rabatsa
Confuddled
Most horses will fall under (3). Nothing here to say the vet needs to even see the passport and the onus is on the owner to return the passport to the PIO.
Puzzled - "wrong horse put down" article?
- Thread starter Widgeon
- Start date
Most horses will fall under (3). Nothing here to say the vet needs to even see the passport and the onus is on the owner to return the passport to the PIO.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think you are right even though the disease control part also does include animal health in the EC regulation (which is huge), not just disease. If only (3) applies then there is no responsibility on any party to make sure it's the right horse - (how can that be allowed?) If it is the case then owner has no one but herself to blame.
(I know it happens all the time)
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of confusion is being created by who is being described as the 'owner' as you describe ,as to be honest neither were personally involved in this mess up.
Undecided
Well-Known Member
Yes this is what I meant sorry I wasn't clearer. I only say this as last weekend I took both horse and guinea pig to the vet, horse had jab and GP needed eye looking at and teeth clipping. My mum went in to register our place in the queue as I was stood with the horse in the box. GP had never seen vet before and my mum made a passing comment to reception that he was getting on a bit and that's why he was going downhill a little (weight loss, teeth wearing uneven etc.). Vet came out to car park with two needles, one for horse, one very familiar looking coloured one for GP. I asked him what reception had told him I was here for with GP and he said to be PTS (!!!!!). He took one look at GP and said there'd nothing wrong with him to warrant that, he just needs eye drops and teeth clipping.
So yes my situation was a misunderstanding/communication error, but vet still looked over the animal he had never seen before prior to doing what he assumed I had asked for, and said that there was no reason for it. Alternatively, the week before our 12 yo bitch was PTS, we rang that day and without even questioning us, said he would be with us at so and so time. He had seen her on and off for the last year or so with different issues and deteriorating health and he knew that we weren't making that phone call lightly, but he didn't question our decision either as he understood there was no recovering for her and we wanted her to go with dignity.
joosie
Well-Known Member
Yes I am quite amazed how many people don't seem to have understood which horses belonged to whom!
Cecile
Well-Known Member
If there was a disease outbreak regarding equines the situation regarding disposing of a horse would alter but until that time the vet is booked in to put a horse down and neither has to see the passport or sign anything,
the owner just has to send in the passport, however if there were an outbreak of disease it is very possible Defra would be giving the permission/authorisation to have the horse put down by whoever they choose and the owner would be able to receive £1 in compensation (I think one such disease is African Horse sickness)
Until that time (which hopefully will never happen) the owner can call the vet, hunt or knackerman to a sick, old or perfectly well horse and have the deed done
Cecile
Well-Known Member
I agree with this ^
Leonor
Member
Louise is the owner of the horse that was wrongly put down.She had nothing to do with the error.
The other owner was supposed to have her horse put down but her mother presented the vet with the wrong one .
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
The other owner is at fault for failing to ensure that her deputy(mother) knew what she was doing.
{97702}
...
This is horrific - how stupid and ignorant of the owner and her mother not to at least notify the yard owner and fellow livery that this was happening! Poor owner (Louise) 
Alec Swan
...
If you look further at the regulations and as you've listed them the conditions to which you refer concern those vets who are attending the slaughter of horses for 'Control disease proposes' and this would be at a time of an equine disease which was highly contagious — F&M for instance, except horses aren't liable to that.
I'd refer you to clause 3 which clearly has the owner 'In any other case' of the horse as being responsible for the return of a passport to the issuing authority — NOT the vet.
Alec.
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Cloball
Well-Known Member
It's not a case not a case of placing blame on the vet, as from the thread its clearly not the done thing, I just can't imagine a professional putting needle to skin without checking an quick ID, however; that is easiest done. That's a very different scenario to putting a horse down at the road side or one that is suffering. That is probably just my line of work talking though. People get quite annoyed when they get the wrong medication even when they swear blind they ARE Margaret (and their ID says they are clearly Dave).
GirlFriday
Well-Known Member
Gosh this forum jumps to unhelpful (and entirely irrelevant) nationalistic attitudes quickly...
As I said in the post I mentioned the money as a symbolic gesture, an admission of responsibility, like the apology the owner told a journalist she would have wanted. I wasn't for a minute suggesting the horse be replaced.
And, as an FYI, under English law it was property, a thing. I'm not aware of any English mechanism for treating it as anything else or formally recognising the emotional value. Sure, it could be a nice gesture to offer to pay for individual cremation/horse hair bracelet/enlarged photo/whatever other thing might help the owner later on but, assuming disposal had already happened, and the owners don't know each other well enough to pick out a personal commemoration/decide a bottle of gin would suit better, I'm not sure what else the owner could hope for from those who made the mistake at this stage.
What would you suggest they do? (Assuming the public humiliation at a time when they themselves have just lost two horses leaves them open to suggestion...)
Cecile
Well-Known Member
Its no different to when the owner calls the hunt or knackerman to their yard, the horse is then shot, no ID is needed and I doubt the hunt or knackerman would think to question the person holding the horse if they have the correct horse at the end of the lead rope which they are about to shoot and take away
Cecile
Well-Known Member
Do you know what suddenly sent my mind into overload, that 2 horses were to be put down (Both belonging to one owner) which clearly didn't happen, now there is still one horse to be put down as a terrible error has been made, who on earth would want to sort that out, if I were the owner, the mother of owner or the vet I really wouldn't want to be responsible that day
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Yes I agree someone pointed that out to me earlier... we've had several horses its bt same vet group and each time they checked the passport and I was told they had to... now it's not clear.
What an awful oversight in the law don't you think?
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
yes thanks Alec several people have now pointed this out! Don't you think that's awful though?
Alec Swan
...
Don't you think that's awful though?
My apologies, had I read further back, perhaps I'd have noticed! :redface3::biggrin3:
Is it awful? If you're referring to the fact that a vet isn't responsible for the return of a passport, no not really. The owners are the one's who are responsible, and if the duty of dealing with another layer of bureaucracy is placed on the vet, further absolving the owners from their duties, then I can't agree.
The only person for whom I have any real sympathy, is the owner of the horse which was wrongly destroyed, and even were substantial compensation forthcoming, which I very much doubt it will be, the lady's distress must be considerable.
Alec.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
As has been extensively discussed, the much loved horse which was wrongly put down had little or no financial value. There is no bringing him back, but if the owner and mother of the other two horses made a profound apology and offered to make a substantial donation to a charity of Louise's choice, then maybe that could be a way of drawing a line under it.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
I have at least 3 ponies in gods waiting room, and over the years I have had to have several PTS sleep through old age or infirmity and for me the hardest part is deciding when the time is right. The easiest one was when it had to be done, the illness was catastrophic.
I think if this had happened to my old horse, once I had go over the initial shock and had the moan at how could no one check properly , I would probably think that fate had done me a favour, even better if I could get the person who presented the horse to pay the bill. But I am the sort of person who makes the best of a bad job.
There was a case where the wrong horse went racing, and they are supposed to check the chip before they go into the stable area, https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...h-mandarin-princess-millies-kiss-horse-racing
The ones I have PTS no one has ever checked its the right animal, the hunt must have the record from getting out of the van and the deed being done. Its shown there is a chance of error so perhaps in future who ever is doing the deed they get who ever presents the animal to sign that,
a) its the correct animal
b) they have the right to authorise it and will be responsible for any bill, just that would make someone think twice.
You often hear of relationships breaking up and the partner either selling or 'getting rid' of the horse, I would rather be more 'distressed', that someone had checked properly than have this muddle after the deed is done.
I think if this had happened to my old horse, once I had go over the initial shock and had the moan at how could no one check properly , I would probably think that fate had done me a favour, even better if I could get the person who presented the horse to pay the bill. But I am the sort of person who makes the best of a bad job.
There was a case where the wrong horse went racing, and they are supposed to check the chip before they go into the stable area, https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...h-mandarin-princess-millies-kiss-horse-racing
The ones I have PTS no one has ever checked its the right animal, the hunt must have the record from getting out of the van and the deed being done. Its shown there is a chance of error so perhaps in future who ever is doing the deed they get who ever presents the animal to sign that,
a) its the correct animal
b) they have the right to authorise it and will be responsible for any bill, just that would make someone think twice.
You often hear of relationships breaking up and the partner either selling or 'getting rid' of the horse, I would rather be more 'distressed', that someone had checked properly than have this muddle after the deed is done.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I do still think it's awful there's nowhere to prove the death of a horse.
I've just perused my passports.... there's nowhere to even state a date/cause/method of death - you have to send a covering letter to PIO (or insurers). This is something I've previously never worried about but actually, for a "generic grey" horse... any other "generic grey" could pass off as this horse if I was so inclined and never even say anything to the PIO :O... I send it back to the PIO all I get is an 'invalid' overstamp so there is actually no witness. My eyes have just been opened as to what a shambles the horse passport system is. There's no point even having one
Alec Swan
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It was years ago now, I had two elderly TB brood mares put down, asked Weatherbys what I should do about the passports, the lady I spoke to said that I'm supposed to return them but that most didn't bother! A nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse, or so they say!
As you seem to imply, and I agree, there are a great many rules and regs which are simply ignored and the main reason I suspect, is that whether we comply or we don't, appears to have no impact, what so ever!
Alec.
As you seem to imply, and I agree, there are a great many rules and regs which are simply ignored and the main reason I suspect, is that whether we comply or we don't, appears to have no impact, what so ever!
Alec.
npage123
Well-Known Member
Louise Allan (and groom), if you ever get to read this, I'm so very sorry for what has happened. I wish I could have turned back time so that the error and everything that went wrong on the day, could not have occurred. My heart goes out to you.
Many years ago, when I bought my TB, I contacted Weatherby's to ask the procedure of registering him under my name instead of the previous owners. I duly sent his passport to them, only to have it returned with one change to it: my details was handwritten as the new owner. Anyone else, even I, could have written it and no-one would have known it wasn't a Weatherby's employee that wrote it down.
This very tragic story has reminded me of a previous livery yard where I used to keep my horse. There was another horse (let's call him M), who was also a bay, but in every other way there was no resemblance to M and my horse, Mr C. Mine is a 16.2 bay TB and M probably 15.2, and their conformation was completely different. I used to bring in both if I was there first and we wanted to go on a hack, as being a teenager and having to use the bus, the owner of M was sometimes a bit late.
One day, the owner of M and I decided again to go on a hack. I got to the yard, to find my horse tied up and munching away on a haynet. The (very non-horsey) father of the owner of M, had brought my horse in. I was extremely surprised about that, mostly because my horse was a git to catch unless it was feeding time! So I said 'Wow, thank you so much for bringing Mr C in! How did you manage to catch him?" It transpired that he thought it was his daughter's horse that he brought in...! Luckily ours was a funny situation (unlike the tragic story in the article), but I pointed out to M's 'Dad' that my horse always has sausage boots on behind, so from that day onwards he knew the one with the 'bangles' was Mr C, and not M.
Just saying the above as to the untrained, non-horsey eye, two horses of the same colour would look much more alike than if you asked someone with some equine knowledge to describe the difference between the two said horses.
Very sadly, at that same livery yard, the YO's horse had a tragic accident in the field an had to be PTS asap. There were 2 horses that stayed out 24/7 at the time. I was doing the morning duties and to my shock, found the injured horse around 06:30 that morning with his fractured leg. I immediately called the vet who said he'll be there asap. I then called the owner (who was away for an early morning shift at work, but working locally) I had to briefly explain what had happened and she said she'll be there within 15 minutes. I then called a good friend (and fellow livery) who lived very close to the yard, to come and help me. While she was holding the injured horseand trying to entice him to eat a final nice bucket feed, I put the only other horse in the field back into his stable, administered almost a full tube of sedalin to the injured horse and put a home-made stent on his fractured leg. As we suspected, as soon as the vet laid eyes on the leg, he shook his head and we knew sadly the horse was going to be PTS. The vet administered something, but the owner wanted to say goodbye and luckily she was there shortly after the vet arrived, so the horse was put out of his pain fairly quickly after we discovered him with his injury in the field. After that incident, I've learnt to appreciate every moment that I get to spend with my horse and that sometimes, live is more fragile than you think.
Many years ago, when I bought my TB, I contacted Weatherby's to ask the procedure of registering him under my name instead of the previous owners. I duly sent his passport to them, only to have it returned with one change to it: my details was handwritten as the new owner. Anyone else, even I, could have written it and no-one would have known it wasn't a Weatherby's employee that wrote it down.
This very tragic story has reminded me of a previous livery yard where I used to keep my horse. There was another horse (let's call him M), who was also a bay, but in every other way there was no resemblance to M and my horse, Mr C. Mine is a 16.2 bay TB and M probably 15.2, and their conformation was completely different. I used to bring in both if I was there first and we wanted to go on a hack, as being a teenager and having to use the bus, the owner of M was sometimes a bit late.
One day, the owner of M and I decided again to go on a hack. I got to the yard, to find my horse tied up and munching away on a haynet. The (very non-horsey) father of the owner of M, had brought my horse in. I was extremely surprised about that, mostly because my horse was a git to catch unless it was feeding time! So I said 'Wow, thank you so much for bringing Mr C in! How did you manage to catch him?" It transpired that he thought it was his daughter's horse that he brought in...! Luckily ours was a funny situation (unlike the tragic story in the article), but I pointed out to M's 'Dad' that my horse always has sausage boots on behind, so from that day onwards he knew the one with the 'bangles' was Mr C, and not M.
Just saying the above as to the untrained, non-horsey eye, two horses of the same colour would look much more alike than if you asked someone with some equine knowledge to describe the difference between the two said horses.
Very sadly, at that same livery yard, the YO's horse had a tragic accident in the field an had to be PTS asap. There were 2 horses that stayed out 24/7 at the time. I was doing the morning duties and to my shock, found the injured horse around 06:30 that morning with his fractured leg. I immediately called the vet who said he'll be there asap. I then called the owner (who was away for an early morning shift at work, but working locally) I had to briefly explain what had happened and she said she'll be there within 15 minutes. I then called a good friend (and fellow livery) who lived very close to the yard, to come and help me. While she was holding the injured horseand trying to entice him to eat a final nice bucket feed, I put the only other horse in the field back into his stable, administered almost a full tube of sedalin to the injured horse and put a home-made stent on his fractured leg. As we suspected, as soon as the vet laid eyes on the leg, he shook his head and we knew sadly the horse was going to be PTS. The vet administered something, but the owner wanted to say goodbye and luckily she was there shortly after the vet arrived, so the horse was put out of his pain fairly quickly after we discovered him with his injury in the field. After that incident, I've learnt to appreciate every moment that I get to spend with my horse and that sometimes, live is more fragile than you think.
Cecile
Well-Known Member
With me and only me and the way I think, so I am not saying I am right or wrong, I take on an animal and I am responsible for it and when it is time to end that life it is my responsibility to sort it out, I will arrange the appointment, be there, hold the animal (Or my husband will), pay the bill and send in the passport. The law doesn't really worry me in my case as I am the one who is responsible for what happens
I take old dogs to be put down and I am not asked if I have the correct dog and I am often asked to take cats to the vets for their owners or stand with someone else's horse but I know these animals well. If an owner cannot face being there I meet them at the yard and they either go for a walk or drive off but normally the owner has spent an hour grooming and fussing the horse in question before I arrive and the horse is in the stable with a head collar on, I certainly wouldn't agree to go into a field without the owner being present and take horses out to be put down unless they were mine, I would also always make sure that all the owners of any horses sharing with mine knew what was happening so they could decide whether to avoid the yard that morning, move their horse to another field or choose to be present to make sure their own horse was not galloping around the field upset
However I know nothing about this awful situation, only what has been reported, I just feel so sorry for the owner that it has happened, to the majority of us we can't imagine how it could of happened, but it did and maybe we will all learn something from some other person's total distress
Alec Swan
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Well said, and the rest of your post too. I have, many times, stood with a horse for another, and also put the horse down too when the owners are unable to face it, and without any judgement. We need to always bear in mind that the animal is about to leave this earth and visibly distressed owners will only ever worsen a difficult time. Better always that a calm and thoughtful approach is taken. I always take the view that if we approach it as though we have all day, it will only take a couple of minutes from start to finish.
Alec.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I don't dispute anything you've said. I'm a law abiding person just like you and unfortunately (IME) am far to trusting. No one asked me for my cats documents - she was a stray and wasn't microchipped. I guess me paying thousands for her cancer treatment was proof enough she was mine.
Horses are a bit different to domestic animals though and I'm just so sad for the owner and now that I see the gaping flaw in the law I now know how easy it is for people to get it wrong unintentionally.... (and indeed intentionally (for a whole host of illegitimate reasons!)). There's a few greys on our yard and to the untrained eye they do look similar apart from maybe an inch in height diff. (all related). I can just imagine it happening to me with no one to check the paperwork and check the distinguishing features (e.g. chestnuts if recorded) even if the onus is on the owner. If I wasn't there, as in this case, and the passport wasn't there (as there's no requirement for it to be) then any one of those horses cold be pts if the reason wasn't visible. IF there was some responsibility of the person doing the deed to check, there would be a degree of inspection going on and someone to sign and say "this equine no longer lives" before it was sent back to PIO.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
To add... in death, what is the point of a microchip? It's only useful while the horse is alive it would seem to prevent theft. Seems it's missing a job.
GirlFriday
Well-Known Member
Micro chip might be more to the point actually - a passport is not really designed with the 'pet' animal in mind whereas obviously chips are often used for theft prevention/recovery. Plus, way harder to mix up.
All vets will have a small scanner so very easy to check without passport being present/owner needing to be in fit state, or even there. If microchip <> that on vet record of animal booked in for PTS, no go. (Unless records show no chip expected and no chip found - a problem which will diminish over time). Obvious exception for emergency, unplanned treatment of the kind an owner hasn't necessarily authorised at all - eg loose horse injured on road/vet called by police.
BUT Then you'd also need to require hunts, knacker men & abattoirs to do the same. And they won't have records of horses available to check so would need to check passports.
I recently asked a vet practice to ID a stray they recognised just to double check ID was correct (it was) before return to owner. I can see why people would want to have the 'safe guard' that an incorrectly identified animal (due to accident/theft/malicious intent) couldn't be killed so easily without a check. And it *could* be argued it would help with the original intention of passports too...
All vets will have a small scanner so very easy to check without passport being present/owner needing to be in fit state, or even there. If microchip <> that on vet record of animal booked in for PTS, no go. (Unless records show no chip expected and no chip found - a problem which will diminish over time). Obvious exception for emergency, unplanned treatment of the kind an owner hasn't necessarily authorised at all - eg loose horse injured on road/vet called by police.
BUT Then you'd also need to require hunts, knacker men & abattoirs to do the same. And they won't have records of horses available to check so would need to check passports.
I recently asked a vet practice to ID a stray they recognised just to double check ID was correct (it was) before return to owner. I can see why people would want to have the 'safe guard' that an incorrectly identified animal (due to accident/theft/malicious intent) couldn't be killed so easily without a check. And it *could* be argued it would help with the original intention of passports too...
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
In spain at the moment a system is being trialled where the micro chip is the passport and holds all the info on it. This whole thing happened through a cock up it is rare and no amount of legislation will change it . It was human error nothing to do with legislation
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Try telling Wetherbys they use micro chips as ID in racing and a horse is checked several times when racing. I have a chip reader on my phone as all the cattle here have electronic id . The truth is though there is no mandatory requirement that is being enforced for horse passports to be returned. With our cattle we have 4days to inform BCMS and we have to return the passport even then the only time at death there will be an ID check is if the animal is going into the food chain.
However you can blame whoever you like but in the past the biggest oposition to mandatory passports and id has come from the owners of horses themselves which is evidenced by the still huge number of young horses still being sold without a chip or passport all privately via adds.
The general horse owner will never accept the tough regime required to make a passport system work or the penalties for not complying you would not believe the possible fines that cattle farmers face ,it can run into many K. Just to add you cannot expect the veterinary proffession to police the system for you. At the end of the day many people can be responsible for the destruction of a horse .