Racing; Sir Mark Prescott.

Well now we know the rules are a farce with the latest BHA decision to review Aiden Colemans welsh national ride. Just 2 weeks after the event in which he rode, in the opinion of almost everyone, a super race.
 
The BHA are proving to be a law unto themselves! Very unprofessional! A few hours later you could almost get away with but 2 weeks? Eh naw! It was a great ride - even if I was cheering Pete home who I thought had it won at the last but drifted to come 3rd.
 
KautoStar1 said:
Well now we know the rules are a farce with the latest BHA decision to review Aiden Colemans welsh national ride. Just 2 weeks after the event in which he rode, in the opinion of almost everyone, a super race.
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The Stewards on the day, passed up the opportunity to enquire of Coleman about his riding. As you say, a fortnight later, the powers that be decide that there may be a case to answer. The BHA should be speaking to the Stewards, NOT riding over them and showing scant respect for those who's position it was to judge the event, at the time.

EKW said:
The BHA are proving to be a law unto themselves! Very unprofessional! A few hours later you could almost get away with but 2 weeks? Eh naw! It was a great ride - even if I was cheering Pete home who I thought had it won at the last but drifted to come 3rd.
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The BHA should be considering whether they are fit for purpose, or not. Having decided to ignore the decision of the Stewards on the day, and to save face, I would strongly suspect that they will be forced to take a stand and against the rider, if only to save face.

Doubtful though it is that anyone from that august body will read this thread, should they, I'd suggest that they get there heads around the term 'Joined up thinking'.

Alec.
 
There is a good piece in the Irish Examiner from Ruby Walsh (& on racing post website) where he basically says that if our whip rule was so good how come no other racing authority has taken it up. He also says Aiden's ride in the WN was very good. He used his stick appropriately, in rhythm with the horse & each time he used it the horse responded.
 
K_S1,

why is it that the authorities, most of whom won't of sat on a horse since their Pony Club days, fail to listen to those who ride for a living? They remind me of the pundits on the ML who used to argue with Francome! Yeah, like they'd know wouldn't they? :D:D

Alec.
 
It beats me Alec it really does. It was raised yesterday again on the ML & someone said, can't recall who, that the BHA had done some in depth research on the use of the whip including reviewing horse psychology but had actually failed to speak to any of the top riders.
Well I can review my horses psychology - Archie would you like to go hunting or would you like to go in the manage & practice some half pass. ?? I don't need to write a 1000 page essay on it. I mean honestly what's all that about. Or did the interview Mad Moose ???

I didn't know this until recently but apparently Jim McGrath was indeed an apprentice jockey. Who knew !!!
 
KautoStar1 said:
Well now we know the rules are a farce with the latest BHA decision to review Aiden Colemans welsh national ride. Just 2 weeks after the event in which he rode, in the opinion of almost everyone, a super race.
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I thought it was one of the best rides I've seen in NH for a long time - I can't see how the BHA can decide to review when the stewards at the course already decided to let it go.
 
Mariposa said:
I thought it was one of the best rides I've seen in NH for a long time - I can't see how the BHA can decide to review when the stewards at the course already decided to let it go.
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Another point, should the BHA decide to take the race way from AC, then presumably it will be taken from the horse as well. Right? What is to happen to those who bet on the day, and either backed the winner at the time, or the horse placed second? How can the BHA reverse decisions which affected the outcome of a great deal of money changing hands, on the day, and then a fortnight later bring the decisions taken at the time, by the stewards, in to question?

If they leave the placings as they are (there'll be uproar if they don't), but find Coleman guilty of what is effectively cheating, then if the jockey is found wanting, then so the horse would hardly be entitled to keep the race. If the race is taken from the winner, and the accolade goes to the horse which in reality came in second, then those who have been paid for second place, or gambled on a win, are going to be demanding payment. None of that can happen, because the Bookies won't be able to call back the previous payments made.

Currently, I'm wondering what on earth the BHA are playing at. Perhaps there's more to this debacle than meets the eye. If there is, I'd like to hear of it.

It's laughable! Am I missing something here? :D

Alec.
 
Alec that just about sums it up. In reality AC will get a ban & fine, if they decide to proceed with the enquiry. Which is a travesty for such a good ride.
 
KautoStar1 said:
Alec that just about sums it up. In reality AC will get a ban & fine, if they decide to proceed with the enquiry. Which is a travesty for such a good ride.
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Yes, well that would suggest it has been pre-judged, which is contrary to natural justice, but then if I was a steward at the meeting, I would be "considering my position", surely they are being called incompetent, yet they have been trained by the BHA, and appointed by them.
Worse outcome would be that all voluntary stewards would stop co operating with the BHA.
I could see from the TV replay that he used the whip, but I could not be sure whether it was excessive or even if it contrvenend the rules, though presumably the BHA have better evidence.
 
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I suppose that this brings the opening post, full circle. If Prescott's demands are now being addressed as I believe that they should be, then perhaps this will be a test case. As you say Bonkers, they will have prejudged the case, by bringing it to the fore, but retrospectively, and as you also say, undermining the decision of the Stewards will end in chaos. A fortnight after the event is just lunacy!

It'll be interesting to read of the outcome.

Alec.
 
I don't think it will make any difference. They will continue to ban and fine jockeys at that's it. Which doesn't address the problem of the rule not actually being workable.
 
KautoStar1 said:
There is a good piece in the Irish Examiner from Ruby Walsh (& on racing post website) where he basically says that if our whip rule was so good how come no other racing authority has taken it up. He also says Aiden's ride in the WN was very good. He used his stick appropriately, in rhythm with the horse & each time he used it the horse responded.
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Thank you for heading me towards the RP, and to wit;

Writing in his column in the Irish Examiner, Walsh added: "The BHA thought they would be world leaders when it came to the regulation of the whip. But, and this is very important, not one leading racing nation has followed their lead."

Correct, but then not one other leading racing nation finds that they have their governing body dictated to by welfare societies, who haven't the faintest idea of right and wrong, from any equine perspective.

How difficult would it be for the BHA to tell their 'advisors' to **** off?

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Thank you for heading me towards the RP, and to wit;

Writing in his column in the Irish Examiner, Walsh added: "The BHA thought they would be world leaders when it came to the regulation of the whip. But, and this is very important, not one leading racing nation has followed their lead."

Correct, but then not one other leading racing nation finds that they have their governing body dictated to by welfare societies, who haven't the faintest idea of right and wrong, from any equine perspective.

How difficult would it be for the BHA to tell their 'advisors' to **** off?

Alec.
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I think you have to remember that Ruby, as a professional jockey is not impartial, but having said that , he is level headed and is a Senior Jockey, which is a status well earned. He has given his opinion on the case in point, and also pointed out that other authorities have not followed suit, well who can blame them, but is it true that welfare in UK racing has higher standards than the rest of the world .. I think it is!
This current whip rule has proved flawed, but so did all the others!
From an "equine perspective" who does know right from wrong. Every stakeholder has a different perspective. That is the key problem.
I am glad that things have improved dramatically over last ten years in UK racing, we seem to forget that!
 
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I agree, Ruby’s views might be biased but it’s the jockeys who are at the centre of all of this and no-one seems to have properly represented them. I doubt very much any jockey would publically criticise the ride of another jockey in such a way, so I wouldn’t expect him to say it was a poor ride, which in the case of Aiden Coleman it certainly wasn’t. But the points he makes about the use of the whip in rhythm & the horse responding are relevant.

Welfare standards are very high and hugely improved, but I can’t hand on heart say that the improvement is due to the current whip rule. The whip its self is much better than it was 10 years ago, probably even improved in the last 2 or 3. And jockeys use of it through training and if necessary correctional training has improved too, no doubt. Riding standards are higher but training for aspiring jockeys is much greater than 10 years ago.
Don’t also forget that medical science has opened up all manner of new diagnostics and treatments for equine wellbeing, as well as training methods, feeding etc etc.
Courses now have drainage, frost covers, fences can be moved. All sorts of things have been done to improve every aspect of horse welfare. That’s progress. However, the current whip rule isn’t progress. Its an ill thought out rule designed to put to rest ‘bad publicity’ whipped up (sorry ) by the RSPCA & Animal Aid and to show the general public that racing cares. But there other better ways to educate the general public, if that really is the issue. Personally I suspect the average man on the street doesn’t give a toss.
We can come back round to the question of should the whip be used at all but in which case I believe we would have to look not just at racing, but showjumping, eventing, dressage and in fact any manner of horse sport and pleasure riding.
It’s a bit of a black hole really.
But in essence the BHA have made a big mistake in pandering to the RSPCA etc and making a big public show of it. Because now they have a rule that isn’t practical and when they do uphold the rule, they don’t actually uphold it in full, so it’s a mess.
 
We don t know why the BHA decided to hold this enquiry, are you suggesting the RSPCA complained?

It' s not that man in the street gives a toss, more that he assumes that in the UK that horses are reasonably well treated, and the racing is not third world. The man in the street does not bet on horses and does not go racing. My brother is an intelligent person, but has absolutely no idea that I have been involved in one of the biggest industries in the UK for most of my life, he seems to think I have been tacking up ponies in a riding school.
 
No I don't think the RSPCA have complained. The BHA said it was because they didn't have time on the day but I suspect it was because the media high lighted his ride as being excellent even though he had used his stick 10 times from the bend - about 4 furlongs out. And the BHA thought ***** we missed that.

I agree the man in the street doesn't care & I suspect the man who puts his daily £10 on doesn't care either as long as he wins. The general public are outraged for about 5 mins when it's bought to their attention on grand national day & then they go back to more important things like who will will X factor !!!

My brother is an avid racing fan and really likes horses without actually knowing anything about them or how they work so he doesn't feel qualified to comment on whether the whip is appropriate or not but he agrees that it's a stupid rule which doesn't work & isn't fair to anyone.
 
I think his ride was bought up again after it was discussed on the Morning Line, he did overuse the whip - according to the rules - and it was highlighted in such a way perhaps the BHA decided they had better do something. I thought it was a good ride, the horse didn't finish exhausted and on his knees, which I hate to see.
I was a bit sceptical about thw rules when they came in but if you watvh Irish racing now it looks very hard on the horses compared to ours, they just seem to keep going whack, whack, whack.
 
Clodagh said:
. I thought it was a good ride, the horse didn't finish exhausted and on his knees, which I hate to see.
I was a bit sceptical about thw rules when they came in but if you watvh Irish racing now it looks very hard on the horses compared to ours, they just seem to keep going whack, whack, whack.
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This is what I am afraid of, we have managed to reduce overuse of the whip in the UK, other countries have not, they don t want to get involved in this controversy, but I prefer a lot of hot air to a lot of hard pressed horses.
 
If they're not careful, they'll turn it into the same sort of farce as F1 is IMO. I know the two things are not directly comparable but there has been so much meddling with the rules in F1 it is no longer the sport it was and I know Im not the only one who finds it pretty boring nowadays. I know safety is paramount, thats another issue, but overly complicating it and having so many different rules and regs does not make for good viewing. Im not sure who the powers that be are trying to pacify?
 
MyBoyChe said:
…….. there has been so much meddling with the rules in F1 it is no longer the sport it was and I know Im not the only one who finds it pretty boring nowadays. ……..?
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Once any attempt is made at sterilising a sport, so the edge of risk is removed and the sport is no longer 'sport'. Without 'risk', then a sport becomes clinical and boring. I can't remember that I watched one Grand Prix last year. Even the Touring Cars have succumbed to a sensible approach. As you say, Boring!

One day, jump horses, and their jockeys will be wearing 'air-bags'. :D

Alec.
 
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Actually I think the use of air jackets for jockeys isn't a bad thing to look at.
But I agree, you sterilise everything down to zero.
Isn't it today that AC sees the BHA for his review. Will be interesting to see what comes out of that, but whatever the conclusion the whole thing has been a farce.
I am certainly not saying there shouldn't be rules but they rules need to take in to account the practicality of actually riding in a race & once those rules are defined then they need to be upheld properly.
I'm still waiting to hear a jockey say he lost a race that he could have won if he'd been able to use his whip using his own discretion.
 
KautoStar1 said:
Actually I think the use of air jackets for jockeys isn't a bad thing to look at.
But I agree, you sterilise everything down to zero.
Isn't it today that AC sees the BHA for his review. Will be interesting to see what comes out of that, but whatever the conclusion the whole thing has been a farce.
I am certainly not saying there shouldn't be rules but they rules need to take in to account the practicality of actually riding in a race & once those rules are defined then they need to be upheld properly.
I'm still waiting to hear a jockey say he lost a race that he could have won if he'd been able to use his whip using his own discretion.
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Actually that did happen to me! well the jockey that was riding my horse at the time said he 'ran out of smacks, one, more and he would have won'. Horse lost by a short head.
Granted this wasn't a high profile race (very low profile) so no-one other than connections were interested ( and the punters that had backed him). I remember being a little disgruntled on the day - the difference in prize money from 1st to 2nd is quite a drop, and I'd backed him to win...but after hearing Alec's arguments about jockeys abiding by the rules then I've changed my view about it
 
Interesting comments made on the Morning Line this morning, particularly Ruby who when asked if he found it difficult to adjust to the rules of the country he was riding in said "I dont change the way I ride, I ride the way I think I need to" or words to that effect. Suggesting I thought, that he considers he treats each horse as an individual and does what he needs to, to achieve the best result possible for him, the owner, the trainer, the punters and the horse. He made no secret of the fact he thinks the English rule is a nonsense. I must admit I do find it hard to believe that a jockey can count the number of strikes he gives whilst riding a finish, trying to stay straight and hold the horse together! The debate rumbles on.... And Alec, the only F1 I watched last season was Monaco, the Saturday practise coverage because I think the scenery is stunning :)
 
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