Questions/Discussion/Possible debate!

[Vizslak]

Right I have been meaning to post this for a while and would appreciate different thoughts and opinions on this, particularly from those with individual breed specific knowledge.

My first question;
(I must point out this has nothing to do with F's pending hip score results)
If your breed had a score average of 12 and your very nice dog was scored 6/6 would you breed from it or not? In addition does anyone know the probability of that dogs pups being scored higher than 6/6 and therefore deemed unsuitable to breed from (assuming the dog was mated with another of lower scoring)

Secondly; Has anyone got any historical (or current) knowledge of difficulties with breeds and the gene pool being significantly reduced. That is to say, do you remember a point in time in your breed where one stud dog was used (possibly more than he should have been) and the gene pool was noticebly narrowed. What happened a decade on? Was there a future problem created from one dog being over used? How was it delt with? This leads to my third and final (for now!) question;

Do you think that stud dogs should have a limit placed on the number of litters they are allowed to sire in their lifetime?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Just a quick answer, as I'm cooking tea!
I think most people look for a stud dog with lower than breed average score. I personally would be more prepared to use a bitch with a score near the average than a dog. As I know to my cost, low scoring parents can produce high scoring offspring, but am not aware of the probability of this occurring, sorry (but if it was my dog expect it would be high

)
There have definitely been instances when a dog has been overused in our breed, but I think in the majority of cases the fact that new lines come in from Germany has helped dilute things. In the 60/70s there was a problem with epilepsy due to a very successful dog producing it but once it was discovered the majority (though sadly not all) of breeders were very careful to avoid the line, or dilute as much as possible.
And yes, I do think stud dogs should be limited. It has happened for years in Germany.
All the above are of course relating to GSDs, hopefully CC will come on with more facts (I'm a bit out of touch now), and I will return to my chops

Oh, and when did you change your name?

 

[CorvusCorax]

1) A total of 12 is not tooooo bad. Don't think I would breed from anything over that.

2) When I was growing up a dog callled Ch Cito was probably the sire of his heyday, then Int Ch Chris and Int Ch Nilo,
Chris was Nilo's sire, and Chris himself was by a dog called Uran a double Sieger and very heavily used.
Linebreeding is not uncommon in Germany and every year the Sieger is promoted as THE dog to use, to promote the best points and to correct any faults that may be big issues that particular year.
Personally speaking, I know of no major, earth shattering faults transmitted by these males - overbreeding on Cito did cause colour-paling. Although if you inbreed closely, you will always see a little neuroses, IMO.
Uran was a great producer and you can still see his stamp today, I think he was a great dog.
Zamp, the Sieger of three years ago, is probably still THE dog of the past few years and his grandchildren still sell well and perform well.
I think the breed is so numerous you can find lots of good quality outcrosses. The 2009 Sieger was a total wildcard with no linebreeding in five generations. His daughter was the Siegerin.

MM will remember a certain dog (L of G) who was a police dog and a complete wild card, who just happened to sire an International Champion. Because his son was so successful, he was heavily used and we ourselves had son of the champion who was typical of this line - he had a pretty extreme temperament, from the police dog.
MM will/may

also tell you about a dog her mum bred who was used, to great success.

Epilepsy was common in the GSD a long time ago because of the use of a very small number of top dogs from two kennels in particular and was only stopped in magnitude because a number of breeders stepped up to the plate, held up their hands and did the right thing.


3) BUT I do agree that dogs should only serve certain number of bitches and I think Germany have a limit on the amount of bitches to be served by one dog in a year, although they are still very big on progeny groups.

My bugbear right now is the shysters who I am aware of who have a couple of very good dogs, imported, health tests, top qualifications and winnings - but letting them cover unscored, unproven, substandard females of unknown breeding, taking the money, ta very much - what is the point??????

And then there was the 'gentleman' who, back in the 80s, had an AMAZING German import, top health scores, won everything in sight.
Once he started throwing bad hips, questions were asked. Turns out this dog had no working qualifications and no health tests and was not the dog he said it was at all.
Thank God DNA testing is here now and people like him cannot operate.

Wow, I just wrote a novel.....

 

[Vizslak]

''Wow I just wrote a novel'' I knew you would CC! Infact I was relying on it!

Thank you both for your input. I think the 12 scoring is a tricky one personally, although in the grand scheme of things its fairly low it is our breeds average, so right on the line. I think personally I would morally choose not to breed from a dog that was scored average. It may interest you to know, all my questions relate to the same dog.

I can see that the issue of narrowing the gene pool can be solved in the future by importing more dogs, though given that in this particular case you would still have to be careful that anything imported wasn't also closely related, such is the dogs popularity. Our breed in this country is also significantly smaller in numbers than the gsd and whilst new registrations are on the up the gene pool is narrowing dramatically almost exponentially to the new registrations. Recent circumstances seem to dictate that this is likely to get worse in the next year. Saddly your point about the ''shysters'' CC can also be applied to an alarming amount of these registrations.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Get over to Hungary with a big load of cash and don't get fobbed off with sloppy seconds

I know what you mean, we have a couple of Gallery of Champions booklets from the 1950s and the amount of times some dogs were appearing in the same pedigrees, on every page, is scary to look at and to be honest it is that sort of thing which caused the problems we are still seeing - and fighting - today. There is much more awareness now, hopefully, and a lot less excuses.

Interestingly though - one dog in particular, a German import in the 1950s was numerous in the pedigrees of both working and breed champions and back then there were many more dual champions, including one notable International (Eng and Irish) breed champion who was also an obedience champion.

Some of the best dogs in the UK have been a mix between new German and very old English bloodlines (Chris being one)

 

[Vizslak]

Hmmm I like your Hungary idea! LOL

Seriously though F is 'pure' and won't be put to anything related to this dog if we breed from her. I am not adding to the potential problem. I just won't do it, even though I'm more likely to get a ShCh out of her if I did. I have even talked of importing her future mate but I already have one stud dog living here so its not practical unless I did it in a partnership.
MM I forgot to answer your question...I changed it last night, the new name was CC's idea!

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think you are doing the right thing. It is a problem in all breeds - you can look at your own dog, what you can do with them and how far you can go with them and their progeny in the short term, or you can think long term and you can think about the breed as a whole.

For instance - not that I am breeding from her, as I can look at her objectively and while her lines are good, I know she is not good enough, and she hasn't been properly scored (prelim hips and elbows and they do look good) - there are two dogs I would consider if I was breeding my female, both are imported, one a working import from Germany, the other showlines (with qualifications) from Canada. I like them very much and if I buy again I will get an adult with their sort of breeding.

ETA - is AI a flyer, if you can't afford to take her abroad?

 

[MurphysMinder]

Knew I could rely on you CC

You mention Consort (well I presume thats who you mean as Granit wasn't used much at all

), he certainly improved proportions, and probably temperament as he was so laid back he was almost horizontal, however wasn't the best producing sire hip wise He had a Breeders Letter (before hip scoring) and although he produced some good hips he also produced some shockers, my girl with the hips in the high 90s was one However in his defence there were far fewer bitches x rayed then so he could have been used on bitches with poor hips.
It must be hard when there is a small gene pool within the breed, as CC says would AI be an option for Flora? I imagine the cost of taking a bitch abroad isn't too prohibitive now, Evie was the product of such a journey, but of course Hungary isnt as accessible as Germany.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ah, the two big grey fellas, I always get mixed up!

Was there any reason that Granit was not so widely used?

Just reading back, Nilo was not that prolific as a sire compared to Cito or Chris but he remains the breed record holder in terms of UK and Ireland winnings/top dog ratings and was a product of that Uran-Chris line, he was very impressive in the flesh. Sorry to muddy the water

Germanic hijack over

 

[Vizslak]

I hadn't thought of the AI route, yes I guess that would be a possibility.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

First of all we use letters and not numbers over here, as far as I've been able to understand it :
0 - 10 in UK = A in Sweden.
11 - 25 in UK = B in Sweden.
26 - 35 in UK = C in Sweden.
36 - 50 in UK = D in Sweden.
51 - 106 in UK = E in Sweden.


If a breed has HD score requirements then SKK says that you can mate your dog/bitch with A scored hips, to a bitch/dog with A, B or C scored hips.
If your dog/bitch has B scored hips, you can mate her to a bitch/dog with A or B scored hips.
If your dog/bitch has C scored hips, you can only mate her to a bitch/dog with A scored hips.
Only if your dog/bitch gets D or E scored hips are you not allowed to breed it.

Though that we're allowed breed dogs/bitches that I think could have up to a score of 35 to a bitch/dog with a max score of 10, we are considered to have a very successful anti-HD programme where the number of dogs with bad hips are decreasing.



Sort of a footnote, due to polygene inheritance and also being affected to environmental factors it is as follows.
Dog parents with good HD results are more likely to get puppies that also gets good HD results but they can also get puppies with bad results.
Dog parents with bad HD results are more likely to get puppies with bad HD results but they can also get puppies with good HD results.



So personally I'd say that as long as her hip score are allowed to breed from, other things like temperament and if you will be able to find homes for the puppies, would matter more to me.






About the problems with matador breeding as it is called in Sweden, in Norwegian Buhunds there was one stud dog who was used a lot and in the nineties it began turning up Buhunds with HD faults and that stud dog was found to be the common denominator.




An example of gene pool damage by noticeably narrowing the gene pool, is the Basenji. I can't remember where I read all about it, so this is as I recall it + the information that I have found again.

In the eighties it turned out that there was a non lethal disease that affected the Basenjis but there was also already a test you could take and check all dogs/bitches for if they were either non carrier, carrier or affected. If you only bred non carrier's to non carrier's you would eradicate the non lethal disease and one 'large'/influential breeder set out on this mission.



Non carrier = have inherited one healthy gene from each parent and thus doesn't carry any gene for the disease.

Carrier = have inherited one 'bad' gene from one parent <u>but can never develop the inherited disease</u> because it has inherited one healthy gene from the other parent.

Affected = have inherited one 'bad' gene from each parent and can/will develop the inherited disease.



Since people wanting to buy a Basenji could go to this breeder and buy a guaranteed non carrier, soon nobody wanted to buy a Basenji unless its parents were non carriers, after all, why should you buy a Basenji that could be a gene carrier of an inherited disease, whether it is non lethal or not?
And the disease was soon eradicated, great you might think? The gene pool shrank and along came Fanconi syndrome, an inherited disorder affecting the kidneys ability to function and no gene test was available to know if you were breding affected Basenjis or not.



According to Wikipedia, this disease usually doesn't show itself until the age of between 4 and 8 years of age, some as early as 3 years and some as late as 10 years of age. And since you shouldn't breed old bitches, waiting until all dogs and bitches was over 8 years of age until breeding, is not exactly an option.

Not until 2007 came a <u>predictive</u> gene test for Fanconi syndrome in Basenjis and it can only accurately determine the <u>probability</u> of a dog carrying the gene for Fanconi Syndrome.


Gene carriers of Fanconi syndrome are unusually common in the Basenji breed but Fanconi syndrome is treatable and the risk for organ damage is reduced if treatment begins early.





Had people kept their heads calm with the first disease, Fanconi syndrome would probably not affect such a large part of the Basenji breed as it does today. As I understand it, Basenji breeders are now recommended to do what they should have done the first time (of course, I know, that is always easy to say in hindsight).




Probably non carriers can be bred to a probably non carrier or a probably carrier or a probably non carrier/carrier with unclear result.

Probably carriers should preferably only be bred to a probably non carrier.

Probably non carrier/carrier with an unclear result that can't pinpoint which probable category it belongs to, should be regarded as a probable carrier and thereby preferably only be bred to a probably non carrier.

Probably affected dogs should only be bred to probably non carriers. <font color="purple">(Are you dizzy yet? Or was that all clear and elementary?)</font>




Just as the first disease, Fanconi syndrome needs to be inherited with one 'bad' gene from each parent to develop the disease but since the result of this gene test is only probable, there is a risk that if the parent with probable non carrier result is instead a carrier, bred to another carrier, the risk for breeding affected dogs of course increases.

But since the gene pool have already been narrowed once and we now know what happened then, the breed can probably not afford the risk of narrowing its gene pool further.



Had this been done with the first disease, were the gene test result wasn't probable without definitive, the breed would soon only have had non carriers and carriers, that neither would have been able to develop the first disease.


Good luck with Flora.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I really wish I had your knowledge of genetics Finny, and have to say you make it easier to understand than some of the stuff I have read.
CC, I'm not really sure why Granit wasn't used, I think if was maybe his colour, sables weren't fashionable then and there were flashy black and tans with similar breeding who perhaps got the studs.
Sorry, hijacking again.

 

[Vizslak]

Your not hijacking MM, all breeding debate welcome!
Thanks Finny, thats all very informative, as I said this isn't related directly to Flora or my plans with her but more to do with my concerns for the breed as a whole.
I like the scoring system used there, it makes it clearer I think...obviously I also like the fact there are mandatory rules about it over there while no such system is in place over here and if someone wanted they could breed a 50/50 scored dog with another 50/50 dog. As said before we could really learn alot from Sweden!

 

[Vizslak]

Right, interestingly this morning my club news letter has come through the post. In it (as well as a lovely right up on my girl with a piccy from our club champ show) is our breed records for the first 2 quarters of 2009. This may help some of you with some perpective of numbers etc in the particular breed and enable you to give further views. 1st quarter (jan-march) out of 1,910 puppies born this dog sired 457 of them, next highest number sired is 138 and this is considerably higher than any other of the 36 studs listed.
second quarter (april-june) out of 1,799 puppies born he produced 485 of them, only 34 studs listed, another well used dog produced 210.
Thoughts?
ets if i get time later I will sit and figure out how many of the other studs are his sons.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]

1st quarter (jan-march) out of 1,910 puppies born this dog sired 457 of them, next highest number sired is 138 and this is considerably higher than any other of the 36 studs listed.
Second quarter (april-june) out of 1,799 puppies born he produced 485 of them, only 34 studs listed, another well used dog produced 210.
Thoughts?
ets if i get time later I will sit and figure out how many of the other studs are his sons.

[/ QUOTE ]

***And deep breath in - I will be calm - out - in - I will be calm - out - in - I am calm - out, reads the numbers again***

*sigh* What are they thinking? Your poor breed does not only have one over used stud dog, it has more than one!

If/when their sons and daughters are also used in breeding, your breed could soon be full of dogs that has these few dogs on both the male- and the female side of their pedigree... AAAARGH!

If you do breed Flora, I highly suggest you try and find a stud dog that is as unrelated to those matador stud dogs as ever possible.





***FinnishLapphund tries to come up with a spell that will make all matador stud dog's testicles shrink and fall off***

***Throws in an extra spell for the stupid owners***

 

[Vizslak]

Yes this is my point Finny, this is my point!

I was wondering if my concerns were unfounded....it seems not!

 

[MurphysMinder]

I find those figures worrying too. Out of those pups produced by the one dog how many of the dams carry similar lines further back too? It does not seem healthy for the breed at all, surely you aren't the only one concerned?
When Cito and his offspring were very popular as CC stated, there were soon several adverts for dogs not carrying his lines, and because the breed is numerically large I think GSDs avoided major problems, but the percentage of pups by only 2 dogs in Viszlas is surely going to be problematical in the future

 

[Vizslak]

Its unlikely as he is an import that lines are being crossed now in regards to the bitches he is mating...its the dogs being produced a decade on that concern me. It will soon be difficult to find a dog without him in their pedigree.
Others are concerned yes but nothing seems to be done about it. And obviously not enough are concerned or they would'nt be using him! I cringe everytime someone tells me they have him lined up as the next sire to their pups

 

[CorvusCorax]

Wow, you do need some new lines....seriously, I would think a trip to Hungary could be very beneficial indeed - is there a breed governing body in the home country?

Like MM says and in reference to those 1950s books, the danger will be that you will end up with very closed pedigrees with the same names appearing over and over and over again, which seems archaic, but will be happening in the noughties

I remember those ads MM - CARRIES NO LINES TO CITO/CITO FREE

 

[Spudlet]

QR
OK, I know nothing about breeding but JAYSUS!!!! HOW MANY PUPS FROM ONE DOG?????

When you read those kind of stats - hell yes there should be a limit on the number of times a stud can be used!

 

[Vizslak]

I'm glad you all feel the same as me, its a hard discussion to have within the breed and its nice to get some impartial views on it.

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]

I remember those ads MM - CARRIES NO LINES TO CITO/CITO FREE

[/ QUOTE ]

You still get those with Springer ads - BADGERCOURT/RYTEX FREE

Although they are few and far between and almost every Working Springer has them somewhere if you go far back enough!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
I really wish I had your knowledge of genetics Finny, and have to say you make it easier to understand than some of the stuff I have read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you.



If I'm allowed to devote myself some more on the subject about the problems with a shrinking gene pool.

I will again use the Basenji as an example (this is based on what I've heard and read).

A disease turns up but it is one of those diseases that is inherited in a 'simple' way, every individual have two genes that concerns the possibility of developing the disease and they have inherited one gene from each parent but there is a test that shows whether potential stud dogs/brood bitches are non carriers (ZZ), carriers (ZQ) or affected (QQ).


Non carrier (ZZ) bred to a non carrier (ZZ) = all puppies will be non carriers (ZZ), because they can only inherit one Z from each parent = ZZ.

Non carrier (ZZ) bred to a carrier (ZQ) = most likely some puppies will be non carriers (ZZ) and some will be carriers (ZQ) but none can be affected, since one parent only has Z genes to pass on.

Non carrier (ZZ) bred to an affected (QQ) = all puppies will be carriers (ZQ) but none will be affected.



Carrier (ZQ) bred to carrier (ZQ) = puppies can be either non carriers (ZZ), carriers (ZQ) or affected (QQ).

Carrier (ZQ) bred to affected (QQ) = some puppies might be carriers (ZQ) but some will be affected (QQ).

Affected (QQ) bred to affected (QQ) = all puppies will be affected (QQ).



If you limit the breeding to the three first possible mating combinations, you will at the worst still only have some litters that produce 100% carriers (ZQ) but no offspring can develop the disease and the gene pool will probably stay in about the same.

If you limit the breeding to the first two possible mating combinations, you will produce a majority of non carriers (ZZ) and some carriers (ZQ) but no offspring can develop the disease and with careful breeding, the gene pool can stay in about the same.

If you limit the breeding to only the first possible mating combination, you will soon have eradicated the disease because only non carriers (ZZ) will be born but the gene pool will almost always shrink.



Still, thinking that it will make their breed healthier, one influential breeder decided to only breed Basenji dogs/bitches that did not carry the gene for the first disease and soon the rest of the breeders followed.



Then Fanconi syndrome turned up. Just as the first disease, the Fanconi syndrome (from now on referred to as FS) is inherited in a 'simple' way so if a parent was carrying the gene for FS was mated to another dog not carrying that gene, some puppies would not carry the gene for FS and some would. A carrier of FS mated to another carrier of FS could produce non carriers, carriers and affected etc.




Now, as I understand it, there is two possibilities for why/how FS turned up,


1 : Unknowingly to the breeders, some Basenji's were carriers of the gene for Fanconi syndrome but with a larger gene pool, there was less risk that a stud dog carrying the FS gene would be mated to a brood bitch carrying the FS gene and such a breeding had yet not happened when the first disease turned up.

Those carrying the gene for the first disease was not the same as those carrying the gene for FS and with fewer dogs/bitches left to choose from, more dogs/bitches carrying the unknown FS gene was allowed to breed and sooner or later dogs/bitches developing FS turned up.






2 : FS did not already exist in the breed but by not only excluding the dogs/bitches affected (QQ) by the first disease, without also the carriers (ZQ), there was fewer dogs/bitches left to choose between when breeding and the inbreeding percentage probably increased. With a higher inbreeding percentage, the risk for genetic mutations to turn up increases and in this case the FS gene turned up and with a more narrow selection of dogs/bitches to choose from, the gene spread fast and sooner or later dogs/bitches developing FS turned up.





<font color="blue">Both possibilities are very relevant for Flora's breed, because with matador breeding, where one or a few stud dogs are allowed to father a too high percentage of litters, if one of them then carries a gene for an unknown disease, there is a risk that gene will spread fast and many dogs/bitches will then soon be carriers...

Even if none of the matador stud dogs carries any unknown 'bad' genes, the inbreeding percentage will still increase in the breed and the bigger risk for a genetic mutation to turn up and if it then spreads in the breed... </font>

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
Its unlikely as he is an import that lines are being crossed now in regards to the bitches he is mating...its the dogs being produced a decade on that concern me. It will soon be difficult to find a dog without him in their pedigree.
Others are concerned yes but nothing seems to be done about it. And obviously not enough are concerned or they wouldn't be using him! I cringe every time someone tells me they have him lined up as the next sire to their pups

[/ QUOTE ]


That's it, time for desperate meassurments...

CAAAAAAYYYYYYLLLLLLAAAAAA! CAAAAAAYYYYYYLLLLLLAAAAAA!



HELP!

Come on Cayla, go chop those nuts off, I know you want to, just hanging there dangle dangle dangling, absolutely no use at all, just begging to be chop chopped...

Please Cayla, please!

 

[Spudlet]

I've got it!

We stage a Ninja neutering raid, and replace the dangleys with some of this Neuticle implants Katie_Houston mentioned

No one will ever know...

 

[Vizslak]

Lmao you two!!!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
Your not hijacking MM, all breeding debate welcome!
Thanks Finny, that's all very informative, as I said this isn't related directly to Flora or my plans with her but more to do with my concerns for the breed as a whole.
I like the scoring system used there, it makes it clearer I think...obviously I also like the fact there are mandatory rules about it over there while no such system is in place over here and if someone wanted they could breed a 50/50 scored dog with another 50/50 dog. As said before we could really learn a lot from Sweden!

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all breeds have mandatory requirements for HD scoring, but those that does, needs to follow the rules or the puppies will not get their SKK certificates.



However not everything about SKK is perfect, a good thing is that regardless of breed, you are not allowed to register more than 5 litters from one brood bitch but a bad thing is that there is no general limit for all stud dogs regardless of breed.

But if SKK becomes concerned regarding a specific breed, they can and do sometimes decide to make breed specific rules, currently there is one for Swedish Lapphund stud dogs, once you've registered 25 or more puppies (after all litter sizes can be different) after one stud dog, you can't register any more puppies from that stud dog, period.
There is also a general recommendation that an individual stud dog should not become a father to more than 5% of the offspring produced by a generation of breeding animals (approx. 5 years). For the Finnish Lapphund, this means that a male should not be the father of more than about 75 puppies during 5 years.





We are not allowed register litters from matings between father to daughter, mother with son or full siblings with each other. If you mate one cousin to another cousin, you get an inbreed percentage of 6,25 % and SKK recommends that breeders keep their breeding below that percentage. Note that a recommendation is not the same as a rule.
But if a breed suffers from over used matador stud dogs, it can quickly become difficult to find suitable mating options with an inbreeding percentage below the 6,25% level.


SKK have an outspoken goal that all breeds should have as low average inbreeding percentage as possible and they do offer a web service where they calculate the inbreeding percentage of potential matings that you consider as a breeder, to help you breed puppies with low inbreeding percentage.




If you are interested, Hungarian Vizsla shorthaired's inbreeding statistic in Sweden (all SKK web statistic begins 1990) :

1990 3,8 %

1991 0,7 %

1992 0,5 %

1993 1,4 %

1994 2,3 %

1995 1,9 %

1996 2,4 %

1997 7,1 % (

this was before SKK's web service, calculating inbreeding % by 'hand' is not easy)

1998 1,9 %

1999 0,5 %

2000 0,2 %

2001 0 %

2002 0 %

2003 0,5 %

2004 0,3%

2005 0 %

2006 0 %

2007 0 %

2008 0,2 %

2009 1,2 %

2010 unknown



About the dogs and bitches old enough to have grand-children/puppies, the stud dog that has the most 'grandpuppies' have a total of 31 puppies registered and 74 'grandpuppies', the second dog has a total of 15 puppies registered and 45 'grandpuppies' and the third dog has a total of 7 puppies registered and 40 'grandpuppies'.

For the brood bitches, the brood bitch with the most 'grandpuppies' have a total of 12 puppies registered and 45 'grandpuppies', the second bitch has a total of 6 puppies registered and 35 'grandpuppies' and then there is two bitches on the third place, one had a total of 24 puppies registered and the other has a total of 18 puppies registered and both has a total of 29 'grandpuppies'.


Put that in comparison to your matador stud dogs with more than 200 or 400 puppies...

Talk about shooting themselves in the foot...

And one last thing :

Inbreeding should be below 2.5% in order not to risk the depletion of the genetic variation. The knowledge we have today suggests that inbreeding of about 1% or slightly above do not lead to any significant risk of additional genetic damage.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Duh, Vizslak, I've just realised the dog you are talking about, it was plastered all over last weeks Dog World. It appears he UK lines "close in his pedigree" as well as overseas ones so there are going to be even more common ancestors . And no doubt people will be flocking to use his champion offspring too, not good.