question for those who NEVER smack their horses

Tinypony said:
To be fair though, horses tend to be much more aware of what other horses are doing around them, they notice the warning signs, and it's more likely that he wouldn't have ended up biting another horse. Just an oblivious human who was fixed on attacking his private places. Humans are so slow on the uptake... :-)

Poor horse had probably been saying quite clearly that he was thinking of biting because it hurt, he meant it, he would, honestly, oh, if you won't listen... "CHOMP!".

This is why I think we probably need to avoid comparing what we do to what horses do to each other.
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Exactly, because humans don't react like horses. Because humans don't ask a few times and then punch someone. A horse will - swish a tail, ears back, snake a head - before they kick, bite whatever a horse does to demonstrate its displeasure. Now, I think it's displeasure or it wouldn't follow through with aggression. Humans have words to diffuse a situation, horses have a language but it's not ours. I don't think we are so clever at learning 'equus' but horses are very clever at learning 'human'. Diverting bad behaviour imo is just that, a diversion. Does a horse divert aggression in the herd, yes in many ways by being submissive, or foal yapping, or ceasing its irritating behaviour that started it in the first place. Horses are not humans but they are sentient beings with many emotions, maybe they have bad days who knows? Not every horse who kicks, or bites has had a bad past. Jeez, maybe they have a headache or have PMT, or are just impatient individuals - who really knows? The thing is, is that they live in our world with all the advantages/disadvantages that allows and if a swift reminder (like a mare nipping a foal) keeps us safe and the horse from the meat man why is that regarded as being so wrong as to react as another horse might?Horses are capable of aggression, so are humans - we are not so different after all.
 
doriangrey said:
Now, I think it's displeasure or it wouldn't follow through with aggression. Humans have words to diffuse a situation, horses have a language but it's not ours.
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Precisely! Horses can't say.... "oi that is hurting" or I'm scared leaving my mates or of the vet/water/hose etc. etc.
Nor can they understand what we say to them, so we can't reason with them through words, we have to train them and build up trust.
Also there is our tone of our voice, posture, body language which I believe they can read and very astutely.
 
amandap said:
Precisely! Horses can't say.... "oi that is hurting" or I'm scared leaving my mates or of the vet/water/hose etc. etc.
Nor can they understand what we say to them, so we can't reason with them through words, we have to train them and build up trust.
Also there is our tone of our voice, posture, body language which I believe they can read and very astutely.
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Is that trust though or submission? A horse will put up with pain, no doubt bits hurt, spurs hurt etc and yet they comply don't they?
 
doriangrey said:
Is that trust though or submission? A horse will put up with pain, no doubt bits hurt, spurs hurt etc and yet they comply don't they?
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That is THE question. Bits, spurs and sticks etc. don't hurt of their own accord, it's how they are used that can cause pain or fear. So I wonder if we want to control by fear of reprisal or through learning what is expected by consistent teaching. Gah! can't think how to word what I mean!

Words are hard!
 
Tinypony said:
To be fair though, horses tend to be much more aware of what other horses are doing around them, they notice the warning signs, and it's more likely that he wouldn't have ended up biting another horse. Just an oblivious human who was fixed on attacking his private places. Humans are so slow on the uptake... :-)

Poor horse had probably been saying quite clearly that he was thinking of biting because it hurt, he meant it, he would, honestly, oh, if you won't listen... "CHOMP!".
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I agree...maybe he was, but I haven't got eye's on the side of my head so I didn't see :).
This is something we do everyday, every summer for the last 12 + years with no drama's. That day I assume I got a sore bit...he bit me. I'm pretty sure there was no body language because it all happened very quickley. I don't think he gave it a thought. It hurt like buggery and I got mad...I would have slapped him had he been close enough....just like if he'd done it to his fieldmate, they may have done the same. He knew it because he legged it a few feet away. We were friends within minutes. ;)
 
_HP_ said:
I agree...maybe he was, but I haven't got eye's on the side of my head so I didn't see :).
This is something we do everyday, every summer for the last 12 + years with no drama's. That day I assume I got a sore bit...he bit me. I'm pretty sure there was no body language because it all happened very quickley. I don't think he gave it a thought. It hurt like buggery and I got mad...I would have slapped him had he been close enough....just like if he'd done it to his fieldmate, they may have done the same. He knew it because he legged it a few feet away. We were friends within minutes. ;)
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They forgive us really easily, whatever the argument was about.

I still think it's wrong to go on about relating to horses as they do to each other, or as a mare does to a foal. We relate to them as humans do to horses. If in our personal repertoire it includes hitting, then that's all it is, a human deciding to administer a reprimand or punishment.

I'm ashamed to say I seem to have a horse who has taught himself snogs. So who am I to talk about this? I'm not a great one for going up to horses and kissing noses all the time... only sometimes... Anyway, lovely Arab boy has started ambling up to me when I'm poo picking, standing in front of me, then gently pushing his muzzle to my face. Lovely, soft, pink, snog-able muzzle. I'm not sure where this came from, but he's been doing it every now and then for a couple of weeks, and the last couple of days it seems to have become routine. So I've come home all happy and glowing after a love-in with my horse. Very anthropomorphic! (Blush).
 
Tinypony said:
They forgive us really easily, whatever the argument was about.

I still think it's wrong to go on about relating to horses as they do to each other, or as a mare does to a foal. We relate to them as humans do to horses. If in our personal repertoire it includes hitting, then that's all it is, a human deciding to administer a reprimand or punishment.
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I agree with you, and I've said it before that horses do not see us as other horses because they are not that stupid. However, a physical reprimand is still a physical reprimand whoever is administering it. Just for the record I don't hit my horses.
 
I think it depends on the horse and will treat them all a little differently.

I have one gelding who you could literally raise an eyebrow at and he would apologise profusely for any misdemeanour. The obligation is on his handler to be super quiet and clear so that he is in his comfort zone, he isn't suitable for everyone to handle, and is very big, so potentially hazardous, you would never need to hit him

My mare who is angelic in every way, and sometimes needs a bellow across the barn, but that really is about it. She is always obliging and polite with everyone.

Another gelding who will think of new naughty acts on a daily basis, today he was brought in as usual, but unusually he was immediately tacked up to be ridden which made him really pissed off. He wanted to sleep as usual. I also went to the stable with a bridle, which I've never done before. He immediately turned his head into the corner of the stable and presented me with his bottom.
If you get after this horse he will come back at you. So instead of going in and not being sure what he was planning, I went and got a treat and stood in the doorway with it till he turned round & came over to me in a pleasant fashion.

I absolutely would hit this horse, but only if he were absolutely clear why.
 
Tinypony said:
They forgive us really easily, whatever the argument was about.

I still think it's wrong to go on about relating to horses as they do to each other, or as a mare does to a foal. We relate to them as humans do to horses.
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I don't tbh....and I'm not one for anthropomorphizing. My animals are animals and are treated as such, but knowing how they communicate with each other and using that to 'communicate' to each other ..animal to human and vice versa...is, in part, how we have moved on from treating them like machines.
:)
 
Ibblebibble said:
the fly analogy always seems rather silly to me, are you trying to say that because a horse can feel a fly on them it is so sensitive that a slap will really hurt/harm them?? surely if that were so , just the action of putting a saddle on them would send them crazy! all those nerve endings reacting to the saddle? and how about when they groom each other in the field, that's some pretty rough teeth work going on but do they collapse on the floor in agony or shock?, no they positively enjoy it! We can also feel a fly landing on us, only difference we have is that we can't twitch our skin to get rid of it.
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If you look at the original post you will see that the person I replied to thought her horse wouldn't feel 'smacks' because 'he is build like .....' I was stating that regardless of the horses build he would feel being hit!!! And that is physically not even starting on mental attitude or response... It's not necessarily the strength of touch, but the aggression/anger/emotion shown by the person....let alone the difference in feel from a massage or a hit with a stingy swishy whip or piece of polythene pipe....
 
Tinypony said:
To be fair though, horses tend to be much more aware of what other horses are doing around them, they notice the warning signs, and it's more likely that he wouldn't have ended up biting another horse. Just an oblivious human who was fixed on attacking his private places. Humans are so slow on the uptake... :-)

Poor horse had probably been saying quite clearly that he was thinking of biting because it hurt, he meant it, he would, honestly, oh, if you won't listen... "CHOMP!".

This is why I think we probably need to avoid comparing what we do to what horses do to each other.
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Exactly!!
 
I would just like to add that we once had a horse that was very nearly ruined by incorrect training when he was a baby. In all fairness, he was hand-reared (his mother had to be taken in for intensive surgery when he was young and she wouldn't take the foal back). They couldn't find a surrogate mother so they hand reared it. without another horse to teach it manners, it should really have had a firm upbringing which unfortunately it didn't. He was completely mollycoddled and when he bit people his owners just reassured and stroked him.

Anyway, he became a brilliant jumper and his (new) owners sent him to us as a newly backed four year old to start his competing career. He was an absolute nightmare, if you did something he didn't like he would fly at you at with his teeth, he was completely anti-social around other horses and it took a good three years to re school him!
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
I would just like to add that we once had a horse that was very nearly ruined by incorrect training when he was a baby. In all fairness, he was hand-reared (his mother had to be taken in for intensive surgery when he was young and she wouldn't take the foal back). They couldn't find a surrogate mother so they hand reared it. without another horse to teach it manners, it should really have had a firm upbringing which unfortunately it didn't. He was completely mollycoddled and when he bit people his owners just reassured and stroked him.

Anyway, he became a brilliant jumper and his (new) owners sent him to us as a newly backed four year old to start his competing career. He was an absolute nightmare, if you did something he didn't like he would fly at you at with his teeth, he was completely anti-social around other horses and it took a good three years to re school him!
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I'm not sure what your point is here? Are you saying that he needed to be "smacked" to stop this? Are you saying that doing things any other way wouldn't have worked? Hand reared horses are notoriously difficult... and have problems blending in with groups of horses if this isn't dealt with properly... so what? Are you talking about re-schooling as stopping him flying at people with his teeth or ridden work? If it was 3 years to stop the unwanted attacks then I'd say that was pretty slow work.

There seems to be an assumption by some that anyone who isn't advocating hitting a horse or similar to deal with unwanted behaviour is going to end up with some sort of equine brat. It's simply not the case.
 
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I was loathe to respond to this thread and admit to not having read it in its entirety. However, my daughter's four horses are the best mannered horses you could ever wish to meet and this situation has not arisen by her being "soft" with them. By not being soft, I do not mean she has beaten them into submission, but she has been firm and yes, she has hit them as necessary (as they are large creatures and need to know who's boss!). She loves her horses dearly, but will not allow misbehaviour and, as a result, there is not one of her horses who plays up in any way whatsoever when being handled. You put them in their stable and they wait for the "Okay!" release command before they stuff their noses in their feed buckets- they're just SO polite! All their behaviour is totally contrary to my liveries' horses' behaviour........total load of numpties who let their horses get away with murder! In one particular case (and I'm NOT exaggerating here), if this pony in question was a horse, it would have killed someone by now - nasty, vicious pony that has double-barrelled both me and it's owner on numerous occasions! Hey, but guess what, it wouldn't try it on with my daughter! It's a pussy cat for her to handle!
 
I rarely smack or hit my horses, but on three or four occasions I remember doing so with horses that I had quite recently acquired and were difficult - barging, kicking, etc. On all occasions my response worked even though I wasn't proud of myself and the horses just seemed to realise that I was in charge and not them.

With the another horse she tended to threaten to bite and kick in the stable but it improved as she got to know me and I didn't get too cross with her as she had issues and I learnt to deal with it rather than confront her as I thought it was fear/agression response. However in the field she would tend to come up as I was poo picking and turn her quarters towards me and threaten to kick. I tried shouting at her, waving my arms, etc. etc, but nothing stopped her, so in the end when she threatened, I threw the rubber feed bowl at her quarters, with force. I had to do that 3 times and after that she never threatened me again. (She was wonderful to ride, perfect!)

I would like to ask, though, what is the best way to deal with a horse that has kicked out at another horse. I don't mean a playful buck, but a deliberate kick to say "stay away." I think that IS one time when a good whack or two from the rider is called for, but does everyone agree with that?
 
Horses are not out to get us! lol There seems to be such a mix up between consistent training be it firm or softer and thinking we only need to boss them! Why does it get adversarial with horses?
 
amandap said:
Horses are not out to get us! lol There seems to be such a mix up between consistent training be it firm or softer and thinking we only need to boss them! Why does it get adversarial with horses?
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IMO it is because too many people do not understand boundary setting in general, not just with horses, but with their children, their dogs, etc They allow some behaviours one day but not the next and then wonder why the animal or person doesn't understand.
 
Tinypony said:
I was watching an amazing trainer, Phillip Nye, working with a young horse. The horse went to swing his head over Phil, who raised his hand to block it. (That's what good trainers do I suppose, anticipate rather than punish). The result was that his hand met the side of the young horse's head, the young horse half reared and boxed him to the ground. Phil being Phil bounced up easily and carried on as if nothing had happened.
Afterwards there was some talk from people about the horse being nasty, aggressive, and having a certain "look" in his eye. When Phil got to hear about this he was quite amazed. He reminded people that young male horses play by rearing and boxing with each other. He explained that he unthinkingly invited the horse to play when he half turned and blocked the head swinging. All I'm saying is that sometimes when horses piss us off they aren't being aggressive, bolshy or disrespectful - they are just horses being horses.
Horse that is a bit energised at a show and hits it's owner with it's head by swinging it around above them isn't often going to be being aggressive. They are just looking about and the person was in the wrong place. We all know that horses tend to forget we re there when they are a bit worried. It's up to us to deal with that. The person went wrong a while before, by maybe standing too close, or not teaching their horse to give them a bit of room. Personally I think that's why good trainers like Fburton find less and less reasons to smack and get directly physical, they deal with some simple basics that stick with the horses when they aren't quite "with it".
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I found myself nodding vigorously while reading this (probably not a great idea as I have a raging headache) . . . very thoughtful/insightful post.

P
 
When I first got mine he was a very bad rearer and boxes he caught my nose and had his front feet on my shoulders and my first reaction was to belt him. Big mistake as he came from a home who had done lots of it before. He went at me hammer and tongs and i got hurt. Now he rarely does it I read the signs try hard to stop it in its tracks before he really start and found with him ignore the bad praise the good like when he comes down and walks on nicely I will not raise to a fight with him I have found it works better for him. My others get a dam good smack if their naughty or step out of line rare now but needed every now and again my worse one at the moment is my old boy he knows iv gone soft on him.
 
Tinypony said:
I'm not sure what your point is here? Are you saying that he needed to be "smacked" to stop this? Are you saying that doing things any other way wouldn't have worked? Hand reared horses are notoriously difficult... and have problems blending in with groups of horses if this isn't dealt with properly... so what? Are you talking about re-schooling as stopping him flying at people with his teeth or ridden work? If it was 3 years to stop the unwanted attacks then I'd say that was pretty slow work.

There seems to be an assumption by some that anyone who isn't advocating hitting a horse or similar to deal with unwanted behaviour is going to end up with some sort of equine brat. It's simply not the case.
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Im saying that if he had been disciplined (this could be a smack, a growl or simply pushing him back when he tries to barge) when he was small and easy to control, we would not have ended up with such a poorly behaved horse when he was big and potentially dangerous.

As for taking three years to correct his behavior, he was very bad. He became bad to ride and if he didn't want to do something, he wouldn't.
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
Im saying that if he had been disciplined (this could be a smack, a growl or simply pushing him back when he tries to barge) when he was small and easy to control, we would not have ended up with such a poorly behaved horse when he was big and potentially dangerous.

As for taking three years to correct his behavior, he was very bad. He became bad to ride and if he didn't want to do something, he wouldn't.
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Well, I don't think anyone here is saying that you shouldn't do something about dangerous behaviour. Or that it isn't better to address the question of "manners" (I hate that word in relation to horses...) earlier. We're talking about how that is approached differently by different people. That replies to Keeperscottage as well.

As for the three years, I'm still not quite clear if you are talking about ridden problems that were addressed with schooling, or dangerous stuff. But either way, any trainer I know would have wondered what they were doing wrong if it took 3 years to make things safer for horse and rider. That would kind of support the idea that if you're doing something and it doesn't work it needs changing.

Having said all that, I'm not attacking or anything, we are all doing what we do to the best of our abilities. I've got some issues I'd still like to work on with my horses, but then I don't profess to be some sort of great trainer.
 
Very rarely slap my mare, shes 99% of the time an angel now but ill admit its taken a few slaps when shes thoroughly crossed the line and put either me or herself in danger - to get there!
Regularly hitting her would get you nowhere .. This song sums her up ..

You hit me once,
Ill hit you back,
You gave a kick,
I gave a slap :p

Sooo not worth starting a fight!
 
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