Racing Welfare: The Horse Comes First

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I am not sure what you mean NH stallions and their offspring, most coverings are made to breed flat horses, Saddlers Wells was one of the best NH stallions, but his fees were such that breeders were looking for flat horses.
From conception to proving themselves over fences could easily take 5 or six years, and in the first few years of standing at stud most fees would be quite high, more than most NH breeders would want to pay.
There is no "category" NH or "flat" on the passport.

 

[Racergirl]

the first thing that I said when I met my current broodmare was "**** you're big" - luckily the people I bought her from know me or I would have sounded a right numpty!! At the time I had a peace loving sprint broodmare who was just over 15hh and was Sharing a field with a 14hh pony, so to suddenly be faced with just over 16 hands of leggy snorting mare was quite a shock 😄

I think there's a definite divide in stallions, although you wouldn't be able to say that a particular stallion wouldn't produce for one code, a lot will depend on the mares he gets sent and I think that ends up being the deciding factor.depending on the mare, Id happily send a flat mare to some of the stallions in the TBA elite mares book (though it's not out of the question!) and my mostly NH mare could easily go to a flat stallion - it's just all about research.
Of course it's as much about luck, no matter how well you think you've looked into it !!!

 

[Michen]

I think my view on the racing world has been tainted from my experience with Torres but if I ever take another horse off the track (and it would have to be something really special) it will not be a flat racer.

When I went to see T he had been in his box for 10 days. 10 solid days without being exercised, led out, turned out (as he had bled and therefore officially retired). I will never forget the sad little horse that arrived off the lorry and, when turned out, stood in the middle of the field staring into space for hours. You could be forgiven for thinking he had tetanus.

I know not all horses come out of racing like this, but he was a real mess. Physically and emotionally.

 

[Horsetruth]

Yes well said that Piglet. And there are many dressage horses that never get turned out. In countries with extreme climayes the horses don't get turned out either for whole spans of time because of the weather. Our show jumpers in Canada and Switzerland were in their barns all winter and on limited if any turn out during the summer because there was not enough room.

 

[Nudibranch]

Michen I have a former (flat) racer - the third off the track horse I have owned - who also has a few issues. He won 11 races but then suffered a suspensory injury and went to rehab livery. He was abandoned there by his owner (and presumably the trainer played no further part). He now lives out and seems to suit it but is on something of a last chance as he ran through a fence while out, for no apparent reason, and sustained £2K worth of injuries. It may have just been a freak accident but there may be underlying behavioural issues which have not fully surfaced yet. He did indeed have ulcers on arrival, and if stabled will box walk, crib and weave. None of the three I owned were entirely issue free.

I am not using these examples to either defend or attack the industry; I am just stating what I have seen. I have no opinion either way quite honestly, however I do have experience of dealing with horses who have gone through the system as opposed to being still within it.

 

[Alec Swan]

Yes well said that Piglet. And there are many dressage horses that never get turned out. In countries with extreme climayes the horses don't get turned out either for whole spans of time because of the weather. Our show jumpers in Canada and Switzerland were in their barns all winter and on limited if any turn out during the summer because there was not enough room.

Though not so common these days, those horses which are Army mounts and those in private ownership in the centre of London, are or mostly were stalled and none that I saw ever came to any harm. Providing that they have adequate care and they're out on exercise or working, then they very soon settle to the routine and are none the worse for it!

Alec.

 

[ycbm]

Though not so common these days, those horses which are Army mounts and those in private ownership in the centre of London, are or mostly were stalled and none that I saw ever came to any harm. Providing that they have adequate care and they're out on exercise or working, then they very soon settle to the routine and are none the worse for it!

Alec.

I think that some time in the future we may recognise that many of those horses are simply shut down and resigned to their inescapable fate, and that many are far from happy.

 

[glenruby]

Alec - I would guess it tells you that the market for GB bred NH horses is poor - they are being bred in Ireland. Secondly, the number of decent NH stallions standing in the UK is abysmal - Dunadin, Midnight Legend and Kayf Tara are among the most successful/popular. As a result many British breeders are sending their mares to Ireland for covering - which will result in many foals belonging to UK breeders being foaled down in Ireland.

Clodagh - just as well she hasn't contributed much to the gene pool, as she was (I believe) euthanised in 2006 after more foot related problems. It appears she only had 2 fillies of which only one has had offspring go through the ring.

 

[Clodagh]

Clodagh - just as well she hasn't contributed much to the gene pool, as she was (I believe) euthanised in 2006 after more foot related problems. It appears she only had 2 fillies of which only one has had offspring go through the ring.

Thank you for that, very interesting.

 

[tristar]

Bosra Sham had the same genes as thousands of racehorses that being bred from today, she was bred from top class stallion lines, she was just one mare.

she was a champion racehorse, she did this in spite of her feet, she won nearly £600.000.

her trainer the late Henry Cecil said,` she was the best I ever trained, even better than the colts`

run free beautiful girl

 

[marmalade76]

And provide more turnout. That's my one major issue with the industry.

Today I visited the NH yard my horse came from with a friend who's looking to rehome an ex racehorse after a two or three year break from owning (after riding mine she just had to have one of her own!) Here are the mares out on their summer hols, all happy, chilled and beautifully behaved as we fussed them and chatted about them for a good half hour.

The mare my friend has agreed to take has been turned away here for the last twelve months waiting for the right home to come along, nothing wrong with her, no injuries, just wasn't good enough as a racehorse.

 

[Alec Swan]

Lovely pics marmalade. We no longer have a herd of mares, but when we did, the best times were always in the evenings, when going to them and just spending time, watching and being with them. I envy you!

Alec.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Alec - I would guess it tells you that the market for GB bred NH horses is poor - they are being bred in Ireland. Secondly, the number of decent NH stallions standing in the UK is abysmal - Dunadin, Midnight Legend and Kayf Tara are among the most successful/popular. As a result many British breeders are sending their mares to Ireland for covering - which will result in many foals belonging to UK breeders being foaled down in Ireland.

Worth noting that French bred NH horses are "fashionable" at the moment. We've somehow ended up with 2.
The mare is a big lass (17hh) by Passing Sale who has US lines but she is very French on her dam's side one grand-dam is actually "arab complement" so she's closer to the arab than a lot of the UK bred TBs - although that hasn't given her good feet x-(
The gelding is a lot smaller with a mixture of US/French lines and a lot of (to me) new blood.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Worth noting that French bred NH horses are "fashionable" at the moment. We've somehow ended up with 2.
The mare is a big lass (17hh) by Passing Sale who has US lines but she is very French on her dam's side one grand-dam is actually "arab complement" so she's closer to the arab than a lot of the UK bred TBs - although that hasn't given her good feet x-(
The gelding is a lot smaller with a mixture of US/French lines and a lot of (to me) new blood.

I have a BIG French horse. All 17.2hh of him. Currently standing on box rest - again! He is all French bred and goes back quite quickly to Selle Francais on the mothers side. The father French bred TB for 3 generations before some English slips in.

Not forgetting Kauto Star who was French too.

 

[marmalade76]

Lovely pics marmalade. We no longer have a herd of mares, but when we did, the best times were always in the evenings, when going to them and just spending time, watching and being with them. I envy you!

Alec.

Thank you

 

[Spilletta]

Marmalade, my idea of horsey heaven - a field of bay TB mares!

I sometimes wonder why racing gets picked out a lot for lack of turnout. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples out there, but of the racing stables I know of, there is turnout - better turnout than for many 'normal' horses I've seen.

It's almost as if whatever the industry does to improve things, it'll never be good enough. I'm not linked in any way to "The Horse Comes First" (in case anyone was wondering since I posted the original link). I'm just a keen supporter: maybe non-supporters will think I'm a naïve optimist for thinking the horse does, indeed, come first. I ride out a bit - not my day job, so obviously only a small snapshot just from my experience - and the horses have been some of the most well-adjusted, happy horses I've met even if they're not currently on turnout.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Not forgetting Kauto Star who was French too.

and Long Run

 

[Dobiegirl]

French breds have been on the NH racing scene for a long time now, Martin Pipe was the first I believe to see their potential and use them.

 

[marmalade76]

Marmalade, my idea of horsey heaven - a field of bay TB mares!

I sometimes wonder why racing gets picked out a lot for lack of turnout. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples out there, but of the racing stables I know of, there is turnout - better turnout than for many 'normal' horses I've seen.

Indeed, and I very much doubt you'd see this on a dressage or SJ yard.


Friend's new horse will be delivered tomorrow, she's so excited! She the one in the centre, doesn't she look well?!

I was told the leaner ones have recently been brought over from France.

This is mine, picked him up back in January.

 

[Alec Swan]

The very same concerns and comments which surround the Race Horse can also be levelled at the Greyhound. Both are bred for one purpose, and whilst in training, generally, their needs are attended too. The problem often arises when their racing days are over, and often at a young age, considering their general lifespan, and to subject a horse or a dog to a life for which it wasn't bred, intended, schooled or used, must have us wondering.

Of course there are those who are competent and who have the knowledge and the experience which will enable them to find and provide a secondary life for the occasional horse or dog, but I see so many that languish. Brood mares which live as a herd seem to be quite content with their lot, slopping about being pregnant and then rearing foals, and there will be those as I've said, who will come in to work of a different nature when in the hands of the competent owner or rider, but there are many former Race Horses and Racing Greyhounds too which are subjected to the misery of retirement. Too many I think.

Alec.

 

[ester]

Marmalade, my idea of horsey heaven - a field of bay TB mares!

I sometimes wonder why racing gets picked out a lot for lack of turnout. I'm not saying there aren't bad examples out there, but of the racing stables I know of, there is turnout - better turnout than for many 'normal' horses I've seen.

Flat or NH out of interest?

 

[Alec Swan]

Thinking about our responsibilities, and after further thought, the answer quite clearly and the responsibility for horses and dogs too, which have come out of training lays with the Owner and if they'll listen to the Trainer's advice, then them too. Specifically with horses, the Trainer and the Staff who know the horse best, will be very well aware of the animal's temperament and its likely future, either in competition, or even as a happy-hacker.

It's the Owners who need to be pressed in to issuing clear instructions to the Trainers, or those who have charge of their horses, that their property, if it can't be placed where it will have a quality of life, should be humanely disposed of. There are still too many, who rather than face the disposal costs, will accept the £500 from the sale of the horse, without giving the animal a second thought.

The question of Racing Welfare, of any animal, falls squarely upon the shoulders of the Owners, all of them.

Alec.

 

[marmalade76]

The trainer takes charge of this in the yard my horse came from, probably not for all the horses, but obviously offers this to her owners. Mine was listed as belonging to her when I took him on.

 

[Spilletta]

Flat or NH out of interest?

Both, although they are probably relatively small compared with yards in Newmarket or Lambourne, for example. So only a very small snapshot.

 

[ester]

Thanks, in my head NH horses tend to get turned out but I really haven't across many flat yards to know!

 

[lizziebell]

I'm not anti-racing and enjoy a day at the races. I do believe that for the majority of people working directly with racehorses, the horses welfare comes first.

I do however, as others have posted, dislike seeing 2 year olds race. At a meet several weeks ago, the 2 year olds I watched close up in the paddock prior to racing didn't look any more mentally or even physically more mature than my 2 year old Warmblood.

I also have concerns over the use of foster mares, specifically the outcome of their birth foals. There are so many indiscriminately bred horses in this country already, without fuelling this with foals born purely to provide foster mares to the racing industry.

 

[marmalade76]

I think Measfen (sp?) has a couple of the foster mare foals.

 

[pip6]

I think the thing that really bothers me about 2yr olds racing, is that they've been backed as yearlings and put into work. When you see them as 2 year olds (ie babies) on the racecourse, they lost all pretence of a 'childhood' for want of a better description when they had time to grow as a young horse should, as a yearling. People are very ready to attack travellers for breaking such young horses and driving them, well this is no better to me. The youngsters we bred are given time to be youngsters. Let's not forget that a horse of ANY breed is no skeletally mature until 7 years old. Hot housing them does not change this.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

At least the fostermares have a job. At some studs the foals with only the best conformation and chance of a decent life andcareer go on. A lot are culles atweaning. As unpleasant as that may be to most at least thestud farms are taking responsibility of them.

 

[Optimissteeq]

Thinking about our responsibilities, and after further thought, the answer quite clearly and the responsibility for horses and dogs too, which have come out of training lays with the Owner and if they'll listen to the Trainer's advice, then them too. Specifically with horses, the Trainer and the Staff who know the horse best, will be very well aware of the animal's temperament and its likely future, either in competition, or even as a happy-hacker.

It's the Owners who need to be pressed in to issuing clear instructions to the Trainers, or those who have charge of their horses, that their property, if it can't be placed where it will have a quality of life, should be humanely disposed of. There are still too many, who rather than face the disposal costs, will accept the £500 from the sale of the horse, without giving the animal a second thought.

The question of Racing Welfare, of any animal, falls squarely upon the shoulders of the Owners, all of them.

Alec.

Hmmm, i don't think it's that easy though Alec. I personally take responsibility but, as discussed on here multiple times, you can never guarantee a horses future once it has been sold on. If the trainer were to advise the horse gets re-homed, there's nothing to say that the home is suitable, or that the horse will stay with that home.
On the front of humanely destroying those that are not suitable to be re-homed, how will this be viewed by Joe Public? given the racing industry already receives a large amount of negative publicity/perception, I can't imagine this will help at all - whether it's the right thing to do or not. it would have to be managed very sensitively, if it were to become common practice.
i'm not saying I don't agree by the way - I'm just offering a perspective as an owner that it's not that easy from what I've seen