Questions re. PSSM

[kathantoinette]

I've found the other threads on PSSM very interesting. Wondering if my cob x ISH is possibly suffering from this - have sent off the genetic hair test today.

For those of you with horses diagnosed as suffering, could you answer the following questions for me;

* How long had you had the horse before symptoms occurred, was there anything which triggered them?

* That 'noise' which geldings make in the sheath area - could this possibly be a symptom (I know it can be a result of tension and if there's tension in the muscles...)

Thank you so much in advance

 

[SEL]

I restarted my mare under saddle in May 15 & about 8 weeks later realised she wasn't tracking up properly. I'd never heard of PSSM at this point. She came to me with some behaviour issues, one of which wasn't picking her feet up for the farrier.

Gave her some time off, treated for ulcers and then came across PSSM by accident. Tested and she was positive - explained a lot of her grumpy behaviours.

Tested my Belgian gelding at the same time as he is a high risk breed - also positive. Never noticed a sheath noise with him. I know what you mean though - I've heard it on other geldings. No idea if it's a PSSM symptom though.

What makes you wonder about your horse?

 

[scats]

I'm ashamed to say it took me a long time to get suspicious about PSSM, because her symptoms are not always typical of PSSM. First 6 months were spent hacking to teach her about straight lines, so I didn't really notice anything amiss. Then I started to up her school work and I remember thinking how hard she was to get fit, as she was very blowy and puffed after very little work. I continued to intersperse her work with hacking, and more hacking if I'm honest, which a lot was done in walk or short bursts of canter, so although I remember thinking that it were strange that she was not seeming to increase in fitness, I wasn't too concerned as I thought that I just hadn't got her fit enough. I had two instructors tell me that she held herself very tightly, and that was why we assumed she was wearing herself out. She has never actually tied up, however.

It was when I further upped her workload and took her out to some dressage comps and it became startlingly apparent that something was very, very wrong. Full of adrenaline off the box, she would be as tight as a drum and then go as flat as a pancake and feel like she was going to collapse. She would puff and pant like she'd done the national twice over and she started struggling to canter and then humping instead of cantering. I was also bringing my other horse back into work after 2 years off and was alarmed to see that within a very short space of time, he seemed much fitter than my mare did, and he could sustain work that she had no hope in hell of doing. By now I was doing some research into causes and PSSM flagged up. I rang the vet and she was diagnosed at the end of last year.

 

[SEL]

Puffing! Took me ages to realise that was a symptom.

I actually think my little mare was lucky that I kept seeing the 'try' with her so rather than thinking she was lazy I was curious as to why she would do the transition and then go flat or freeze. So we'd get a few strides of a nice trot and then bleugh. She obviously understood nice trot was what I wanted but couldn't do it.

2 years down the road and still struggling. Ho hum.

 

[kathantoinette]

I restarted my mare under saddle in May 15 & about 8 weeks later realised she wasn't tracking up properly. I'd never heard of PSSM at this point. She came to me with some behaviour issues, one of which wasn't picking her feet up for the farrier.

Gave her some time off, treated for ulcers and then came across PSSM by accident. Tested and she was positive - explained a lot of her grumpy behaviours.

Tested my Belgian gelding at the same time as he is a high risk breed - also positive. Never noticed a sheath noise with him. I know what you mean though - I've heard it on other geldings. No idea if it's a PSSM symptom though.

What makes you wonder about your horse?

Thank for your reply. He's been intermittently lame behind - had the vet who suggested he looked 'tied-up'. Treated with bute for 5 days and 5 days off work. Sound again for a couple of days, then the same again. Rested him for a couple of days, now sound again.

He tracks up fine. Not always willing to go forward (but he does have a stubborn streak), grumpy girthing up. 'Looses a leg' sometimes when schooling and some muscle spasms during a schooling session. But these could be age related I think, he's only just 7 and working properly for the first time in his life. He does look a bit bum high so wondering if he could be having a final growth spurt.

I've had him only since August last year so this is his first spring with me. Bought him from a friend - no previous lameness issues with her.

I have a physio coming on Wednesday and as I said sent the hair sample off for the genetic test so watch this space!

 

[ycbm]

Horse number one, QHx was obviously wrong when first broken at four. Dead to the leg, bucked me off when asked to go forward. Stiff bum muscles, no balance, no stamina. False colic waa the last clue. A high fat high vitamin E diet sorted him out but he was even better on alcar instead of oil.

Horse number two, Clyde x, was in work a year before he starred bolting into transitions and behaving like a five year old Kevin. Finally realised it was PSSM not feisty fives even though he was five, and put him on the alcar and vitamin E and both have been perfect for the last two years.

Here comes the but.......

They both seem have grown into worse symptoms this spring as they are getting older. I'm pretty sure my cob nearly tied up this morning three quarters of the way up a hill in canter. The brakes just slammed on from behind, and that's just not him.

And my QHx has just a week ago had a complete crisis where he went so weak in the back end that he seemed to have quite serious ataxia. Thankfully, 10,000 iu of vitamin E for a week seems to have him right back on track and rebuilding his strength.

So I'm now hoping that this gets no worse, and licking my wounds at the thought of each of them costing over five hundred pounds a year in PSSM supplements alone

 

[FfionWinnie]

It does unfortunately get worse with age and I'm afraid to say I've never seen a normal horse have muscle spasms. That is a big symptom along with breathing issues.

I think muscle spasms are more common in type 2 and in RER than in type 1 so if your hair test is negative you may still have a myopathy on your hands.

Good luck, I think it's marginally better to have answers that to be banging your head off a brick wall.

 

[ycbm]

Just to add. My QH is negative for type 1, the other I haven't tested but he is heavy cross so unlikely to be anything but type 2.

But they are chalk and cheese in relation to how too low vitamin E affects them. The cob goes stiff with hard muscles, the QH goes floppy with muscle atrophy.

I'm not convinced type 2 is one disease, and neither are the experts apparently.

 

[FfionWinnie]

No it's not one simple disease and frankly there are probably more muscle myopathies affecting more horses than will ever be diagnosed.

 

[SEL]

Thank for your reply. He's been intermittently lame behind - had the vet who suggested he looked 'tied-up'. Treated with bute for 5 days and 5 days off work. Sound again for a couple of days, then the same again. Rested him for a couple of days, now sound again.

He tracks up fine. Not always willing to go forward (but he does have a stubborn streak), grumpy girthing up. 'Looses a leg' sometimes when schooling and some muscle spasms during a schooling session. But these could be age related I think, he's only just 7 and working properly for the first time in his life. He does look a bit bum high so wondering if he could be having a final growth spurt.

I've had him only since August last year so this is his first spring with me. Bought him from a friend - no previous lameness issues with her.

I have a physio coming on Wednesday and as I said sent the hair sample off for the genetic test so watch this space!

If your friend was on less rich grass then the change in grazing could have caused the problems. I agree with FW that muscle spasms are an indication something is wrong - my mare develops a flickering left shoulder muscle. When I first backed her I wondered if it was a trapped nerve. I now know it's a sign her muscles aren't happy.

Did your vet pull bloods to check for muscle enzyme levels?

 

[SEL]

No it's not one simple disease and frankly there are probably more muscle myopathies affecting more horses than will ever be diagnosed.

Yup. Even my 2 type 1s present differently. If the Equisec (sp?) testing makes it to the UK then I'd be interested in seeing if either of mine has anything else going on.

 

[MrsNorris]

Puffing! Took me ages to realise that was a symptom.

I actually think my little mare was lucky that I kept seeing the 'try' with her so rather than thinking she was lazy I was curious as to why she would do the transition and then go flat or freeze. So we'd get a few strides of a nice trot and then bleugh. She obviously understood nice trot was what I wanted but couldn't do it.

2 years down the road and still struggling. Ho hum.

MY cob was tentatively diagnosed more than 10 years ago, but back in those days it wasn't well known or recognised, symptoms were exercise intolerance and strange hind end problems which the vet couldn't diagnose, coupled with back and hindend muscle spasm and stiffness and an inability to work over his back.

Then we found out he'd had a serious LH injury as a youngster, so all the odd symptoms were put down to that. The puffing was put down to simply being unfit, the high oil diet was stopped (he was only on it for a few weeks) and epsm was ruled out.

Fast forward 10 years, the horse has had a very easy life due to my circumstance and a lack of transport, he has never been completely right, but has been seen regularly by my vet and bodyworker and passed fit for hacking.
I now have transport and spare cash, and have started taking him for weekly lessons, after having him assessed and passed fit for prelim dressage. Instructer knows his history and we started very gently, but all the old problems started again, really tight through the back, unable to work through, increasingly resentful when being asked to do so, humping halfway through his lesson when asked to canter.
So I decided to try Alcar and high dose vit E, just in case.

What a difference, within 3 weeks the resentment had gone and he was starting to enjoy his lessons! He became much easier to load, his normal resting stance changed beyond all recognition and he has started to very slowly gain some top line muscle, something which I thought I'd never see. And for the last week, for the first time ever, I can see a clear and unmistakable increase in his fitness, he can now go up many of our hills without dying a death, it's quite remarkable!

It's still early days, but I'm hopeful that we might finally have got to the real root of the problem, now I just have to live with the guilt of not doing this sooner

 

[ycbm]

Please don't feel guilty, you took advice. I've messed up both mine this winter. One I caught early, the other went so weak I got neck x rays done.

It's still not a disease that is being recognised enough. There are a lot of 'lazy'horses' being walloped out there .

 

[Tiarella]

My horse this time last year went very pssm - tucked up, intermittent lame, tight muscles, not going forward etc etc. Sorted diet and exercise and seemed to improve, was fabulous over winter but hit exactly the same point this year too some symptoms worse than last year, some not. Thinking of having biopsy but still haven't decided.

 

[scats]

I'm having major problems trying to get stuff into the Diva now that the spring grass is through. She always goes on feed strike and I cannot get what I need into her. Last week we had symptomatic sessions, the first in weeks. So frustrating when I k ow how much better she is on her diet.

 

[ycbm]

I'm having major problems trying to get stuff into the Diva now that the spring grass is through. She always goes on feed strike and I cannot get what I need into her. Last week we had symptomatic sessions, the first in weeks. So frustrating when I k ow how much better she is on her diet.

Mine too. Does it every year.

My OH suggested I should give mine one handfull and wait until he ate it before giving him another. It's worked for nearly two weeks now

I've been recommended pink mash and I'm waiting for a sample.

 

[SEL]

Mine ended up with a few more hours on the grass today than I wanted - & was bloated, puffing and stiff when worked her this evening. Hardly any grass in her paddock either - she was starving when I finally got her in.

MrsNorris - don't feel guilty. I didn't know PSSM existed a few years ago. Tying up happened to racehorses didn't it?! The power of the internet got my horse diagnosed. I'm also pretty sure that her muscle tightness led to her developing arthritis in the hocks at such a young age.

 

[MrsNorris]

Thanks for the kind words, the only bright side for my horse is that he has never been pushed at all to do anything, with the result that he has the joints of a horse half his age according to the physio. So I'm hopeful that if we can get on top of this now, he may still have a few good years ahead.
We spent years thinking that the extreme lethargy and reluctance to work, always more marked in the spring, must be related to LGL and sore feet, despite the fact that he has no outward signs whatsoever of foot problems (he's barefoot), but with hindsight the extra sugar was probably triggering worse muscle symptoms. He's been tested regularly for PPID, had one borderline test then three negative ones, he's had a prascend trial after the first test, which didn't help at all and was stopped after 3 months, so it's all been a bit of a rollercoaster.
Wish I'd been a bit more determined to pursue Epsm all those years ago, hopefully we've nailed it now, fingers crossed!
Luckily for me, he will eat almost anything (turmeric excepted, yeah we've been there too!) so I'm not having any trouble getting him to take his supplements, in fact he wolfs them down!

 

[paddy555]

Wish I'd been a bit more determined to pursue Epsm all those years ago, hopefully we've nailed it now, fingers crossed!
[/QUOT

I doubt you could have as the info was just not available, nor was it obvious, not were vets clued up. My vet (only 3 years ago) didn't spot it, didn't even know what it was. It never even occurred to the vet clinic he was at. I lost one of mine to PSSM many years ago. At the time we went round in circles trying to see what was going on. In hindsight the only thing that made any difference was a supplement with selenium and vit e. At the time I made no connection with the vit E. That was pre internet days. If I knew then what I know now I could have saved him.

Everything crossed for your lad. There is so much info now about what may work.