Q? Why do so many eventers struggle in the SJ ring

Some really interesting comments, from both "grassroots" upto more advanced level, and on the type of horse, the rider and training.

Also what I've failed to consider is the comparison with a BS show, and a BS horse's jumping record. I've not been to or spectated at a BS show for years TBH so had lost track of say the % going clear in comparison to a BE section, and also that a BE record has "warts and all" whereas a BS record only shows placings (which can be achieved with faults of course) and where DC's count.

Obviously its difficult to select a horse with the physical and mental ability to be competitive in all 3 phases, and in horse shopping (which triggered my original question) maybe one of the questions to ask would relate to a riders "thoughts" on sj, and whether they do actually address training seperately. (Especially if a horse is say home produced by an amateur).

All theoretical of course at the mo:(
 
Really interesting thread, my daughter got a horse that had evented for 2 seasons with double clears every time out, but she nearly always has 1 fence down randomly in the middle of the course. However she has taken approximately 8 penalties off his dressage by really working at the flat work but it is frustrating, the only change we made was to jump him in a bubble bit because she felt he was too strong. He does style jumping in a snaffle and he gets really good marks and always clear although the jumps are smaller, I'm wondering whether she should bite the bullet and go back to a snaffle for the sj in case she's interfering too much. He doesn't seem to have a problem in lessons either.
 
ElleJS said:
You see I don't think it is true at all that eventers struggle with the showjumping, not where I see it anyway!
At top level (infact all levels) the showjumping is considerably so much better than I see at pure showjumping shows. At CIC*** the showjumping tracks are up to height 1.25/1m30's and yet there are a lot of clears, one a couple of weeks a go was more 1m30 and very very square yet the first 5 eventers jumped clear on blood type horses, you wouldn't see that at a BS show. Eventers definately have upped their game and can see a stride better than some pure showjumpers I have seen! Horses are trained extremely well, at one international CIC*** this year the whole section was scoring over 70% in the dressage and an odd rail littered here and there. It is seriously competitive. At a big BS show I was watching this weekend the 1m20 (equivilant to advanced more or less) the number of clears was significantly less than if I had watched event riders ride the course.
I am another who is more gutted with 4 faults than a mediocore dressage- however you not only need a clear showjumping now a days but a sublime dressage to even stand a chance. One with out the other is not good enough! Damn it! :)
I also don't think the breed of horse has anything to do with it. Yes there is more continental blood at top level but still there are a lot of 'blood' horses jumping clears at all levels. Its all about the riding and training..... ETA the lower levels is dominated now a days by foreign horses so surely the showjumping results would be far better!
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I agree with the above (and ElleSJ is much more qualified to have an opinion :) ), but might qualify by saying there are very few riders at 3* level "having a go", as anyone not serious about their riding would have dropped out/stopped a few levels below but there are probably lots of people winging it at 1.20 even 1.30 who are close to the top end of their ability. Most people at 3* would be aiming at or have already been 4* but I'm sure there are a great number of people having a shot at Fox as an end goal. (It's a bit different in North America because there are lots of people jumping Amateurs even up to 1.30 who are not and will not be GP riders.) If you watched the top GP riders go around 1.20 I doubt you'd be seeing many poles. It's not really the height of the jumps, it's the place on the ladder.

Also, "breed" is not the same as "type". Most modern successful showjumpers have a lot of TB in them and are miles away from the old style heavy horses that jumped old style European courses. (In North America, traditionally jumping TBs and TB/carriage horse crosses, courses used to be MORE trappy and even less forgiving! Modern jumping horses have really "met in the middle".) But it does go to HOW the horse jumps and what they've selected for. One of the best known modern TB imports, Lauries Crusader, is known for NOT producing particularly good showjumpers! But horses that are "allergic to wood" have been selected for sport far more than they have been for racing, which is still the usual source of full TB breeding in this country. (Interestingly, I think you see more innately good jumping TBs in North America because of the influence of Hunter showing and traditional jumper breeding - there are sport TB breeders who actively hunt down the lines known for producing good jumpers.)

It's all academic if you've already got a horse, obviously. And there are lots of good jumpers and bad jumpers of all shapes and sizes. But I think when you're shopping, particularly for a horse to go on, it's worth considering what weak links a potential buy might have. Heck, it's hard enough to produce a "perfect" horse! And at least if you know a horse has a weakness you can work extra hard to produce the best possible result in that area.
 
benrolo said:
Really interesting thread, my daughter got a horse that had evented for 2 seasons with double clears every time out, but she nearly always has 1 fence down randomly in the middle of the course. However she has taken approximately 8 penalties off his dressage by really working at the flat work but it is frustrating, the only change we made was to jump him in a bubble bit because she felt he was too strong. He does style jumping in a snaffle and he gets really good marks and always clear although the jumps are smaller, I'm wondering whether she should bite the bullet and go back to a snaffle for the sj in case she's interfering too much. He doesn't seem to have a problem in lessons either.
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Does your instructor ever watch her at events? I had this conversation with someone on here recently. It seems very rare here - except for the top end riders, which is interesting - for instructors/trainers to ever see their people compete but things can be VERY different in competition. If something is working at home but not at an event, perhaps its worth investing in an assessment, so the trainer can see what's happening and offer more specific advice.
 
Very interesting thread! Its like a battle of the eventers and showjumpers haha. Well I used to event my last horse (just BE90 level) and she was another blessed with the double clears but crap at the dressage! :rolleyes: I always used to think she was a freak though, so careful so never had a pole showjumping, and fast and bold XC (being an ex-racehorse always helped!)

I've since hung up the body protector and bought a youngster for pure showjumping. I love both sports but still think eventing does take away the carefulness and "scope" of a horse. You would think after they hit a xc fence they wouldn't want to hit another fence again :p but I think its more down to the speed. SJ's need to be like a coiled spring and have all their power underneath them whereas XC is all about pace.

Although I do agree with people who are saying a SJ penelty is not as costly as a XC one! Same goes for ex-pointers and steeple chasers, they've learnt that hitting things is acceptable so they continue to do so in the SJ ring.
 
i think the pressure in the sj phase at a BE event is underestimated. you have one chance to get it right at that event at that level (if all goes well you won't be doing that event at that level next year, usually!), whereas at BS you can do another class that day, or the next weekend, etc etc. I remember virtually every pole my horses have ever had down in event sj (tragic, i know) but can't even remember how i did in the Newcomers and Foxhunters i've done... because i didn't feel that the pressure was on, i suppose.
you don't always get the chance to walk the course (vital imho), timings can go haywire if the steward isn't that great, warm-ups can be rather stressful with people hogging the warm-up fence etc etc... plus horses which are good xc don't tend to have that "allergic to wood" hyper-carefulness that's valued in a pure sj'er. i did a fair bit where i used to live in Staffs and couldn't believe how careful a lot of the horses were even when ridden inaccurately etc... and was told it is simply because the riders don't put up with the horse if it isn't careful, they'll move it on asap, unlike many event riders, who are happy to keep working on it if the other 2 phases are good!
 
I think also the warm up is treated much differently at BE - maybe due to the more taxing test of the xc looming ahead. In most BE warm ups (the good ones) there is a cross pole, upright and an oxer they are rarely moved, and there are few helpers. They are left at a set height for the class and thats it really.

At BS people tend to jump (for better or worse) until they have perfected it as much as possible on the day. Which of course means there is at least 1 bitchy helper for each rider, sometimes five :rolleyes: I think many eventers (more at lower levels I think) tend to throw their horse at each fence in the warm up, then go in, so there is less prep for the horse.

I think also the level of clears at higher level BS are due to it being more full of amateurs 'having a bash' as stated above - I know foxhunter is my aim to have a bash at :D Plus higher level BS courses are much more complesx imo than a bog standard BE course of the same height, generally meaner lines, more spooky fences etc, although I will concede that some BE events do have scary fillers, Bishop Burton springs to mind! :)
 
TarrSteps said:
Does your instructor ever watch her at events? I had this conversation with someone on here recently. It seems very rare here - except for the top end riders, which is interesting - for instructors/trainers to ever see their people compete but things can be VERY different in competition. If something is working at home but not at an event, perhaps its worth investing in an assessment, so the trainer can see what's happening and offer more specific advice.
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Yes- we're very lucky in that our local RC's base is about 10 minutes away from Al's instructor's home. She often comes and helps Al out at comps and watches her and her warm up and way opf riding has really benefited. At home, she is far less likely to feel the need to fire him into fences as there's no pressure!
 
Interesting thread and seen world wide.

Apart from people choosing horses for the X country phase, I wonder if level of fitness, tiredness after the X Country and nervous stress of the dressage, possible soreness in the mouth if the horse has been strong, could be part of the problem.

I remember one Olympic level horse that would send rails everywhere then the rider changed him to a bitless in the Show Jumping and bingo - clear rounds!

It could also be rider tiredness too - not riding so determindly, the competition is nearly over! It is interesting that so many people have the same problem
 
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