question re: half siblings?

[mbequest]

This is not directed at anyone, but rather just a question, so please, no-one take offence if you have made any posts re siblings etc.......

I was always taught that for your horse to have a Half Sibling they were out of the same dam, but with different sires, NOT by the same stallion but out of completely different mares.

Discuss...................

 

[oldvic]

Yes, that is correct. If they are by the same stallion but out of different mares then they are not half brothers or sisters.

 

[Maizy]

V interesting question, I too would like to know how to refer to my horse's family! My sister has her 'sister' who is by the same dam, but by mines grandsire! It would sound very promiscuous if they were humans.

Perhaps also worth asking in breeding if you have not already?

 

[Baggybreeches]

Yep that is my understanding.

 

[Maizy]

Yes, that is correct. If they are by the same stallion but out of different mares then they are not half brothers or sisters.

So is there a term for horses which share the same sire but not dam? Or is it just a case of 'is by same sire as...' sorry if this sounds a daft question!

 

[Annabel_star]

Thats always been my take on it too.

 

[bigboyrocky]

Interesting, i never knew that. Do you know why that is, because they are still related?

 

[tricksibell85]

My post was very tongue in cheek re. my boy! They have the same "dad" so in my eyes they are half brothers. Both have the sire Captain Maverick.

Sorry for not being "clued" up on how it all works. It makes no logical sense that if they have the same sire that they cant be classed as related, but whatever my bad!

Will remember for next time...I stand corrected.

 

[Annabel_star]

My post was very tongue in cheek re. my boy! They have the same "dad" so in my eyes they are half brothers. Both have the sire Captain Maverick.

Sorry for not being "clued" up on how it all works. It makes no logical sense that if they have the same sire that they cant be classed as related, but whatever my bad!

Will remember for next time...I stand corrected.

When i see offspring of my boy's Dad i still think of them as half brothers!

I think its because there are often hundreds of foals from a certain sire especially in racing.

 

[little_flea]

Absolutely - just half siblings if by the same mare.

 

[_jetset_]

I wonder why that is though... If you are talking about dogs, they are half siblings aren't they if by the same sire???

 

[soupdragon71]

Exactly! Although I still think of my old boy as the half brother to Papillon and Spotthedifference - especially as they all look so alike. But I really should refer to him as 'by the same sire as....'. Just doesn't sound so good!!!

 

[LEC]

I am guessing its because stallions can produce over 100 offspring a year if particularly prolific so nothing spectacularly special about them if they are by same stallion.

 

[Rosiefan]

I didn't know that either but Rosie has two 'by the same sire' and although they look very different from each other, their behaviour is very similar. It's all in the genes

 

[OneInAMillion]

I never knew this, but very interesting

 

[photo_jo]

Definitely only half brother and sister if they share the same dam, usually referred to as paternal half brother/sister if same sire. Also a horse is always 'by' a stallion and 'out' of a mare.

 

[Dexter]

I refer to my 2 as half brothers. I know its not strictly correct, but they were born on the same day within 15 minutes of each other, in stables opposite each other. They've always been together. While they are out of very different mares and look different, there are soo many similarities.

 

[millitiger]

One of my pet hates is horses advertised such as 'half brother to Totilas' when actually it is just by Gribaldi.

 

[avthechav]

...Being a scientist in my eyes a half sibling shares half the genes with either parent and half with their sibling so although I understand the reasoning about numbers with prolific stallions it still seems strange on a genetic level

However I have heard lots talked about the mare having more influence than the stallion, and although this makes no scientific sense I guess if you look at a given stallions offspring there is a HUGE variation in performance. On an anecdotal note Av's breeders persisted with Av's dam despite her foals being hopeless, they sent her to Averti, Double Trigger, Best of the Best and 1 other that I cant remember and all of them were not very good racers despite having lots of different genetic influences.....strange!

 

[DarkHorseB]

Also a horse is always 'by' a stallion and 'out' of a mare.

Yes it is amazing the number of adverts I have seen that get that wrong!!

 

[mbequest]

One of my pet hates is horses advertised such as 'half brother to Totilas' when actually it is just by Gribaldi.

This is the one that really gets on my nerve and hence the reason for the post......

 

[TarrSteps]

It is generally considered that the mare has more influence on the "finished product" than the stallion does. I would say my observation and experience would suggest that horses with the same dam are more likely to be more similar, although as in any family, individuals are individuals.

I will say though, there are more "super mares" that seem to produce good ones almost every time even with very different stallions. What's more, these mares often produce winners in different disciplines! Sure, it's a numbers game and a good mare is more likely to only be bred to good stallions whereas even a good stallion is not going to get only good, suitable mares. But still, I think there is something to it and I'd take a foal from a proven producing mare much more seriously than one from a stallion with some good results.

 

[meardsall_millie]

Agree with this Tarrsteps. Did you see the interesting article in last weeks H&H about the sale of some proven broodmares - some astounding prices achieved!

 

[TarrSteps]

I didn't get it last week but will search a copy out, thanks.

A lot of studbooks give very prestigious mare prizes and it's interesting to see how often almost every foal the winner has produced has been above average. I knew one mare who produced (by different stallions obviously) a winning racehorse, a top show horse, an approved warmblood stallion, a GP dressage horse and a hunter (American style) my boss at the time sold for $150k!! Another friend of mine has a mare who was top TB mare for the Hanoverian inspections and she sells every foal for fantastic money, often before they hit the ground. A worthy investment, a mare like that!

 

[Dexter]

It is generally considered that the mare has more influence on the "finished product" than the stallion does. I would say my observation and experience would suggest that horses with the same dam are more likely to be more similar, although as in any family, individuals are individuals.

In my case its been the other way round. My 2 are out of a 14.2hh arab x connie JA mare, and a 16.2hh TB intermediate eventer. They are currently the same height give or take an inch! and have alot of similarities.

There is also another mare on the yard by the same stallion and when I saw her i did a double take, she is pretty much a carbon copy of the youngster out of the TB just older and bigger. I'm havent seen her move or be worked, and it might be down to the stallion throwing pretty much the same face marking on pretty much all of his offspring?! I've also seen another gelding by Mojo and he looks exactly like mine will turn out! They all seem to have the same leg conformation, which is good! and the same neck, which is crap as the neck is the weakest point on both of mine!

 

[Gamebird]

Agree with this Tarrsteps. Did you see the interesting article in last weeks H&H about the sale of some proven broodmares - some astounding prices achieved!

7 figure prices for elderly flat TB broodmares!

 

[Dexter]

Just to add, their personalties are different. Dexter is generally MUCH sharper but responds better, his mum was a soft touch. Pride is 'special' we refer to him as rain man We cant decide if hes an idiot or a genius His mum was horrible to him and kept him in line much better. Hes generally more laid back than Dex but when he starts hes horrendous! Proper toys out of the pram tantrums. Dexter is generally more laid back and 'easier' Its odd, given their mums I'd expect Pride to be the easier!

 

[TarrSteps]

I don't think mares necessarily throw their own temperaments or that it's even that simple. A few of the very successful mares I know don't actually look all that special themselves, although some of them did when they were younger. And there are stallions that REALLY stamp their get, to an uncanny degree, especially in looks. There are also stallions which consistently improve some things from the mare. It's not just about the genes, it's about the apparent "power" of those genes. (Which is why I think pedigree study has to be about the big picture, not just about parents.)

The fact is very few horses know enough of a family to really judge and unless people are proper swots they're more likely to follow stallions and see the similarities there. It's just not hard science to say you'll get this or that. (People who knew one of my parents often think I'm more like the parent they knew, even though I don't think I'm like either of them particularly.) I find it most interesting to work with successive groups of horses out of different mares but by the same stallion(s) - they often break down into groups where you see specific traits group together. But I'd still say, on average and overall, the offspring of one mare are more similar than the offspring of one stallion.

 

[ecrozier]

Interesting. Girl I bought Roo from bred him and another by same stallion. They are a year apart and do certainly have similar characteristics and markings, but I'd definately say that roo and his mum are very much peas from a pod! They look alike, behave alike and have similar dislikes as well despite having been weaned and seperated for good at 9 months! Hope he does continue to take after her tho she's a great jumper.

 

[TarrSteps]

I meant ". . . few people know . . " not "horses" . . . I think the snow is affecting my brain!