R+

[hock]

There’s an Ozzie group (I think) with a clearly knowledgeable (in her subject) leader (cult ish feeling) and I’ve not been blocked by the group I’m still a member but they removed our 2 day discussion on the topic of R+. Don’t get me wrong I have a strong “don’t be ridiculous you’re doing it wrong, set your followers free” but 99/100 I say it in my head. I like to look at all methods but don’t understand why you’re not allowed to gently question them? It’s called whispering something. They just quote science at me and say that their method is the only method. Is the movement generally like that?

 

[Nasicus]

There's evangelists in every 'movement', and thanks to social media it's very easy for them to building followings with fellow evangelists. Add in that people are often unwilling to consider/research the other options available and focus solely on what they believe in to be right and the only way forward, and the ability to create groups to create echo chambers and exclude any unwanted questions or objections. And that goes for both sides of the coin, eg Barefoot vs Shod, R+ vs R- etc.
I always say to listen to both sides, do a bit of your own research and draw your own conclusions. It's perfectly okay to take a bit from A and a bit from B without swallowing the whole lot

 

[Landcruiser]

R+ ??? Am I missing something very obvious?

 

[Caol Ila]

It means positive reinforcement. Clicker training.

In my experience, many people who argue that they are practicing pure positive reinforcement can get very evangelical about it and will tell you it's the only ethical way to train horses. Especially the ones who have accrued followings, on social media or meatspace. I've come across barns that purport themselves to be +R only barns.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think I know the Aussie you're referring to, and I stopped following her long ago as she's very aggressive and cultish. There are plenty of folk who use R+ who aren't religious about it such as myself, I find various clicker training groups very useful to read but there are some people who have an 'all or nothing' attitude about positive reinforcement, which tbh isn't going to encourage people who are new to the concept.

 

[hock]

I think I know the Aussie you're referring to, and I stopped following her long ago as she's very aggressive and cultish. There are plenty of folk who use R+ who aren't religious about it such as myself, I find various clicker training groups very useful to read but there are some people who have an 'all or nothing' attitude about positive reinforcement, which tbh isn't going to encourage people who are new to the concept.

Yes I think that’s the one! I very much have a look at everything approach to see what fits which is how I came across the group. Cultish and aggressive is exactly how I’d describe her although I’d have to say she was very polite to me apart from deleting my posts which was a conversation with her and another person. They lost me 100% when they said it was better for a horse to be trained by a human with a clicker than equine behaviour/body language methods. Shame really as I was open to listening but they couldn’t get past “the science days so” and the majority of horse experts on FB are clueless they’re hiding behind a keyboard. The irony of that was not lost of me .

I am guilty of being over enthusiastic myself, I do training and have a set idea of how I’d like to see a horse go. But you catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

 

[hock]

R+ ??? Am I missing something very obvious?

Sorry I assumed I’d missed the boat and was the last to hear about this movement. But year clicker training but very very serious your horse is miserable if you don’t do exactly what I say.

 

[smolmaus]

Clicker training and R+ aren't even technically the same thing. A local R+ evangelist does use food rewards but doesn't use a clicker or any other bridge signal (which IMO is much less efficient), still R+. She also uses traditional pressure release but as she is "nice" about it, it apparently doesn't count as negative reinforcement

I use R+ because it makes life easier for a lot of things. Trying to avoid ALL R- would make my life very hard.

A horse has crushed my foot and I'm struggling silently to reach my ball-on-a-stick target so I can ask them to move without adding any nasty pressure that would cause trauma.

 

[hock]

Your post did make me chuckle, you’re bang on with it!

 

[Caol Ila]

I prefer the bridge signal (once you teach them it, obviously!) because I'm rarely fast enough at shoving a treat in their mouth to reward what I want to reward.

I also use traditional pressure-release training. Most of the time with Hermosa and nearly all the time with Fin, the latter due to what I talked about in my thread. He was clicker trained from the start, when he was first gentled and backed, which clearly worked up to a point, getting him to progress from A to B, but he became the poster child for overshadowing, where he would ostensibly do what you wanted and take the treat, but he actually wasn't okay with it. This bit him in the ass later, first with the pro yard he went to for rebacking (someone who bans treats from her yard, so they definitely weren't clicker training!), then with me, as I started asking him to do more, and the fact that he'd never become 100% comfortable with some of the foundational stuff reared its head.

In the comments on her Facebook post about overshadowing, Andrea Mills and a few other people discuss ferals in particular -- working with mustangs who've been mostly clicker trained but then implode due to having learned some of the domesticated behaviours people want out of them, but deep down inside, they haven't really accepted it.

 

[smolmaus]

I prefer the bridge signal (once you teach them it, obviously!) because I'm rarely fast enough at shoving a treat in their mouth to reward what I want to reward.

I also use traditional pressure-release training. Most of the time with Hermosa and nearly all the time with Fin, the latter due to what I talked about in my thread. He was clicker trained from the start, when he was first gentled and backed, which clearly worked up to a point, getting him to progress from A to B, but he became the poster child for overshadowing, where he would ostensibly do what you wanted and take the treat, but he actually wasn't okay with it. This bit him in the ass later, first with the pro yard he went to for rebacking (someone who bans treats from her yard, so they definitely weren't clicker training!), then with me, as I started asking him to do more, and the fact that he'd never become 100% comfortable with some of the foundational stuff reared its head.

In the comments on her Facebook post about overshadowing, Andrea Mills and a few other people discuss ferals in particular -- working with mustangs who've been mostly clicker trained but then implode due to having learned some of the domesticated behaviours people want out of them, but deep down inside, they haven't really accepted it.

Im positive the overshadowing can happen with other training methods too, but you're right that even using R+ as gently as possible you can still trigger stack and overwhelm a horse to the point it boils over. And maybe you will be less aware. Always get something to think about from your posts CI!

 

[Nasicus]

but he became the poster child for overshadowing, where he would ostensibly do what you wanted and take the treat, but he actually wasn't okay with it.

I always have to pay attention to exactly how mine takes the treat, as that gives me an idea of whether she's actually okay with what we've done, or if she's just toughing it out for the treat and not really learning or processing anything. Relaxed, calm taking of the treat and immediate chewing? Cool, you're happy with what we're doing. Quick, snappy taking of the treat, followed by a pause or a brief chew then more pause, then a chew? Yeah okay you're not as okay with this as you're trying to make out, lets reassess.

 

[smolmaus]

I know Sadie isn't fully okay with the question when she gets my thumb as well as the treat. Good immediate lesson for me there to do better, her training methods are very effective.

Also, where are the people cancelling Sadie for her use of positive punishment. I also have rights

 

[Caol Ila]

I always have to pay attention to exactly how mine takes the treat, as that gives me an idea of whether she's actually okay with what we've done, or if she's just toughing it out for the treat and not really learning or processing anything. Relaxed, calm taking of the treat and immediate chewing? Cool, you're happy with what we're doing. Quick, snappy taking of the treat, followed by a pause or a brief chew then more pause, then a chew? Yeah okay you're not as okay with this as you're trying to make out, lets reassess.

Indeed! You know when it's not working for Fin. He might be standing still for the rug or whatever it is, but his head will be up, his ears will be backwards, and he will have an anxious look in his eye. I have made repeated attempts to use +R to reward more relaxation while putting on a rug, but it doesn't work. He switches off as soon as you start. Foregoing treats altogether and using more of a CAT-H method has been far more effective.

He got over his fear of quad bikes with me doing....nothing. I tried to arrange with the yard staff to park it somewhere so he could have a look and we could do some CAT-H, but the guy who's allowed to drive it is impossible to pin down. We only got up close and personal once, when they parked it on the drive while I was leading him past it. But the quad bike potters about doing quad bike things -- shifting equipment, harrowing arenas -- and over the course of many months, he realised it wasn't chasing him.

 

[hock]

Very interesting! I have mostly stopped using treats with the backers and give treats now when doing. I thing related to riding. I don’t think it’s made things harder and I don’t feel as though im bribing them (I do scratches though). So that’s called overshadowing when they’re doing it even though they’re worried for the treat?