SusannaF
Well-Known Member
Sorry about that - from a US sports journalist who I thought was reliable.
Racehorses..are they ridden & raced too young?
- Thread starter POLLDARK
- Start date
Sorry about that - from a US sports journalist who I thought was reliable.
millitiger
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why they can't be broken and raced later?
I understand that they are faster when younger but if all horses were started and raced later no-one would have the advantage over anyone else as they would all be racing 4yros as opposed to 2yros
Studies have shown that light work at a young age HELPS bone density but to my mind, light work with a youngster would be conditioning by walking out on roads/different terrain and some long reining- not racing fit and doing a lot of canterwork.
It definitely points to something being wrong (usually an undetected hairline fracture) but I don't think there is anything to link to being raced/broken too young.
I would imagine more to do with racehorses generally working at a much higher level and the stress the body is put under.
I watch quite a bit of football and have seen at least 4 or 5 times, footballers breaking their legs just running, with no trips and no-one else involved. So definitely happens to humans as well as horses.
Again, same as racehorses, they are working their bodies at a very high intensity compared to the rest of the human population.
Not sure whether it is linked to bone density as footballers recover and play again generally- obviously can't tell that with horses though.
I understand that they are faster when younger but if all horses were started and raced later no-one would have the advantage over anyone else as they would all be racing 4yros as opposed to 2yros
Studies have shown that light work at a young age HELPS bone density but to my mind, light work with a youngster would be conditioning by walking out on roads/different terrain and some long reining- not racing fit and doing a lot of canterwork.
I would like to know how a fit horse racing on the flat well maintained turf can break a leg just running? Surely something must be very wrong somewhere for this to ever happen unless the horse trips etc.
Do greyhounds ever break legs just running or human athletes? I'd expect similar instances for these as well as horses having breaks in the scenario described above if it was just the activity/competitive strain.
Surely it points to bone problems/weaknesses or tendon issues?
It definitely points to something being wrong (usually an undetected hairline fracture) but I don't think there is anything to link to being raced/broken too young.
I would imagine more to do with racehorses generally working at a much higher level and the stress the body is put under.
I watch quite a bit of football and have seen at least 4 or 5 times, footballers breaking their legs just running, with no trips and no-one else involved. So definitely happens to humans as well as horses.
Again, same as racehorses, they are working their bodies at a very high intensity compared to the rest of the human population.
Not sure whether it is linked to bone density as footballers recover and play again generally- obviously can't tell that with horses though.
Honeylight
Well-Known Member
I think it's a lot to do with current breeding trends. Horses have been raced at two, & there used to be races for yearlings at one time, for years. Racehorses had harder campaigns & ran on harder un-watered surfaces than they do today & there were appear to have been less snapping legs then. The frequency has increased a lot since I began watching racing regularly in the late 1960s.
Horses rarely broke legs between jumps on the flat too, though more were probably killed over obstacles.
Speed maybe a factor especially in NH races, but generally times haven't got much faster in the 20thc. The main things that have changed have been:
A. Training methods, the introduction of interval training, less slow & road work
B. Feeding, cubes & concentrates, horses not as often finished on limestone.
C.Breeding, a much smaller gene pool concentrated on 3 main stallions & one bloodline. Jumping horses are less of the store horse with half bred lines & more often to be a reject from the flat.
I think these are important factors.
Horses rarely broke legs between jumps on the flat too, though more were probably killed over obstacles.
Speed maybe a factor especially in NH races, but generally times haven't got much faster in the 20thc. The main things that have changed have been:
A. Training methods, the introduction of interval training, less slow & road work
B. Feeding, cubes & concentrates, horses not as often finished on limestone.
C.Breeding, a much smaller gene pool concentrated on 3 main stallions & one bloodline. Jumping horses are less of the store horse with half bred lines & more often to be a reject from the flat.
I think these are important factors.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
It's a great article. I have to resist posting the link to it everytime someone says - 'my horse is an X, which is a slow/fast maturing breed' - and I'm thinking 'aaaaargh, all breeds mature at the same rate!'
Faracat I am pretty sure that there is scientific evidence that this is not correct and that flat race bred TBs do have finished bone development early than other horses. Someone may already have mentioned this but I haven't read the whole thread because my dinner is ready
And for an earlier poster, I am sure that there is scientific evidence that early fast work within the young horses capabilities increases bone density in TBs.
I am no fan of racing two year olds, I just wanted to put those bits right.
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Elf On A Shelf
...
I was speaking to a couple of Britains top vets whilst waiting for them to finish fiddling with my horse. I've never bothered looking for written evidence, never saw the need. I see what happens on the track in Bumpers and PTP's and what our own store horses have done and I can well believe it.
GTs
Well-Known Member
I think the problem is not so much age but the fact we are breeding horses to go faster than their bodies can handle. Kind of like your wings falling off your plane.
Susanna - you are quite wrong about US racing. All our horses are warmed up on the way to the gate. Some with ponies, others break away from the pony. But all are warmed up. And as far as the surfaces, it really depends on the track. Del Mar and Santa Anita both had horrible rates on synthetic, while at Saratoga where we run on dirt we might have 1 horse per year break down. In fact last year I think it broke down on the grass.
Susanna - you are quite wrong about US racing. All our horses are warmed up on the way to the gate. Some with ponies, others break away from the pony. But all are warmed up. And as far as the surfaces, it really depends on the track. Del Mar and Santa Anita both had horrible rates on synthetic, while at Saratoga where we run on dirt we might have 1 horse per year break down. In fact last year I think it broke down on the grass.
Murphy88
Well-Known Member
This is the the recent study I mentioned in my earlier post:
The association of 2-year-old training milestones with career length and racing success in a sample of Thoroughbred horses in New Zealand J. C. TANNER*, C.W. ROGERS and E. C. FIRTH†
With a summary from BEVA: http://www.beva.org.uk/news-and-events/news/view/212?dm_i=L78,PWVR,4KXQQU,239QZ,1
Along with two of the references from that paper relevant to the discussion:
- Parkin, T.D.H. (2008) Epidemiology of racetrack injuries in racehorses. Vet. Clin.
N. Am.: Equine Pract. 24, 1-19.
- Verheyen, K., Price, J., Lanyon, L. and Wood, J. (2006) Exercise distance and
speed affect the risk of fracture in racehorses. Bone 39, 1322-1330.
These are peer-reviewed articles published in established scientific journals.
Faracat - re the 'Ranger' article - I admit to only skimming it, however as far as I can tell it is simply an article written by someone based on their own opinion, not properly referenced or peer-reviewed. The author may well believe it is 'mis-application of good research', however that is only her opinion. I am inclined to continue to do my own research based on peer-reviewed evidence such as the above listed articles.
ETS Whether there is other, ethical, reasons to object to racing 2 year olds is another story, and personally I am unsure how I feel it, however I don't think we can use the musculoskeletal injury aspect as an argument against it.
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tristar
Well-Known Member
i always thought that broken legs can happen at fast speeds due to inco-ordination leading to lack of support for surrounding structures, a kind of stress fracture.
i think trainers have too many horses at one time, they ARE raced far too young, any idiot can see that, and to my great disapointment although i wanted to breed racehorses for many years and loved racing the price the horses pay is too high, i could never accept that.
i think trainers have too many horses at one time, they ARE raced far too young, any idiot can see that, and to my great disapointment although i wanted to breed racehorses for many years and loved racing the price the horses pay is too high, i could never accept that.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
Murphy, the person who wrote the Ranger article is a very well known Professor in the USA, she has taught at veterinary school and worked at the Smithsonian Museum and written several books.
She does have very strong opinions, but I doubt if she would put anything in print that wouldn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.
She does have very strong opinions, but I doubt if she would put anything in print that wouldn't stand up to scientific scrutiny.
ClassicG&T
Well-Known Member
I think they are backed and raced far too early. Id wait until they were at LEAST 3 to back and raced at at LEAST 4. The problems they have later in life just mount up.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Faracat I am pretty sure that there is scientific evidence that this is not correct and that flat race bred TBs do have finished bone development early than other horses. Someone may already have mentioned this but I haven't read the whole thread because my dinner is ready
And for an earlier poster, I am sure that there is scientific evidence that early fast work within the young horses capabilities increases bone density in TBs.
I am no fan of racing two year olds, I just wanted to put those bits right.
Can you link to this?
I have read that TB's have a greater bone density than many other breeds, but I have never read anything that has shown that the growth plates on a TB's skeleton close at an earlier age than they do on other horses.
Of course having dense bones is a double edged sword, as when the forces are too much it will shatter and therefore be more likely that the injury will be impossible to pin.
ETA. It is proven that bone does respond to use but there is a balance to be met and I feel that hard work for two year olds is not the correct balance.
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Equilibrium Ireland
Well-Known Member
Amount of problems as opposed to what. Personally I'm not a big fan of 2yo racing myself, but I hear about all these horses having problems compared to _______. Insert what you like there. Most of the time it's a cob that hacks twice a week or does very occasional riding club stuff.
I try and stay out of these arguments for that reason. Doesn't make a difference if you or I like racing babies or what our opinion is really. It is a business bottom line.
FWIW I have seen all sorts of problems on big soft 4&5 yo's sent to me for breaking. Too much grass in big lush fields "maturing physically". Absolute disaster. It comes in all forms.
Terri
I try and stay out of these arguments for that reason. Doesn't make a difference if you or I like racing babies or what our opinion is really. It is a business bottom line.
FWIW I have seen all sorts of problems on big soft 4&5 yo's sent to me for breaking. Too much grass in big lush fields "maturing physically". Absolute disaster. It comes in all forms.
Terri
nosenseofdirection
Well-Known Member
I'm not involved in racing but I would think that the training regime and diet are as much to blame as anything else.
They have a stressful life and a stressful job. If they're lucky, they're rubbish at it and get to retire to live with HHOers!
They have a stressful life and a stressful job. If they're lucky, they're rubbish at it and get to retire to live with HHOers!
Laafet
Well-Known Member
When I did my dissertation into this I found that those that were sales prepped were more likely to be more successful than those that were not with flat bred racehorses in their first year training. As for NH horses when you look at the stats the highest rate of break down for all racehorses Bumpers, with All weather racing coming second! The Bumpers would have been left until 3 or 4 before breaking in. Breaking in and training at a rate that is suitable for that individual is not deterimental for those broken in at 2 as it gives their frame chance to remodel and adapt to the strains of racing or jumping.
TBH I get fed up with people jumping on a bandwagon of lets get rid of racing. If that happens then eventing will be next then all the rest of horse sports, plus I will be unemployed, a small point but very true.
TBH I get fed up with people jumping on a bandwagon of lets get rid of racing. If that happens then eventing will be next then all the rest of horse sports, plus I will be unemployed, a small point but very true.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I honestly do not want to get rid of racing and I hope that I never gave that impression.
I do find this topic (horse age and appropriate work) very interesting and I would be just as happy to discuss it in regards warmbloods being loose jumped at young ages rather than TB's raced at young ages.
Laafet
Well-Known Member
Sorry for that misunderstanding, it has been a long week. I believe that some horses are ready to race at two, I was lucky I used to work for a trainer who did not rush his two year olds and more often than not would not race them until 3. I think loose jumping is very different to galloping youngsters given that it is not something that young horses would naturally do.
Beausmate
Well-Known Member
Sale prepped horses tend to be much better muscled. Some go over the top with the prep though and end up with overgrown horses with problems such as epiphysitis. It's a fine line. We had 17 yearling colts come in from Keeneland, they were well grown and muscled up, the English colts looked like foals in comparison. They had just been left to mooch around the field. One filly we had, broke down before she was broken in. She was by Sir Ivor, who was known for not producing the soundest stock.
So genetics and diet make a difference to growth and maturity too.
Biggest problem though, has to be working/feeding too much too soon, trying to build up structures too fast, so the rest can't catch up. Small things get out of balance and the horse becomes more likely to break down.
So genetics and diet make a difference to growth and maturity too.
Biggest problem though, has to be working/feeding too much too soon, trying to build up structures too fast, so the rest can't catch up. Small things get out of balance and the horse becomes more likely to break down.
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Laafet
Well-Known Member
Oh don't get me started on American horses.......
amandap
Well-Known Member
I am not saying lets get rid of racing either. I want to question some aspects of it as well as other activities.
I'm interested in skeletal maturity as well. I'm wondering about spinal maturity as well as long bones. That has implications for all ridden work. I too have read that the Ranger Piece can be challenged but tbh haven't researched beyond the odd quick search.
I'm interested in skeletal maturity as well. I'm wondering about spinal maturity as well as long bones. That has implications for all ridden work.
I too have read that the Ranger Piece can be challenged but tbh haven't researched beyond the odd quick search.
Tiffany
Well-Known Member
Yes and yes
jeeve
Well-Known Member
I have some English books on Rural Life. It was written in the 1800's . My dad bought it at a red cross stall in the 1940's. It talks at length about the history of horses, dogs, pigs, sheep, cattle, poultry, hunting and husbandry for the gentleman farmer. including lots of stories about individuals and some poetry.
I quote "Both Eclipse and Childers were about 6 years old before they raced; and at the present day , horses run at 2 and 3 years old. Is it to be expected that animals worked at so tender an age can be durable?" It is a familiar theme through the book.
Economics get in the way of good horsemanship, and I do not think that this will change now. Personally, even an extra year for the young horses, so that they were first raced at 3 rather than 2 would probably make a difference.
I quote "Both Eclipse and Childers were about 6 years old before they raced; and at the present day , horses run at 2 and 3 years old. Is it to be expected that animals worked at so tender an age can be durable?" It is a familiar theme through the book.
Economics get in the way of good horsemanship, and I do not think that this will change now. Personally, even an extra year for the young horses, so that they were first raced at 3 rather than 2 would probably make a difference.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
IIRC, in those days the horses often ran several 'heats' on the same day. So the stamina, recovery and fitness needed must have been exceptional.
Mithras
Well-Known Member
Some quite unorthodox views on here, as usual. In human athletes, its accepted that the motor skills and conditioning of bones, ligaments and tendons has to be started early, as if left into late adolescence or adulthood, its almost impossible for the human athlete to catch up their competitors who have been racing and training since 9 or earlier. Most good club coaches won't even take on athletes at 15 or 16 who haven't already got certain times at earlier ages. This is an extremely orthodox, standard view in most sports. Obviously there is wastage along the way, but this hardly means all athletes should sit on their backsides until they are 25. Maybe the Brits want to turn their population into a race of mollycoddled tellytubbies while the rest of the world get on with doing well at sports and having a fit, slim and healthy population, but lets try not to do it to animals as well.
But you do get ballerinas into their forties...Darcey Bussel and Margot Fonteyn spring to my relatively unknowledgable mind, but there are plenty of others.
Lack of adult female gymnasts is more explained by fashions in the sport rather than physical problems...athletics is full of gymnasts who have grown too tall. Hannah England, the UK's silver medallist in the 1500m at the World Athletics Championships last year, was a former gymnast. Gymnastics is recognised as an excellent basis for many sports done as adults.
tbh I think production line warmbloods, rushed through breaking and pinned down into a forced outline too early, stabled most of their early lives, for the sports horse market, and the outfall we get from this in the UK, concerns me more. Along with incompetent riders ruining good horses, of course. All told, if I were a horse, I'd rather be a racehorse as its a better life.
But you do get ballerinas into their forties...Darcey Bussel and Margot Fonteyn spring to my relatively unknowledgable mind, but there are plenty of others.
Lack of adult female gymnasts is more explained by fashions in the sport rather than physical problems...athletics is full of gymnasts who have grown too tall. Hannah England, the UK's silver medallist in the 1500m at the World Athletics Championships last year, was a former gymnast. Gymnastics is recognised as an excellent basis for many sports done as adults.
tbh I think production line warmbloods, rushed through breaking and pinned down into a forced outline too early, stabled most of their early lives, for the sports horse market, and the outfall we get from this in the UK, concerns me more. Along with incompetent riders ruining good horses, of course. All told, if I were a horse, I'd rather be a racehorse as its a better life.
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dominobrown
Well-Known Member
Agree with you Mithras, but the 'wastage' in humans can't be compared to horses. If a runner fell and broke his leg, or snapped his hamstring the doctor wouldn't shoot him! (and maybe/ prpbably make a full recovery). You would if it was a horse, as veterinary medicine (which yes has come a long way) is still no where near as advanced as human medicine.
fburton
Well-Known Member
No of course not, they'd use the injection!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMsLg4jqlJw
But seriously...
So far the discussion has been about physical effects of racing immature horses. What about the mental effects? Would it make a difference if racehorses were started later? Does it even matter?
GTs
Well-Known Member
You could say the same about racehorses - a large number of them go on to polo, eventing, etc and do remarkably well. Many gymnasts break some minor others end up as quads.
Spotsrock
Well-Known Member
My little man came from a very horse savvy yard with a fantastic trainer. nh So started quite late. He's only 5 so a big gangly lad. It's the stress and pressure that gets to him.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I have been thinking about this some more and I really wish that someone would do a proper study with large numbers of young horses.
I'd be particually interested to know what effect stabling has on mental and physical development (we have had a few questions on this forum about unruly youngsters that have had no turnout all winter). What effect does a 50/50 turnout/stable ratio have? How about youngsters turned out 24/7?
Also what 'work' needs to be done to encourage correct development? Does it have to be ridden? Would ponying from another horse or in-hand roadwork have the same effect without putting pressure on the immature spine?
Just some thoughts.
I'd be particually interested to know what effect stabling has on mental and physical development (we have had a few questions on this forum about unruly youngsters that have had no turnout all winter). What effect does a 50/50 turnout/stable ratio have? How about youngsters turned out 24/7?
Also what 'work' needs to be done to encourage correct development? Does it have to be ridden? Would ponying from another horse or in-hand roadwork have the same effect without putting pressure on the immature spine?
Just some thoughts.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The gymnasts are more to do with power to weight ratios than them being broken by doing gymnastics too young. Older people simply carry more weight in relation to the strength of their muscles than younger ones, especially females pre-puberty. It simply isn't possible for a fully mature female to do gymnastics to the level of the under-developed teenagers who win on the world stage.
To prove this point, you do indeed see older male gymnasts, whose power increases with puberty.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I have been thinking about this some more and I really wish that someone would do a proper study with large numbers of young horses.
I'd be particually interested to know what effect stabling has on mental and physical development (we have had a few questions on this forum about unruly youngsters that have had no turnout all winter). What effect does a 50/50 turnout/stable ratio have? How about youngsters turned out 24/7?
Also what 'work' needs to be done to encourage correct development? Does it have to be ridden? Would ponying from another horse or in-hand roadwork have the same effect without putting pressure on the immature spine?
Just some thoughts.
I'd like this too. And unlike other research that we'd like to see, the industry could afford it, but I suspect that they would be too worried about what the result might be to have it done.