to blame the vet I'm just surprised that there are no checks in place when the vet does the deed. It's not something I have experience of as we've only ever had one shot at home - done by the hunt following a broken leg in the field, the others over the years have gone to Potters where everything is checked and passport signed off.

Potters have to do that because otherwise they have no idea if they are being brought a stolen horse and also have to check whether it can go for human consumption or not. Horses killed at Potters are taken there from elsewhere and normally paid for. It isn't the responsibility of a vet in the middle of a field which they have been called to, to start asking for ID for the horse. Neither is it an issue whether it is healthy or not. Of course any individual vet can refuse to put a horse down, but that's a personal ethical decision and not a legal one.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Potters have to do that because otherwise they have no idea if they are being brought a stolen horse and also have to check whether it can go for human consumption or not. Horses killed at Potters are taken there from elsewhere and normally paid for. It isn't the responsibility of a vet in the middle of a field which they have been called to, to start asking for ID for the horse. Neither is it an issue whether it is healthy or not. Of course any individual vet can refuse to put a horse down, but that's a personal ethical decision and not a legal one.

I get that - just still surprised that in this age of bureaucracy they don't have to sign off passports etc. Can't help thinking it leaves it open to abuse by the unscrupulous

 

[Cecile]

Potters have to do that because otherwise they have no idea if they are being brought a stolen horse and also have to check whether it can go for human consumption or not. Horses killed at Potters are taken there from elsewhere and normally paid for. It isn't the responsibility of a vet in the middle of a field which they have been called to, to start asking for ID for the horse. Neither is it an issue whether it is healthy or not. Of course any individual vet can refuse to put a horse down, but that's a personal ethical decision and not a legal one.

Sort of this ^^^
Its quite straight forward or should be, if a vet didn't like to put a horse down they wouldn't or shouldn't come out anyway, the owner has enough on their plate

You just phone up and book the vet to come out, I always want early morning as that is how I am, I can't spend the whole day becoming stressed out about times, if I have any questions the vet phones me once I have booked it or I phone him depending on how quickly I want the answer, he is well aware that I don't want much of a conversation with him when he arrives, if I had to faff around waiting for him to look at the passport or scanning for a chip I would be lethal and probably loose the plot on life.

Same with the hunt, I call them they ask what size the horse is and we make an early morning appointment if possible, they always have sedalin with them just in case its needed (Never needed it for a horse but often wonder if I should have some), they arrive make idle conversation which is a one way conversation as my head is like cotton wool, if they ever started asking me for a passport or chip details I think I would pass out as I am almost sure I hold my breath when they are there

This situation of the wrong horse being put down obviously doesn't happen that often. I don't think the world should change due to this unfortunate situation, it wouldn't happen on my yard as I am holding the horse or my husband is. Large busy yards or livery yards may need to check out their arrangements just as a safeguard for the future

Not sure what happens at Potters

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Not sure what happens at Potters

With any licensed premises it's a statutory requirement that the horse and it's passport are matching and it's all to do with the onward shipment of the carcass and it's possible usage, as opposed to incineration. There is no requirement upon an attending vet, or any other person to supply or receive any documentation, and in my view, rightly so, the horse being viewed as it would had it died of natural causes. Put down on the premises is viewed as a matter of disposal.

Alec.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm another who would NOT be happy if the vet/hunt/knackerman wanted to start faffing around with paperwork, when they had come to pts.
It is the responsibility of the person presenting the horse to ensure that they have the right horse. If there are only a few horse, then it surely can't be that difficult. If it is a large livery yard then YO should be aware that pts is happening and maybe be around to see that all goes smoothly, although I certainly wouldn't expect YO to have to check that he right horse was brought out
And, even though nothing can put the situation right/bring the horse back, I would expect monetary compensation from the numpty who presented the wrong horse to the vet - just to make the point.

 

[tallyho!]

Who is supposed to recompense her? The YO wasn't informed and the Vet put down the 2 horses that he was instructed to, presented by a family member of the owner? (obviously the mother should pay something if they are that kind of family).

The vet should have checked the passport - in my eyes that is a breach of his code.

 

[popsdosh]

Louise has stated that the owner whose mother presented the wrong horses never made an apology and only said something after the yo made her and louise still didnt get a sorry , Louise also seemed puzzled by the whole thing .Not overanalysing .

I was talking about those that think theres a backstory.
It is her worst nightmare and then some. I am not sure what I would say if it had been me making such a mistake and I am sure they are totally devastated to be generous to them ,what can you say!

 

[Alec Swan]

The question of compensation is a tricky one; though the person who presented the wrong horse to be destroyed, is clearly responsible, the unpalatable aspect of any claim, is the marketable value of the animal. Compensation claims never take in to account any emotional connection. The value of compensation is only ever considered at the marketable value of, in this case, a 25yo retired ex-ptp horse. The true marketable value would probably have the horse valued in the negative.

That doesn't take away from the upset to the owner, and I understand that it will probably be considerable, but the brutal fact is that the horse may well have had no commercial value, at all.

Alec.

 

[Orangehorse]

That is so Alec. There is no financial compensation for grief and upset but the poor owner must be heartbroken, all down to carelessness.

 

[sarahandwilby]

The vet should have checked the passport - in my eyes that is a breach of his code.

I've put down some that I'm 99% certain don't even have a passport... And found plenty with the wrong passport for other things. I wouldn't blame the vet.

All very worrying though and I will certainly be more careful in future if it's anyone other than the owner with the horse!

 

[Alec Swan]

That is so Alec. …….. all down to carelessness.

Yes, quite.

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

I've put down some that I'm 99% certain don't even have a passport… …….. I will certainly be more careful in future if it's anyone other than the owner with the horse!

Sanguine advice to others, no question of that.

Alec.

 

[Cecile]

The vet should have checked the passport - in my eyes that is a breach of his code.

This idea could lead to problems, vets put horses down all the time without even knowing who the owner is, they attend traffic accidents, are called out to dumped horses, make decisions to put down during welfare situations, if the situation were to alter and vets were accountable or held responsible for putting down without checking they may become reluctant to actually attend, what would happen if the owner had no passport, lost it or didn't have it with them, would he refuse to do it?

One of mine was referred to hospital and was put down there, at no time did I give anyone a view of the passport, ok my vet referred to the hospital but the vet who actually put him down didn't know me or the gelding, the passport was in my car and the last thing on my mind

The people involved in this terrible situation must be reliving this every minute of the day with what ifs, how and why, it really is everyone's worse nightmare

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. , vets put horses down all the time without even knowing who the owner is, ……..

I once went to a horse which was in a very bad way. The vet said that he wouldn't put the horse down without the owner's authority. Despite repeated attempts, the owner couldn't be contacted. I knew the owner well and advised the vet that I was in fact the owner. Within 30 seconds, the horse's suffering was over. It was the only way and the owner accepted that.

The problem is that when we consider the vet, what are they to do but deal worth what's before them? It was my view, at the time that if we're to consider the welfare of the animal, then any attending vet has no other option than to consider the best interests of the animal. What happens with a horse which is fatally injured whilst racing, is the owner contacted first? Of course they aren't …. the welfare of the horse comes first.

Attempting to attach blame to a vet, at such times, is unacceptable.

Alec.

 

[Cecile]

I once went to a horse which was in a very bad way. The vet said that he wouldn't put the horse down without the owner's authority. Despite repeated attempts, the owner couldn't be contacted. I knew the owner well and advised the vet that I was in fact the owner. Within 30 seconds, the horse's suffering was over. It was the only way and the owner accepted that.

The problem is that when we consider the vet, what are they to do but deal worth what's before them? It was my view, at the time that if we're to consider the welfare of the animal, then any attending vet has no other option than to consider the best interests of the animal. What happens with a horse which is fatally injured whilst racing, is the owner contacted first? Of course they aren't …. the welfare of the horse comes first.

Attempting to attach blame to a vet, at such times, is unacceptable.

Alec.

I completely agree with you and this should also cover the hunt and knackerman
I would hate to see a load of PC activity, rules and regulations attached to putting an animal down in the UK

I'm ok Jack as my vet has known me for over 30yrs so my animals won't be affected but what about all the other animals out there without that safety net if someone wants the rules changed,
it doesn't bare thinking about

Thank you for explaining about Potters, I doubt I will ever attend but it good to learn something new everyday

 

[GirlFriday]

Completely agree with Alec that the value of this horse will have been low (less than meat money potentially if the passport has it signed out of the food chain...) but do feel, as with any property damage, some form of (ideally good will gesture, not sued for!) compensation is in order. If a break a tea cup in someone's house I replace that even though the value is very low - the symbolism matters too.

Can't agree that vets have to always do what is in the best interests of the animal. Owners in this country have the right to request a vet PTS a perfectly happy healthy horse if they so wish which is, to my mind, sometimes fundamentally at odds with acting in the horse's best interests.

I appreciate the point was being made more in relation to a situation where the vet would believe PTS /was/ in best interests but did not have permission from the owner; but the converse (PTS not in best interests but at request of owner) is also a common scenario. Our society probably isn't ready (and I'm not sure it ever should be) for vets to routinely overrule or disregard owners in all matters - not about the treatment of minor ailments nor end of life. I'd expect them to use their professional judgement to _only_ administer non-authorised treatment (including life ending treatment) when there is an emergency situation or with law enforcement backing.

 

[popsdosh]

Completely agree with Alec that the value of this horse will have been low (less than meat money potentially if the passport has it signed out of the food chain...) but do feel, as with any property damage, some form of (ideally good will gesture, not sued for!) compensation is in order. If a break a tea cup in someone's house I replace that even though the value is very low - the symbolism matters too.

Can't agree that vets have to always do what is in the best interests of the animal. Owners in this country have the right to request a vet PTS a perfectly happy healthy horse if they so wish which is, to my mind, sometimes fundamentally at odds with acting in the horse's best interests.

I appreciate the point was being made more in relation to a situation where the vet would believe PTS /was/ in best interests but did not have permission from the owner; but the converse (PTS not in best interests but at request of owner) is also a common scenario. Our society probably isn't ready (and I'm not sure it ever should be) for vets to routinely overrule or disregard owners in all matters - not about the treatment of minor ailments nor end of life. I'd expect them to use their professional judgement to _only_ administer non-authorised treatment (including life ending treatment) when there is an emergency situation or with law enforcement backing.

Why are everybody so hung up on the horses value ,it has nothing to do with this situation ! It is of no consequence. You sound like you have a middle eastern attitude were even human life has a price and you can use money to clear your conscience.
Tell me how money or replacing the horse will remedy how Louise feels about what has happened. I am sure its not even crossed her mind he was irreplaceable to her!

 

[tallyho!]

This idea could lead to problems, vets put horses down all the time without even knowing who the owner is, they attend traffic accidents, are called out to dumped horses, make decisions to put down during welfare situations, if the situation were to alter and vets were accountable or held responsible for putting down without checking they may become reluctant to actually attend, what would happen if the owner had no passport, lost it or didn't have it with them, would he refuse to do it?

One of mine was referred to hospital and was put down there, at no time did I give anyone a view of the passport, ok my vet referred to the hospital but the vet who actually put him down didn't know me or the gelding, the passport was in my car and the last thing on my mind

The people involved in this terrible situation must be reliving this every minute of the day with what ifs, how and why, it really is everyone's worse nightmare

By law they are supposed to check so actually they are liable.

If you look at the law, the vet is required to check and sign the passport at intervals and our vets are very particular. (I was made to go home and get mine when I forgot it). There's is a £5000 fine if you don't have a passport which is supposed to be reported by an attending vet should they find you don't have the correct one.

The vet is supposed to sign the euthanasia/death bit of the passport then the passport has to returned to the PIO within a month (I think).

Copied from horse passport regs 2009:

Procedure on death
13.—(1) When a horse is slaughtered or killed for disease control purposes, the official veterinary surgeon responsible for the slaughter or killing must, in accordance with Article 19(2)(a)(i) of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 504/2008, return the passport to the passport issuing organisation as soon as is reasonably practicable.
(2) When a horse is slaughtered for human consumption, in accordance with Article 19(2)(a)(ii) of that Regulation the occupier of the slaughterhouse must give the passport to the official veterinary surgeon at the slaughterhouse, who must record the identification number of the animal, mark the passport accordingly and send the marked passport to the passport issuing organisation as soon as is reasonably practicable.
(3) In any other case, notwithstanding Article 19(2)(b) of that Regulation, the keeper must return the passport to the passport issuing organisation within 30 days of the death of the horse, and failure to do so is an offence.
(4) The return of the passport under this regulation is the attestation required under Article 19(1)(c) of that Regulation.


Unfortunately lots of vets almost rely on the fact that owners have no idea about the law and so get away with rather a lot.