"Rain Scald" on stifles 5 months after surgery??

[Landcruiser]

My vet's-retirement-plan youngster has thrown up another mystery. About a week ago I was horrified to find both stifles radiating heat. She had exploratory arthroscopy on both in October (which revealed minor damage on the R lateral meniscus). She had 2 weeks box rest then 4 months small pen with hand walking, the last 2 months at a rehab yard because she was so hard to handle. She's been at home for 3 weeks now, out with an old gelding on my winter turnout area which is a decent size.
Anyway, the heat!!! Like - really, really hot. But a tiny investigation revealed that the skin over both outer stifles was scabby and crusty under the hair, and it was these patches which were so hot. Each stifle, a patch about the size of an outstretched hand, I mean, FFS! I have never come across anything like this.
My bodyworker though maybe compromised immune system and possibly compromised skin from shaving/surgical spirits etc when the surgery was done. (So strange, given it's only just showed up). I'm treating the patches as if they are mud fever (Baby oil and flowers of sulphur) and the scabs are softening/scratching off leaving pink skin underneath. The heat is almost gone, about 5 days into treatment, so I'm assuming I'm on the right track.
Bingo card ideas for what she is going to present me with next?
(She's the same youngster with bruising around all four hooves I posted about a week or two ago - that's growing out nicely now, thanks! )

 

[greasedweasel]

Feel free to ignore but just throwing some thoughts out there...!

There is nothing in this fillies breeding that suggests you should be having the problems you are, now I know I'm not an unbiased view but the sire is robust and I have always liked the dam line, she has produced some really good useful horses. I am not saying this to make you think "yeah, oh joy, I got the shit one"! I genuinely considered buying your filly, I really liked the idea of the cross.

So what is going wrong? I don't know but is there any option for you to take a step back. If she was mine I'd find a big field with other youngsters and throw her out for a year to eighteen months. When you are saying she has flat feet, a toe first landing, problems with her stifle... etc etc i just think "there is something we are missing here" and in all honesty it's not her genetics, as you know Criollos tend to be more upright in the feet.

I just feel, and I know its oh so easy to say, this filly needs managed differently (not better, just different) - vets will happily take your money but I am not sure micro managing her is going to sort your issues (but yes also, stifle heat - auto immune)

Does that make any sense?!

 

[Landcruiser]

Feel free to ignore but just throwing some thoughts out there...!

There is nothing in this fillies breeding that suggests you should be having the problems you are, now I know I'm not an unbiased view but the sire is robust and I have always liked the dam line, she has produced some really good useful horses. I am not saying this to make you think "yeah, oh joy, I got the shit one"! I genuinely considered buying your filly, I really liked the idea of the cross.

So what is going wrong? I don't know but is there any option for you to take a step back. If she was mine I'd find a big field with other youngsters and throw her out for a year to eighteen months. When you are saying she has flat feet, a toe first landing, problems with her stifle... etc etc i just think "there is something we are missing here" and in all honesty it's not her genetics, as you know Criollos tend to be more upright in the feet.

I just feel, and I know its oh so easy to say, this filly needs managed differently (not better, just different) - vets will happily take your money but I am not sure micro managing her is going to sort your issues (but yes also, stifle heat - auto immune)

Does that make any sense?!

Thank you for your reply GW. It does make sense but it's not really an option I'm afraid. We have our own place and I'm the only horsy person in the family - everyone has made sacrifices for my hobby, and the last few months have been an expensive guilt trip. My plan for her return from rehab was a summer just being a horse with my two geldings, chilling, recovering mentally and physically - but the vet advice was the opposite. She strongly advised 1. Weight loss, restricting dry matter to 1.5% body weight and 2. Exercise, basically "Couch to 5K" (her words). Filly has stood around in a tiny pen for 5 months on ad lib forage and has fat tummy and scrawny back end. Vet wants me to exercise her 5/6 days a week, walk trot in hand, to "build up her back end.".

I started in towards the above but then had my trusted bodyworker out to see her, who threw up her hands in horror at vet advice on both counts and says the opposite. Ad lib forage, gentle exercise if I must, but she thinks likely mare has hind gut issues/ulcers after all of the investigations/GA/sedations/confinement...and this will be affecting hoof health and also making swinging through uncomfortable. She said the last thing I should do was restrict forage.
I wasn't planning to go into all this in this post - been feeling pretty shite all week as I've grappled with what to do for the best and feeling like I've done everything wrong. The whole hot scabby stifles thing has just been the icing on the cake really. I'm going to have a chat with my vet regarding a course of Omaprazole/sulcrufate and won't be scoping - I can't put her through it. I'm also thinking full bloods. Yes, maybe it's micro-managing, but if she HAS got something auto immune or something else, I'd rather know sooner than later. Honestly, I thought I'd be pretty safe with buying a 2 yr old, especially one with her breeding. But you are right, GW. We are definitely missing something, I've felt it in my gut as a little niggle since quite early on in my ownership of her.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Nothing useful to add apart from offering support as you do your best to manage your youngster's conditions. It's so draining trying to do the right thing whilst balancing the effects on others around you. There's always one more thing that crops up and needs sorting - I've had it with my now 12yo homebred who has had a lot of vet interventions.

I hope that she soon comes good and will go on to make the riding horse that you've hoped for.

 

[Landcruiser]

Nothing useful to add apart from offering support as you do your best to manage your youngster's conditions. It's so draining trying to do the right thing whilst balancing the effects on others around you. There's always one more thing that crops up and needs sorting - I've had it with my now 12yo homebred who has had a lot of vet interventions.

I hope that she soon comes good and will go on to make the riding horse that you've hoped for.

Thank you. There's a fantastic little TREC horse in there somewhere, if I can only find the key to sorting her discomfort.

 

[Landcruiser]

Update: She was scoped yesterday (no option if I want to claim on insurance), and has ulcers, as suspected. (grade 2) She's been started on Omaprazole and Sulcrufate and I can already see an improvement in her stance. I also had bloods taken, no results yet. I had a full set of foot Xrays done too - which showed very thin soles as expected. Ground parallel P3 in fronts, very slight NPA in hinds - again, as expected.
The vet had a look at the crustiness on the stifles but it has improved massively and we decided to just keep going with what I'm doing and not bother sending off a scrape. Vet agreed it's likely an auto-immune reaction to being stressed and run down and in pain with the ulcers - hopefully will resolve as the ulcers heal.
I'm hoping that resolving the ulcers will also help with the movement and hoof development. Meanwhile, she's booted with pads in front now it's dry enough to allow this, and I'm going to measure her for hinds too. Bless her. She was good as gold for the vet.

 

[Landcruiser]

Another update. The bloods taken in April showed an elevated CK level (635) , everything else fine. Vet thought it could be a muscle tweak or similar, so we retested after a month. CK was still about the same, just a few points less. Vet spoke to the lab, who said at that level they weren't overly concerned, especially as everything else was normal and mare much improved in herself after ulcer treatment. Having researched CK in the meantime, I asked them to run a selenium level test, because selenium deficiency had come up as a possible cause of elevated CK. And guess what? The vet called yesterday and she has selenium deficiency. I mean....honestly...my poor girl.

In one way I'm "pleased", because this feels like the missing piece of the jigsaw. Her subtle signs of just not wanting to move as much or as well as I'd expect..just not being quite happy in herself...signs that would be easy to miss or put down to laziness, but they've been niggling away at me, and here we are. My other two horses are showing no signs and are on the same supplement (Equimins), but her level is less than half what it should be. I've already started her on Trinity Alpha-selenium, kudos to them as I only spoke to them yesterday afternoon and it arrived in the post this morning. I'm cross with myself for not realising she wasn't getting enough - I hadn't realised just how important selenium is, and wasn't aware of the signs. I was giving Equimins Tip Top at full dose - but that only gives .3mg of Se, and the recommended level is between 1mg and 3mg depending where you look. I'm trying not to beat myself up about it, and at least now I'm aware I can do something about it.

Talk about a roller coaster. She's just had her 4th birthday...

 

[Landcruiser]

This also possibly explains the "rain scald" (which has completely resolved now). Selenium deficiency affects the immune system as well as muscles

SYMPTOMS OF SELENIUM DEFICIENCY​

Many horses with slight-to-moderate deficiencies are asymptomatic. The more severe the deficiency and the more intense the horse’s training, the more noticeable the symptoms.

Common symptoms include:

• Stiff gait
• Sore, painful muscles
• Poor performance
• Muscle spasms and/or trembling
• Tying up (nutritional myopathy/rhabdomyolysis)

 

[MereChristmas]

I’m not completely sure of the details but a friend’s land is dreadfully selenium deficient. All her horses except one mare were OK with a powdered supplement. One did not seem to use the powder properly and to keep her selenium count correct had to be injected annually.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Gosh, well done for getting the vet to check her selenium levels. I didn't realise that Se deficiency could cause that array of symptoms. It's always drummed into we horse horse owners not to accidentally supplement with too much Se when using multiple supplements/compound feeds.

Fingers firmly crossed that you are through the bad patch and that things will only improve from now on for you both.

 

[Landcruiser]

Another update a month after starting selenium supplement. Wow. I have a normal young horse. She's moving well and lots. She's back to being curious, (some would say nosey), engaged, active..behaving like a happy 4 year old. When I say "back to" I actually think she's been deficient since she came to me, because there was "something" right from the start that was oh so subtly not right.

Her hooves are changing too, really dramatically. I've really struggled to get them to grow at the correct angles rather than splat outwards and forwards. Her soles were found to be very thin. I'll add some photos to show just how dramatic the change is. Currently in need of a trim (which I am itching to do..) but I have asked my hoof pro (AKA "Hoof Geek") to trim them this time and she wants plenty to work with. The change reflects the resolution of her ulcers, as well as adding in boots and pads full time.

It's good to post a positive update. It's been a hell of a journey with my "blank canvas" 2 year old, but I feel that we are finally getting there

 

[Landcruiser]

Just look at the change in the growth angle!!

 

[Landcruiser]

Like I said above, DESPERATE for a trim!! But those heels are going to come right back and those long toes are going to be dramatically shortened. She's 24/7 in 4 boots and pads still but happy to walk without them - in them she tracks up, without them, short strides but doesn't hobble.

 

[Landcruiser]

LF, this crack has been persistent despite rolling it but stayed about the same size rather than growing - but I think the pro trim will see it MUCH reduced. I added this so you can see how cleverly the hoof has reinforced itself at the sole where the crack is. Zoom in - there's a nub of super hard sole like a blob of glue right where the crack meets the sole. I thought it was a stone when I first found it. Nope, just a hoof doing what they do.

 

[Red-1]

That is a huge change!

 

[ester]

Interesting thread and result! Didn’t see it previously but Trec horse keeps emerging now!

 

[w1bbler]

Fab results & interesting read.
I just wanted to add for anyone reading this in the future. It's easy to overdose selenium which can be fatal. Test before throwing lots of selenium into a horses diet, it's not one of those supplements to just throw in as an experiment. The difference between deficiency & excess is a narrow margin.

 

[Landcruiser]

Resurrecting this thread for the latest update. My vet has now bought a Ferrari . First a couple of pictures, because despite everything, she's ever so pretty...

 

[Landcruiser]

Since my last update here she has been backed (in May, at 5 yrs old) and been lightly hacked. The pic above is at her first ever fun ride a couple of weeks ago, which we did bitless and solo. It was...lively...but we got round in one piece in walk/trot (plus "rear" and "hand walk" and a bit of "cavorting in circles") despite the inconsideration of some riders who charged past when we were quite obviously struggling to contain ourselves .
She's done some winter trec, won her first and second in hand classes and came second in her first ever ridden class, only failing to score better and likely win because I haven't introduced ridden canter yet. So she's shaping up nicely and really seems to enjoy both being out and about, and obstacle work.

HOWEVER...life with her is never simple, and through the summer I was still struggling with her weak feet. She wore boots and pads for about 3 months full time, which improved her heels massively. Then it got too wet, so she wears them for hacking only. I noticed that she was tender footed out of boots, despite my horses all being on fairly restricted grazing. She had quite a lot of thrush too, despite my best efforts. She's previously been x rayed with thin soles, but these are also much improved. All reasons she'd be tender, but..
I have also found it very difficult to get weight off her. She's not fat or cresty, but chubbier than I'd like despite restrictions. So I had her tested for EMS, because I noticed the hollows over her eyes were filled in, and her hooves were warm. And naturally, she came back positive.

So now she's on Metformin, and in overnight on soaked hay. It's been a bit of a game changer, in that she's dropped 30 kg on the weight tape since starting it about 10 days ago. She's become much more active, trotting/cantering off down the track where previously she'd have picked her way. Her hooves are cool, where they were warm. She's moving more freely. She seems very happy in herself.

This mare is my absolute world, and I'll do what I need to do to manage her condition. EMS is not something I was planning on having to deal with, and I've had yet another steep learning curve..but seriously, she's worth it. She gives so much back.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pleased to hear that you’re getting her out and about, but that’s rather rubbish about the EMS being found at such a young age. Glad that she’s improving rapidly on the metformin.

Is EMS something that crops up in her breed?

 

[Landcruiser]

Pleased to hear that you’re getting her out and about, but that’s rather rubbish about the EMS being found at such a young age. Glad that she’s improving rapidly on the metformin.

Is EMS something that crops up in her breed?

No, just her

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I'm just looking at her overall posture I would look into thoracic sling exercises you need to get that core up and working, I would also question saddle fit that kind of posture results from a tight saddle in front.

I would check your saddle fit do lots of ground work as in lateral work pole work getting her to lift infront and getting her to stretch and work long and low.

I would also look at front hoof angles the toes look long to me and heels look high.

 

[Landcruiser]

I'm just looking at her overall posture I would look into thoracic sling exercises you need to get that core up and working, I would also question saddle fit that kind of posture results from a tight saddle in front.

I would check your saddle fit do lots of ground work as in lateral work pole work getting her to lift infront and getting her to stretch and work long and low.

I would also look at front hoof angles the toes look long to me and heels look high.

You are certainly right in that she needs to work on her core. She is quite bum high though, which does throw the eye. I have done tons and tons of groundwork inc lateral, and she's only been lightly worked under saddle since May so she still has a lot of building up to do. I have logs and tyres out on their track that they have to step over and pick through many times a day.
Saddle fit I am very happy with. She's in a Strada which was fitted by a Strada fitter, and she seems very comfortable and happy in it.

Hooves are an ongoing issue though. You are absolutely correct that the front angles are too shallow (hinds are fine, within normal limits and with good concavity). Front heels are not high but they are weak and tend to under run, and her toes shoot out in front. She's had so many different issues and they all show up in her hooves. She's only just grown out a long weak section of separation and flare caused by a long and persistent infected mud fever last winter. They are now much better than they were if you can believe it, and I have my very experienced pro trimmer (AKA Hoof Geek) coming out later today to do a trim and full consult regarding a way forward re hooves, management, and way forward with the new EMS diagnosis.

 

[SEL]

Couldn't work out if she was bum high or it was the photo!

Your journey with selenium is interesting- have you kept testing ?

 

[Landcruiser]

Couldn't work out if she was bum high or it was the photo!

Your journey with selenium is interesting- have you kept testing ?

I retested at the same time as she was tested for EMS (tested everything I could think of!) - she's bang in the middle of the range now, so at least I know I have that right
Also - her sister is 2 inches bum high age 10...so I think I might be stuck with a kangaroo.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

You are certainly right in that she needs to work on her core. She is quite bum high though, which does throw the eye. I have done tons and tons of groundwork inc lateral, and she's only been lightly worked under saddle since May so she still has a lot of building up to do. I have logs and tyres out on their track that they have to step over and pick through many times a day.
Saddle fit I am very happy with. She's in a Strada which was fitted by a Strada fitter, and she seems very comfortable and happy in it.

Hooves are an ongoing issue though. You are absolutely correct that the front angles are too shallow (hinds are fine, within normal limits and with good concavity). Front heels are not high but they are weak and tend to under run, and her toes shoot out in front. She's had so many different issues and they all show up in her hooves. She's only just grown out a long weak section of separation and flare caused by a long and persistent infected mud fever last winter. They are now much better than they were if you can believe it, and I have my very experienced pro trimmer (AKA Hoof Geek) coming out later today to do a trim and full consult regarding a way forward re hooves, management, and way forward with the new EMS diagnosis.

I did mean to say about being bum high and growing

I'm glad you are aware of everything I sort of had a similar issue Arabi has always had what a call a lazy core, his I think started from a too tight saddle and it took me a long time to put all that right, his 20 now and is a bit saggy as I don't do as much with him now but his actually looking better sound wise so I'm going to up my groundwork with him.

It's so hard because things seem to go wrong so quick yet take so long to correct with horses.

There is a few good videos on you tube for thoracic sling exercises I use them on my horses they definitely help.

She is a lovely horse love her colour