Questions RE: Buying horse/s

[Sircobalot]

Hi All

I am in the fortunate postition to be looking to purchase a new young horse and a schoolmaster older horse! I consider myself of average ability, with a good solid, sound knowledge of what constitutes the horse I'm looking for. However, my current quest leaves me with many questions, like these, ??


1) when asked if the horse has lumps, bumps, blemishes- why say no? I have eyes in my head and to drive 3 hrs to see something that has sarcoids on its wither is frustrating!

2) why tell someone the horse is easy to do and hacks out on its own,, ?? I have eyes in my head and to drive 5 hrs to see it napping and bucking down the road is frustrating!!

3) when asked if it's straight, ( non waving) why say yes ?? I have eyes in my head and driving 6 hrs to see a horse that's waving at the Boeing 747 fly over head is frustrating (did receive a video pre visit, but was about 6 miles away and my eyes are a bit old !

4) why don't people handle youngstock ?? 3 years old hasn't seen a human, the farrier a vet?? Just don't get that??

5) why don't people update passports ?
6) why isn't your horse microchipped ?
7) if you have sold your beautiful super star why is the advert still live??
Im not psychic, don't be annoyed when I contact you!! REMOVE THE AD!!
8) you must remember the story you have told me, -'as I'm my head I've remembered every little detail and am planning my first outing on my new horse. To then hear you talk about a different horse to the one you described is frustrating!!

9) who should be accountable for miss-selling ? The owners, the sites that sell?
Finally
10). Does horse selling desperately need regulation - should there be an area where you can leave feedback on horse adverts/ sellers / websites - maybe like eBay 100% positive feedback etc??

Thanks for reading ,,, thoughts??

 

[PaddyMonty]

Something that should be so much fun is generally a nightmare. Have experienced most of what you list.

 

[be positive]

The problem with buying and selling is that many people really have very little idea of what they are doing, they are not so much miss-selling as clueless as to the answers/ questions so give the response they feel is right rather than say they cannot answer, it is not always true but if you asked me if a horse "waved" I would have to ask what you meant or would have thought I misheard and you had said weave in which case I would have honestly answered no, by your description I guess waving is what I would call dishing but in all my years of buying and selling I have never heard the term, if you are in the UK I would think not many people would have a clue what you meant either, if you said "is it straight" that would mean is is uncomplicated, does it move straight would be clearer but still beyond many peoples ability to answer correctly.

The other incidents are fairly normal, people bending the truth, hoping the horse has a good day, passports not being updated is fairly common especially if the horse is in a dealers yard, micro chipping is not a requirement although many will be done it should hardly be a reason to not purchase, forgetting to remove an ad is not a crime, I leave mine live until the horse has gone to it's new home just in case something goes wrong, not remembering the story is showing they are probably not telling the truth about anything so time to get out before it's too late!!!

9) accountability for miss-selling, I don't think much of the above is miss-selling as such, a horse is an animal so apart from the obvious description of colour, size, age etc most of the ad will be a matter of opinion or the owners interpretation of the horse and it's talent, ability etc. in their eyes it may be stunning, talented, scopey with manners to burn, I may think it plain, average, with limited ability and the manners of a pig but that is all part of looking at the ads, reading between the lines and studying the photos, videos, record of the potential purchase, the horse may not fit my idea of what I want but someone may agree with the sellers description and buy it, I may think it was being miss-sold but as long as the basic description is fairly accurate I would have no complaints, certainly not if it was with a private seller.

10) pretty much covered above, beauty is in the eye of the beholder to give poor feed back to a private seller because the horse did not fit with an individuals expectations is not really fair, there is no standard to guide people when placing an ad so as long as the basics are correct then it is down to the buyer to do their homework and judge the persons response before going to view, I think with dealers it is slightly different as they should be professionals unlike the average seller who has possibly never even sold a horse before so has very little experience, an experienced buyer can usually sift through and not waste too much time viewing unsuitable horses.

 

[SpringArising]

Agree with BP. And I have no idea what "waving" is either. Weave? Dishing? Stamps front feet around?

 

[Sircobalot]

It is very frustrating and I find myself asking the same questions over and over again, and getting different answers each time. Very odd, subjective world.

 

[Sircobalot]

Agree with BP. And I have no idea what "waving" is either. Weave? Dishing? Stamps front feet around?

most people I speak to know what this term means!! It's a light hearted term for a horse that throws one, or both legs.

I understand the subjectivity around terms and when speaking to owners on the phone have asked specifically, is he/she conformatonally straight, any injury, any bumps, lumps blemishes, feet turned in or out!! More specifically does it dish (some people don't know what that means either, some call it plaiting)!! To be told no! Arriving and finding it pigeon toed (feet turned in, like a pigeon ).
I do believe , people should hold this basic knowledge,,, and fundamentally do . 😳

 

[Sircobalot]

The problem with buying and selling is that many people really have very little idea of what they are doing, they are not so much miss-selling as clueless as to the answers/ questions so give the response they feel is right rather than say they cannot answer, it is not always true but if you asked me if a horse "waved" I would have to ask what you meant or would have thought I misheard and you had said weave in which case I would have honestly answered no, by your description I guess waving is what I would call dishing but in all my years of buying and selling I have never heard the term, if you are in the UK I would think not many people would have a clue what you meant either, if you said "is it straight" that would mean is is uncomplicated, does it move straight would be clearer but still beyond many peoples ability to answer correctly.

The other incidents are fairly normal, people bending the truth, hoping the horse has a good day, passports not being updated is fairly common especially if the horse is in a dealers yard, micro chipping is not a requirement although many will be done it should hardly be a reason to not purchase, forgetting to remove an ad is not a crime, I leave mine live until the horse has gone to it's new home just in case something goes wrong, not remembering the story is showing they are probably not telling the truth about anything so time to get out before it's too late!!!

9) accountability for miss-selling, I don't think

10) pretty much covered above, beauty is in the eye of the beholder to give poor feed back to a private seller because the horse did not fit with an individuals expectations is not really fair, there is no standard to guide people when placing an ad so as long as the basics are correct then it is down to the buyer to do their homework and judge the persons response before going to view, I think with dealers it is slightly different as they should be professionals unlike the average seller who has possibly never even sold a horse before so has very little experience, an experienced buyer can usually sift through and not waste too much time viewing unsuitable horses.

But I went to see a horse that was described as excellent to hack alone and it wasn't??? How much more basic can I be??

I understand it's buyer beware and do your homework, and an element of subjectivity around terms, transferability of different knowledge discourse!! Equally,, I'm sure buyers may over estimate capability and ability etc!! But I have asked very very basic questions- does he/she have lumps or bumps to be told no! To get to see it and it's covered!!

The live /old adverts - I always delete/ remove / edit my adverts, most websites allow you to do this (an excellent service I might add). I don't want people ringing and asking me when I don't have the horse anymore!! It's a waste of my time and theirs!! Maybe some people don't mind getting calls!! At no point did anyone say it was a crime!! A curtiosy maybe,, and maybe the ads should/could be automatically removed after a certain time! etc!!

 

[ycbm]

Been buying and selling horses for forty years. I've never heard the term waving. And what do you mean 'throws one or both legs'. I want to know if a horse is straight, dishes in front, plaits in front or behind or is narrow behind or base narrow in front. Each of those has a different level of seriousness for me. I'm not interested in whether it waves and if I was selling and someone asked me that I would ask them what they mean. I suspect the people who have told you the horse does not wave meant it did not weave.

When buying, I don't expect any seller to tell me the truth, I don't travel more than 2 1/2 hours to see one, and I'm pleased if I find the horse has been accurately described. It's just part of the 'fun' of buying!

 

[be positive]

most people I speak to know what this term means!! It's a light hearted term for a horse that throws one, or both legs.

I understand the subjectivity around terms and when speaking to owners on the phone have asked specifically, is he/she conformatonally straight, any injury, any bumps, lumps blemishes, feet turned in or out!! More specifically does it dish (some people don't know what that means either, some call it plaiting)!! To be told no! Arriving and finding it pigeon toed (feet turned in, like a pigeon ).
I do believe , people should hold this basic knowledge,,, and fundamentally do . ��

I agree that they should have a basic understanding of conformation and movement, what is considered to be a lump, bump or blemish and what a vice actually is before they are able to purchase a horse, let alone own it for a while without picking up those basics, so they would then be able to answer question with honesty but nowadays there seems to be very many owners who have little understanding of any of this and it is almost like a foreign language to them.

I am slightly surprised though that you are in the position to be purchasing two horses and are still dealing with people who are so clueless, usually once you are in the higher price bracket and or expectations, looking for an educated quality horse, and, presumably, a purpose bred youngster, that you are not making contact with a more educated seller, I usually find it is the bottom end of the market that is far more tricky to deal with.

 

[j1ffy]

most people I speak to know what this term means!! It's a light hearted term for a horse that throws one, or both legs.

I understand the subjectivity around terms and when speaking to owners on the phone have asked specifically, is he/she conformatonally straight, any injury, any bumps, lumps blemishes, feet turned in or out!! More specifically does it dish (some people don't know what that means either, some call it plaiting)!! To be told no! Arriving and finding it pigeon toed (feet turned in, like a pigeon ).
I do believe , people should hold this basic knowledge,,, and fundamentally do . 😳

Dishing and plaiting are two completely different faults and basically opposite to one another - I'd expect any knowledgeable horse owner to know what each is. As others have said, 'waving' isn't a term I've heard and is therefore likely to be subjective (is Totilas 'waving'? Genuine question).

It sounds like you've had a torrid time. Why not ask on here for some recommendations of good dealers / agents / studs and go from there?

 

[VRIN]

I would recommend a trip to Ireland for a youngster ... lots to see..

 

[FestiveFuzz]

most people I speak to know what this term means!! It's a light hearted term for a horse that throws one, or both legs.

I understand the subjectivity around terms and when speaking to owners on the phone have asked specifically, is he/she conformatonally straight, any injury, any bumps, lumps blemishes, feet turned in or out!! More specifically does it dish (some people don't know what that means either, some call it plaiting)!! To be told no! Arriving and finding it pigeon toed (feet turned in, like a pigeon ).
I do believe , people should hold this basic knowledge,,, and fundamentally do . 😳

Simple solution, ask for videos showing everything you're interested in knowing. A lot of the faults you're describing would be easily identified by a decent video and some pics of the horse without tack side on and from the front and back. Although I'm another that still has no idea what you mean by waving and would assume you meant weaving.

Presumably you have a sizeable budget given your fortunate position so in your shoes I would look at using an agent to source the right horses.

 

[rachk89]

When buying, I don't expect any seller to tell me the truth, I don't travel more than 2 1/2 hours to see one, and I'm pleased if I find the horse has been accurately described. It's just part of the 'fun' of buying!

That was pretty much the mindset I went in with when buying. Dont trust a word the seller says. Look at the horse yourself and decide for yourself. What is a sensitive horse to one person is an angel to another for example. Sadly the issues like sarcoids will usually be lies if the horse has them as they wont own up to them just to get you there.

First horse I tried was a 4 year old cob that I was told was very quiet and would probably be good for me. And to be fair on the dealer he was very quiet, even for me being as nervous as I was. I even took him for his first time ever into an indoor arena, which the dealer wasnt sure I should try as he wasnt sure I could handle it if the horse freaked out but he didnt. However once back in the stable, the horse basically just collapsed on the floor, which really should have been a warning sign to me (it was in the back of my head, but the excitement of getting my first horse that was lovely and almost what I wanted besides age told that little voice to shut up and go away). In the end he failed the vetting on testing positive for strangles, so we didnt get him which was probably a good thing really. They had probably dehydrated the poor horse or not fed him in ages, whatever really. But its the kind of thing a seller may do to sell a horse that is not what they advertised. So you need to watch out for those tricks too.

 

[michelledud]

I agree with many of the points the OP has made, I do think a straightforward question deserves an honest straightforward answer (although I too have never heard of waving).
However I would also strongly recommend asking for videos, particularly if the horse is a distance from you, stating which paces/activities you want to see the horse doing, and a video of it trotting directly towards and away from the camera so you can see its action/soundness etc
A misunderstanding of terms or someone seeing their bog standard pony as a world beater through rose tinted glasses is unfortunate (although possibly sorted through video footage) but why people think they can actively misrepresent a horse and think you won't notice when you go to view is just time wasting for both parties.
I also think if the horse has been sold and gone to it's new home, if you don't want any more enquirers then delete/update the adverts, don't get miffed when people keep phoning you, they don't all have crystal balls.
It's a minefield out there, good luck! ☺️🍀

 

[Casey76]

I have to confess I have no idea what "waving" is (or even "throwing a leg") at all - is that like dishing or paddling?

I suppose also "straight moving" can be interpretive. Many Iberians had a rather extravagant campano/fimbrao, but the foot lands straight and even and there isn't the wear on the joints as straight forward dishing

 

[ihatework]

I've never heard the term waving in the OP context either, is use 'waving' as a slang term for rearing.
Throwing a leg I have used, but again more as a conversational slang term - if I wanted to know if a horse moved straight when buying I'd ask 'does it move straight, no dishing, plaiting etc'

 

[Irish gal]

What you're describing is to be completely expected buying horses from private sellers, it's like buying a second hand car - you're dealing with the public and you're going to meet all sorts. Some bend the truth, others don't. Some have a grasp of conformation faults, others don't.

If you want to cut that out then go to a reputable agent. They will deal with their own panel of sellers, more professional type of horse people, and if they say the horse hasn't got a fault then he won't have.

But while you're jumping in the car to view random horses from the internet you can expect to have more of your current complaints happening - it's par for the course! As an agent myself, here in Ireland, I'm speaking from experience. So you either have to keep winnowing the wheat from the chaff yourself in the private market, or let a dealer or an agent basically do that for you.

 

[MagicMelon]

With regard to these two:

5) why don't people update passports ? Its expensive. Usually the passports I get aren't often up to date, in one of my passports - only the breeder is listed and nobody since (even though I know the horse has been through about 4 homes). I didnt feel the need to do it "officially" so I just wrote my own name in and dont feel any point in paying about £40 just for them to stamp it...
6) why isn't your horse microchipped ? Why necessarily should it be? I have 2 who aren't. Its only legally required from a certain year of birth so I guess younger horses will be.

 

[{97702}]

I agree that they should have a basic understanding of conformation and movement, what is considered to be a lump, bump or blemish and what a vice actually is before they are able to purchase a horse, let alone own it for a while without picking up those basics, so they would then be able to answer question with honesty but nowadays there seems to be very many owners who have little understanding of any of this and it is almost like a foreign language to them.

I am slightly surprised though that you are in the position to be purchasing two horses and are still dealing with people who are so clueless, usually once you are in the higher price bracket and or expectations, looking for an educated quality horse, and, presumably, a purpose bred youngster, that you are not making contact with a more educated seller, I usually find it is the bottom end of the market that is far more tricky to deal with.

Totally agree....