Blurr
Well-Known Member
I'm on the planet where the owners of race horses don't want to pay to keep them for three years before finding out if they're any good. That's why they race two year olds.
Racing Welfare: The Horse Comes First
- Thread starter Spilletta
- Start date
I'm on the planet where the owners of race horses don't want to pay to keep them for three years before finding out if they're any good. That's why they race two year olds.
Optimissteeq
Well-Known Member
I am incline to agreed with you to a degree, but I don't understand the logic behind this. Surely it costs more to have a two year old horse in training than it does having a two year old at grass in a field? This is the part I don't get - if it boiled down to costs alone then it would be cheaper to wait until it's three wouldn't it? I can see the breeders wanting an earlier return on their money but if science proves (caveating that I am not saying it does) it's better to wait then why 'waste' money training two year olds...
I can only go off my own experience here - horse in training =expensive, horse not in training, less expensive! By the way - my horse was 3 before he started training, and was still rubbish!
And for the person who says horses never have a day off - again from personal experience thats not true. for my local yard, when in training, the horses have Sunday off (if not running) and have a complete break of several weeks/months once they've finished for their season.
Alec Swan
...
I think that it should be borne in mind that those 2 YOs which go in to training, are generally the most precocious and forward of colts. Are 2 YO fillies in training? It would surprise me.
Optimissteeq, and again, those 2 YOs which are not considered to be worth the Trainer's fees are generally turned away to allow them to mature for another year, as many do.
I do agree though, that when once-upon-a-time we had horses which come over from Ireland as unbacked 5 and 6 YOs, so they were horses which had full and useful lives before them, and it does seem a shame to take the best from a youngster whilst it's still so young, only to have it on the scrap-heap and at an age when it may well have been able to prove it's worth, had there only been a little patience.
Racing is a serious business, and expecting 'Owners' and 'Breeders' to be patient will never happen, and that's because both the Owner and the Trainer give little thought, generally, to the long term, and to the animal itself. 'Horses for Courses', if you see what I mean!
Alec.
Optimissteeq, and again, those 2 YOs which are not considered to be worth the Trainer's fees are generally turned away to allow them to mature for another year, as many do.
I do agree though, that when once-upon-a-time we had horses which come over from Ireland as unbacked 5 and 6 YOs, so they were horses which had full and useful lives before them, and it does seem a shame to take the best from a youngster whilst it's still so young, only to have it on the scrap-heap and at an age when it may well have been able to prove it's worth, had there only been a little patience.
Racing is a serious business, and expecting 'Owners' and 'Breeders' to be patient will never happen, and that's because both the Owner and the Trainer give little thought, generally, to the long term, and to the animal itself. 'Horses for Courses', if you see what I mean!
Alec.
Optimissteeq
Well-Known Member
Hi Alec,
not 100% convinced it's only the colts that go into training as 2 year olds, but I don't have the data to hand to be able to disagree. I am uncomfortable with training as early as two - I've heard many an argument from trainers to justify why it happens, but not actually seen any scientific evidence published to say it is beneficial - someone please feel free to enlighten me
I am a small time owner/breeder and so I do my level best to guarantee the horses future post racing. The afore mentioned failed racer is now looking promising as my next eventer (should I be able to get a saddle that fits us both). But I am a in a minority I know.
Racing is indeed a serious business and it is changing for the better in my view. There will always be more room for improvement, but raising the age limit is probably not going to be a consideration for a long time (if ever).
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
That is not why an owner buys a two year old: he might have to fork out 100,000gns for an unraced two year old, so another 3K to keep it till it was three is not relevant.
Breeders are in the business of breeding and in order to keep their heads above water they have to sell them, the market demands young horses, so there are foal sales and yearling sales and breeze ups and two year old sales, but owners can buy older horses if they want to.
Typically an owner puts the horse he buys in to training straight away, he does not take it home.
The owners who have the facility to keep horses at home may have a few out of training, or youngstock, but the trainer trains horses on the understanding that when they are fit and are capable of giving a reasonable show on a racecourse they will run in a race to suit their level..
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Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Colts and fillies may run at age two, and if in a mixed race the fillies generally get a weight allowance.
Backward types may be entered in a little race near the end of the season, you will often see the top trainers running a few well bred animals to give them a bit of experience, so they start their serious racing career age three.
There is no point in running poor specimens if they have no future in racing, so there are some who are in trainng but never see a racecourse.
Backward types may be entered in a little race near the end of the season, you will often see the top trainers running a few well bred animals to give them a bit of experience, so they start their serious racing career age three.
There is no point in running poor specimens if they have no future in racing, so there are some who are in trainng but never see a racecourse.
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Piglet123
New User
I work in a racing yard and our horses get turned out everyday and have sundays off if not running. after a race they have 2/3 days off to chill out and when season has finished they have 2 months off! Granted we are a small yard but I can tell you first hand, racehorses are a lot better cared for than people might think and if you have never worked in the industry how do you know?
If anyone has ever worked in a big livery yard or dressage yard like i have I bet you, like me, have horror stories to tell about things you may have seen?! I for one would never keep my horse on full livery unless i knew the yard VERY well, but i do know there are lovely yards out there as well as nasty ones.
Dressage horses standing in their boxes with side reins so tight they cant move their heads, always ridden in draw reins or in rolkur position - is that nice for a horse? Livery yards with no turn out at all - horses put on the walker for 20 mins a day and then in their stable for the rest of 23 and a half hours with very little hay and no people interaction.
People should not be so tunnel vision about racing and realise there will be conflict of opinion in every discipline. I dont completly agree with 2yr olds racing but then is making your horse jump massive fences at Grand Prix level or " dancing" in the dressage arena at GP level any better for them regardless of age! None of it is natural for a horse, we are the ones who have made horses into domesticated animals and made them move and do things which is not natural for them and then we go and judge each other for they way you may look after your horse, when we are all guilty for taking them as far away from natural as possibly ( granted I know some people keep them very naturally like we do with our retired horses ) Look at polo ponies if you want to begin another debate, some of them are horrifically treated!
It is very unfair to tarnish every racing yard with the same brush. In every single discipline in the world you will get people that treat their horses with respect and love that they deserve and people who shouldnt be allowed to have animals and treat them no better than machines. This is why if people want to help we should support the work of the BHS, Hereo's, Blue cross etc for the work they do helping these horses that cant speak for themselves.
If anyone has ever worked in a big livery yard or dressage yard like i have I bet you, like me, have horror stories to tell about things you may have seen?! I for one would never keep my horse on full livery unless i knew the yard VERY well, but i do know there are lovely yards out there as well as nasty ones.
Dressage horses standing in their boxes with side reins so tight they cant move their heads, always ridden in draw reins or in rolkur position - is that nice for a horse? Livery yards with no turn out at all - horses put on the walker for 20 mins a day and then in their stable for the rest of 23 and a half hours with very little hay and no people interaction.
People should not be so tunnel vision about racing and realise there will be conflict of opinion in every discipline. I dont completly agree with 2yr olds racing but then is making your horse jump massive fences at Grand Prix level or " dancing" in the dressage arena at GP level any better for them regardless of age! None of it is natural for a horse, we are the ones who have made horses into domesticated animals and made them move and do things which is not natural for them and then we go and judge each other for they way you may look after your horse, when we are all guilty for taking them as far away from natural as possibly ( granted I know some people keep them very naturally like we do with our retired horses ) Look at polo ponies if you want to begin another debate, some of them are horrifically treated!
It is very unfair to tarnish every racing yard with the same brush. In every single discipline in the world you will get people that treat their horses with respect and love that they deserve and people who shouldnt be allowed to have animals and treat them no better than machines. This is why if people want to help we should support the work of the BHS, Hereo's, Blue cross etc for the work they do helping these horses that cant speak for themselves.
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Not true Alex.
Breeders are very patient, it takes four years of planning to get return for your money paid from the purchase of a brood mare, and it costs at lot in between, not including the stallion fee, purchase of a stud farm and staff employment.
Many owners have an interest in breeding and will have good family lines, they may have invested many years in racing, Robert Ogden, The Aga Khan, Oppenheimer, many others.
Trainers have to pass exams, put in a stack of money, find owners employ staff, etc etc, they are in it for the long term, yes they need to make it pay, but their primary motivation is to train horses to win races year in year out.
There are plenty of horses which run for many years and give their owners much pleasure.
But no trainer would suggest owning a racehorse as a safe investment.
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PaddyMonty
Well-Known Member
This in a nutshell which is why making a big thing about the horse coming first is just wrong. Return on investment comes first, the horse second.
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Its a pity that so many people have so little understanding of this industry which is one of the top earners in the UK.
The UK is World Class in terms of race quality, of breeding knowledge, staff training, veterinary care, horse welfare etc etc. Top jockeys from around the world will ride here, horses are sent here from Europe, the Americas, and Australia to compete in our top races. It is the envy of the world, and all we get is people knocking it.
The UK is World Class in terms of race quality, of breeding knowledge, staff training, veterinary care, horse welfare etc etc. Top jockeys from around the world will ride here, horses are sent here from Europe, the Americas, and Australia to compete in our top races. It is the envy of the world, and all we get is people knocking it.
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
What is the return on investment for the average owner? [Its rhetoric].
The average one horse owner has sufficient disposable income to spend £20,000 per annum on his hobby.
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Optimissteeq
Well-Known Member
i would hazard a guess at the 'average' owner not getting an increase return on their 'investment'. many do it for the love of racing, not to make a profit.....Those that do are very lucky
And I did acknowledge the rhetoric bit....but answered anyway!
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
i would hazard a guess at the 'average' owner not getting an increase return on their 'investment'. many do it for the love of racing, not to make a profit.....Those that do are very lucky
And I did acknowledge the rhetoric bit....but answered anyway!
Correct. Though they could easily do better in France where prize money is more realistic.
I worked for a novice trainer, father very wealthy, she had twelve to eighteen horses in training, three staff full time plus two part time,, after three or four months we got a winner, cost of wages £18,000, winnings £1800.
PaddyMonty
Well-Known Member
ROI does not have to be in money terms. Prestige of owning horse racing. Using as a corporate day out or with group of friends etc. The excitement of seeing your horse run? There are many ways the owner is repaid for their investment but I would hazard a guess that their main concerns are that the horse is running in races and preferably getting placed.
Optimissteeq
Well-Known Member
Not to the detriment of the horse though - of course an owner wants to see their horse run and get placed, but given they are as you put it 'an investment' then the horses well being generally does come first (putting aside the training at 2 years debate).
I find this type of debate fascinating and frustrating in equal measures - clearly the perception of racing is far from favourable but the racing industry feels that they have done much to improve, and yet it's not being recognised. Generalising a lot in this last statement I know!
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
The perception of racing seems to be from a lot of ill informed people who have little interest in racing, little knowledge of racing and yet are telling those in racing to put their house in order.
This is not uncommon, when I tell people I go to the races they assume I go to bet, which is illogical, it is much easier to bet from my laptop. Most people in racing probably don't bet. The two interests are different, and though I only bet on horses, not any other sport, I never considered betting to be the reason for my interest in racehorses. My interest in racehorses started through riding out, and then I found a new world in the racing community. It is a fascinating hobby/job/interest, it does not have to be about betting, and it s not about the abuse of horses to make owners happy to invest.
This is not uncommon, when I tell people I go to the races they assume I go to bet, which is illogical, it is much easier to bet from my laptop. Most people in racing probably don't bet. The two interests are different, and though I only bet on horses, not any other sport, I never considered betting to be the reason for my interest in racehorses. My interest in racehorses started through riding out, and then I found a new world in the racing community. It is a fascinating hobby/job/interest, it does not have to be about betting, and it s not about the abuse of horses to make owners happy to invest.
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PaddyMonty
Well-Known Member
I think you need to put aside a little more than just racing at 2 for the statement to be true. Add in over feeding and the resulting deformities, lack of turnout etc. The horse is just a commodity to most (not all) owners. Whilst those looking after the horses may well have the horses best interests at heart they can only work within the confines of the needs of the industry.
I agree the industry has made significant improvements for which it should be commended but it still has a long way to go, given the poor starting point, before the horse comes first. With the amount of money involved in racing I doubt it will ever be the case.
I agree the industry has made significant improvements for which it should be commended but it still has a long way to go, given the poor starting point, before the horse comes first. With the amount of money involved in racing I doubt it will ever be the case.
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Yes, that would be the idea, how is that different to the average horse owner whose main motivation is to gain pleasure from horse ownership, perhaps by riding or showing, eventing, driving, etc etc.
Like novice horse owners who buy in to the sport initially knowing very little, novice racehorse owners gain knowledge as they go along, and this makes it more interesting for them. For most it will be all about the social side of racegoing, but some will pursue their interest further, very few will invest their capital and make it a business proposition, to many this would defeat the object.
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marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, and would say the same for most dressage and SJ yards, yet no one seems to complain about them. Also agree with Bonkers, whilst I don't agree with racing horses at two, at least they are ridden by light weight professionals and have the best care (veterinary, feeding, etc) money can buy, most are ridden in basic snaffles, no tying down or gadgets.
At the yard my horse came from they ALL go out daily unless the weather or ground is really bad. I walked round a yard full of happy horses, not one was grumpy or pulled a face. I'd sooner put a horse in a racing yard than dressage/SJ/showing any day.
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Really pointless continuing this discussion. You seem to have a very skewed view, I don't know where you get these ideas.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
My horse (whom I picked up myself straight from a racing yard six months ago) has no such issues. He is very sweet and cuddly, has fabulous manners and happily hacks alone and in company. I can also say the same of my previous ex racehorse.
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
What an excellent and knowledgable post. Well done!
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
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Spilletta
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I haven't really contributed to my own thread but it's because I'm not too good at writing a decent post when it matters.
I think racing gets too hard a time - hence the reason for seeing the positive message in "The Horse Comes First" and trying to help it along by posting the link. I'm not saying the industry is perfect but I think it's trying. I may be naive but I think it's a genuine, rather than a cynical, effort to show that racing people do care. Sure, money needs to be made, but doesn't it across most horsey enterprises from livery yards to riding schools to dressage, polo and showjumping yards?
Piglet123's post hits the nail on the head for me, and I certainly couldn't have put it better myself!
I think racing gets too hard a time - hence the reason for seeing the positive message in "The Horse Comes First" and trying to help it along by posting the link. I'm not saying the industry is perfect but I think it's trying. I may be naive but I think it's a genuine, rather than a cynical, effort to show that racing people do care. Sure, money needs to be made, but doesn't it across most horsey enterprises from livery yards to riding schools to dressage, polo and showjumping yards?
Piglet123's post hits the nail on the head for me, and I certainly couldn't have put it better myself!
Exploding Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
You are fine, whenever racing is mentioned there are always a flurry of ante racing posts, I agree with you, [obviously].
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Out of interest is that flat or jump?
Spilletta
Well-Known Member
Thanks Bonkers2. I have sometimes wondered if H&H should add a racing forum but not sure if it would be that popular. I don't get the magazine often but racing coverage seems to have decreased quite a lot. Oh well!
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EquiEquestrian556
Well-Known Member
Agree with backing them later (& racing too), and more turnout. Faracat, just thought I'd mention this to you. We have a new kitten (our beautiful old lady was PTS in May) and she's currently trying to 'play' and touch your running cat, with great interest! 
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
Awww - you're going to have to post some photos of your kitten now!
fburton
Well-Known Member
Bonkers2, do you believe the racing industry is perfect and there is no room for improvement at all? I suspect you don't. Would you like it to change for the better? Maybe not, if that means potentially disruptive changes. However, I see "giving racing a hard time" (at least in areas where improvements could be made) as one of the main motivating forces for change. It doesn't mean the people who criticize are necessarily anti racing.