race horse breeding

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madeleine1

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So this may not make much sence be im hopeing im figured out enough.
I have recently purchased a five year old tb mare. I brought her as a project to straighten out. Make into a nice ride and sell on for a small profit. I have her passport of so researched her family a bit.

She is an ex racer having raced as a two year old six times ( I believe). So I was hoping people who know more about racing then me can tell me how good she is?

she is called mantuana and her parents are kodiac and al shakoor. She has danehill as a grand parent. Sadlers wells as a great grand parent and northern dancer as a great great grandparent on both sides.

aprently ive been told this matters.
please explain
 
Why is her breeding important to you? She has no worth as a broodmare as she was totally useless on the track!
 
Breeding really makes no odds. I have an impeccably well bred TB mare, who was a useless racehorse, and then bred three equally useless foals. She's worthless as a broodmare now, and it shows that it's not necessarily breeding, it's the individual that matters.

I think breeding comes into play much more when you're looking at warmbloods.
 
Hiya it is great you are interested in her breeding. The main prob with TBs is it can be quite hard to find out if that line is doing well in something other than racing because the UK has no decent system for matching up pedigrees and sport performance. That is a huge shame because people are interested in finding TBs who can perform well in sports other than racing. If she did do well in sport or had relatives that did, she may have value as a broodmare because a TB with good sport performance is desirable to some. I had a TB broodmare who was bought out of the sales as a 5 year old who went onto jump Grade A. If she had a full sister I would have bought her. I think you were told about her TB pedigree on another thread? It might be worthwhile from time to time googling her sire and dam just to check someone is not out there eventing a brother successfully. Best of luck with her and hope she does well for you.
 
popsdosh said:
........ She has no worth as a broodmare as she was totally useless on the track!
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Not necessarily so. There are those mares, few I'll grant you, who though race track failures have sufficient and bold enough pedigrees and with known and successful lines which will encourage others to retain them for breeding. It's very rare for well bred mares to slip through the net and be offered on the open market.

It would seem that the mare concerned didn't have a pedigree which the experienced breeders thought would be enough to send her to stud, and so it would seem that she failed on both counts!

Starzaan said:
Breeding really makes no odds. I have an impeccably well bred TB mare, who was a useless racehorse, and then bred three equally useless foals. She's worthless as a broodmare now, and it shows that it's not necessarily breeding, it's the individual that matters.

I think breeding comes into play much more when you're looking at warmbloods.
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See above and I really can't agree with you. Impeccably bred can often mean that what ever the mare's lineage, it isn't such that it has a proven aspect of producing winners. It isn't simply that the parents of a mare are well bred, or even that they were winners, it's the aspect of proven "breeding" performance which matters. Every potential filly who would be considered for stud would have her Dam line considered, as in; what else did her Dam produce, and then her Grand-Dam, and so on.

Success breeds success, and if a filly is by, say, Galileo, firstly only suitable mares would be allowed to visit him, secondly as his stud fee is stratospheric, only the most suitable mares would warrant such vast sums being spent on them, and thirdly, no matter the ability of an individual mare, it would be unlikely that her foal would be of any value, if she herself didn't come directly from a line of known winning-producers.

With Sport Horses, and of course there will be exceptions, generally and especially with mares, it isn't the breeding which matters, but the individual mare's ability to perform her chosen task, and of equal importance, her willingness to do so.

Regardless of breeding, and to a greater extent with Sport Horses than the Race Horse, useless mares will all so often produce useless progeny. Were I looking for a top class Sport Horse brood mare, at the top of the list would be her own work record, and at the bottom of the list, would be her pedigree.

As firm says, there is little in the way of TB research or records for that matter to suggest which blood lines should be sought for Sport Horse breeding, which is a pity. The most likely TBs to be of interest, I would have thought would have been the known NH producing stallions of yesteryear rather than those flat bred horses who've succeeded. The problem is compounded though by the fact that most of the decent NH stallions are firstly very expensive, secondly the studs where they stand all so often wont take in non-TBs, and thirdly obtaining chilled or frozen semen aren't options because there's been no need to train stallions to produce, via this route.

It needs others, those who are brave enough, to source NH colts which will carry sufficient performance pedigree status, and to then compete them. Those which succeed across country, for instance, would find a ready market, I would have thought. There's no evidence that I'm aware of and to suggest that I'm right in this, it's just my own potted theory!

Alec.
 
I think a few of you have been really rude to OP. What does it matter about the breeding of any gelding if you want to look at it that way? It is useful to know to determine their strengths and possible quirks and people are always asking on here about sires or dams of their horses and not getting shot down in flames for it.
 
I have not read all the more recent posts, but any horse which has been purchased in order to make a small profit/cover costs when sold on, well one needs to buy fairly cheaply then put in the work to make it significantly better than the average rider could, then take it out and prove it can compete. This goes for all breeds.
There are lots of ex racing flat horses as the majority do not race after age two, by which time they are either sold cheaply, or sent to stud if good.
Dam-lines are very important in breeding TBs, but of course , individually, they don't produce many progeny, but all experienced breeders know what they are doing.
Re AI, this is not allowed , for economic reasons, the TB industry is highly structured and regulated.
 
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Clodagh, I agree that the discussion has rather wandered away from the OP's questions, but considering that the horse is a mare, and considering that this is the 'Breeding' section, I suppose that the sidetracking is to be rather expected! :)

madeleine1, it wasn't my intention to be offensive, and if you've taken my comments as such, then I apologise!

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
It needs others, those who are brave enough, to source NH colts which will carry sufficient performance pedigree status, and to then compete them. Those which succeed across country, for instance, would find a ready market, I would have thought. There's no evidence that I'm aware of and to suggest that I'm right in this, it's just my own potted theory!

Alec.
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There is no need to buy colts, colts are not usually bred for NH, they are usually bred for the flat, and anything half decent will be expensive.
However,............. there are plenty of good NH horses who are better suited to eventing than racing because they are just not fast enough to win good races but are well balanced, sound and mature, the problem is finding them, they are often sold privately.
 
I have a breeding sport horse list over here in North America when using TB mares as a broodmare and I can give you a run-down of the desired lines of your mares pedigree if you would like. The notable stallions in your mares lineage (for sport horse breeding) are; Buckpasser, Round Table and Sir Gaylord in the 5 line pedigree. Going back a little further, you have Princequillo and My Babu/Djebel and Tom Fool/Menow. These stallions are ones that sport horse breeders here look for in TB pedigrees. Based on your mares pedigree again, for sport horse breeding I would never use a mare with Northern Dancer or Seattle Slew in their pedigree so I'd definitely not use her in my sport horse breeding programme. Hope that helps a little.

Best of luck finding her a great riding home :)
 
Clodagh said:
What does it matter about the breeding of any gelding if you want to look at it that way? It is useful to know to determine their strengths and possible quirks ...
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Exactly! All of my riding horse geldings are chosen first on pedigree, then on the actual horse in front of me. I wouldn't even bother to enquire about certain geldings if they either do not have a particular line in their pedigree, or if indeed they DO have a particular line, as some are desirable to me, others are definitely not!
 
Yes, but OP has not chosen a horse on breeding but on its ability to make her a profit, not the same as buying a youngster for a job, where there is long term investment, or even for a pro who makes horses to sell or compete, in a business sense.
 
Bonkers2 said:
Yes, but OP has not chosen a horse on breeding but on its ability to make her a profit, not the same as buying a youngster for a job, where there is long term investment, or even for a pro who makes horses to sell or compete, in a business sense.
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This is the breeding section and OP is interested in the bloodlines. I have responded giving her info on the bloodlines, from the perspective of a sport horse breeder. She's a 5 year old mare who OP has bought as a small business venture, in the hope she can make a little money. If the mare had good sport horse breeding then the broodmare potential for making a profit could be there. She doesn't, therefore selling her as a nice little riding horse is the best course of action for this mare.
 
Spring Feather said:
I have a breeding sport horse list over here in North America when using TB mares as a broodmare and I can give you a run-down of the desired lines of your mares pedigree if you would like. The notable stallions in your mares lineage (for sport horse breeding) are; Buckpasser, Round Table and Sir Gaylord in the 5 line pedigree. Going back a little further, you have Princequillo and My Babu/Djebel and Tom Fool/Menow. These stallions are ones that sport horse breeders here look for in TB pedigrees. Based on your mares pedigree again, for sport horse breeding I would never use a mare with Northern Dancer or Seattle Slew in their pedigree so I'd definitely not use her in my sport horse breeding programme. Hope that helps a little.

Best of luck finding her a great riding home :)
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That is helpful and interesting thank you. Can I ask why you would or wouldnt from her eith those particular horses in her breeding
 
Alec Swan said:
Clodagh, I agree that the discussion has rather wandered away from the OP's questions, but considering that the horse is a mare, and considering that this is the 'Breeding' section, I suppose that the sidetracking is to be rather expected! :)

madeleine1, it wasn't my intention to be offensive, and if you've taken my comments as such, then I apologise!

Alec.
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I didn't think you were at all offensive, it was tothers! ;-)
 
Clodagh said:
I think a few of you have been really rude to OP. What does it matter about the breeding of any gelding if you want to look at it that way? It is useful to know to determine their strengths and possible quirks and people are always asking on here about sires or dams of their horses and not getting shot down in flames for it.
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I apologise to the OP if you feel I was being rude however at least I answered the question the OP was asking as I would see her from a thouroughbred point of view. I am not sure you even read the question as originally put. She does not have a great pedigree and her racing recoird was worse. Neither of these affect her suitability as a riding horse which I assume is what the OP was asking and I would only ever consider her as a potential sports horse broodmare if there was more NH blood in there but I am sure thats irrelevant in this situation,
I was always told without exception the last thing you ever look at when buying a horse is its pedigree!!
To many buyers are blinkered by breeding and never look at the basics,the pedigree is worthless if the horse cannot do the job required of it.
 
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