Random bronking when mounting

[baybertha]

Just wanted people’s experiences/advice on this. My horse 99% of the time is completely fine to get on, very calm etc. However, once every few months when I mount he will go completely crazy - bronking, bucking - impossible for anyone to sit and will continue to bronc even once I’ve fallen off.

He is very laid back normally, will never do anything naughty, so this behaviour is completely out of character for him. It is like a switch has been triggered when it happens and he’s a completely different horse.

We have had everything checked: saddles, teeth, chiropractor etc. Investigations by the vets...thought it could be KS, but back x-rays all fine.

Although last year we scoped him to find he had very bad gastric ulcers. These were then treated and we thought we solved the problem as he did not have a broncing episode for nearly a year. However, today he sadly started doing it when I got on, despite having had a clear scope for ulcers a few weeks ago, showing that the ulcers are not the root of this problem.

Have completely run out of ideas for what could be causing it. It is just so unlike him that there must be something pain related triggering it. It has put me in hospital before and it’s getting too dangerous to carry on if we don’t find the cause (he has also done it once in the stable when he was tacked up). Such a talented horse otherwise, don’t want him to be wasted. TIA

 

[Henry02]

It would help if you can tell us exactly what the vet has investigated. also is he insured, and how much left have you got to spend.

my first few port of calls would probably be:

1. Put him on a really good hind gut supplement, such as succeed. He may or may not have hind gut ulcers, but as a general rule of thumb it doesn’t do them any harm. Probably not the main cause, but could well be contributing to the issue.

2. Get a vet who specialises in equine dentistry to sedate him and have a really good look inside his mouth. Someone like the equine dental clinic, not the local vet.

3. What type of bodywork has he had before? If a physio try an oesto/chiro. I’d also be in contact with Rob Jackson (horseback vet), as he seems to find issues others don’t. It can take a while for him to come out to you; in the meantime I’d proceed with alternative body worker.

4. The saddle. Presumably you have it checked and fitted on a regular basis. Try a different saddler. If they say it fits ask them to take it away and strip it down and check the tree isn’t broken/any nails sticking out of it.

5. PSSM. I’m no expert on it, but you can get a type 1 hair test for circa £35. Potentially worth it.

6. Diet. You could put him on a grass/forage only diet, and look at getting your grazing analysed. If the grazing has a bag imbalance of minerals it could be contributing to the issue.

7. animal communicator. The ones I’ve used before have been very helpful and generally accurate when it comes to pinpointing an area of pain. PM for my recommendations if required.

8. Thermal imaging. I have used this sucessfully on a couple of horses to help pinpoint problematic areas. Have used in conjunction with animal communicator, both pointing at the same areas (without being in contact with each other before any says so).

however which course of action you go down depends on your timescale, how much money you have to spend, and what your previous investigations have been.

without knowing the answer to these, I’d suggest keeping the horse in some form of work. (Will help keep the problem in the surface so the vet can see it, ie if he has a very sore back a couple of weeks rest it the field may help to ease it, and the problem may not get picked up as easily as it could do.)

I’d be going for the options of getting grazing analysed, whilst putting him on the most simple diet possible, including a digestive supplement.

PSSM test as it’s easy and cheap.

See what animal communicator has to say.

these are the options that involve the most minimal time input (ie not having to book daytime appointments and a days holiday from work).

 

[Red-1]

I like Henry's answer, in particular taking the addle to be stripped down, but I would also use a different numnah.

I too would keep in work while investigating, but not ridden work, I would lunge.

I did read an article on here recently, about a horse with no ulcers who had a mass in the stomach, so I would consider another scope asap to see what is going on rather than relying on everything being OK a month ago.

Some horses who can be cold backed never get a solution, but can still stay in happy work if always lunged before mounting. I know of one Burghley completion who needed this always, but once lunged was apparently comfortable and extremely able!

Sometimes I think these symptoms can be caused by the girth rather than the saddle. I would see if the girth lies vertical, away from the elbow, uniform pressure front to back and is smooth. Maybe try a dead sheep.

I had one horse who had a damaged nerve near the girth. She ended up a non ridden horse due to this. It would come and go, but occasionally, when the girth area was pressed, she would have a reaction whereby she would tense and freeze, she lost the sight in her eye, if pressured she would actually fall to the floor. Although yours is bucking rather than falling, I guess horses have different reactions, so I would bear this in mind. A friend was injured with a similar thing around 30 years after mine, so it is obviously a 'thing'.

I think I would also ask the vet to run bloods, to make sure kidneys, liver etc are functioning correctly. We sit near the organs, so if one is diseased, that could cause a violent reaction.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

2 excellent answers above, my first thought was 'hind gut ulcers?' then 'broken tree?'. I have used an animal communicator who was very accurate, so would probably go down that route, or thermal imaging in your position because otherwise you could spend a fortune just stabbing in the dark. I wouldn't try to ride until you have some answers.

 

[ihatework]

I had one just like this and never got to the bottom of it. Was seen by the best at Newmarket.

Only pattern I could find was it seemed to be timed around grass flush, he did it every year in late April/early May. Once he did it in August but less intense and it was at an event and I was late and girthed up quick and hopped on (then was promptly bucked off).

I’m left quite crippled by that horse. I moved him on with full disclosure in the end. He went into hunt service.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s will be pain related the ulcer tell you that .
Extremely difficult to deal with.
Does Lunging before getting on help?
I would stop riding it getting damaged is horrible and it can impair the rest of your life .
It’s really down to how much you want to spend looking for an answer .

 

[southerncomfort]

Excellent ideas above.

One other thing to chuck in to the mix is an intermittently trapped nerve somewhere. The pain from a trapped nerve is like an electric shock!

Not sure how a trapped nerve is diagnosed though.

 

[Michen]

It’s will be pain related the ulcer tell you that .
Extremely difficult to deal with.
Does Lunging before getting on help?
I would stop riding it getting damaged is horrible and it can impair the rest of your life .
It’s really down to how much you want to spend looking for an answer .

Though he has scoped clear of ulcers So would suggest an underlying pain issue is unlikely? Saddle I wonder..

As for an animal communicator- I’m sure the money would be better spent on a bloody good vet!

 

[jfharris0307]

Just wanted people’s experiences/advice on this. My horse 99% of the time is completely fine to get on, very calm etc. However, once every few months when I mount he will go completely crazy - bronking, bucking - impossible for anyone to sit and will continue to bronc even once I’ve fallen off.

He is very laid back normally, will never do anything naughty, so this behaviour is completely out of character for him. It is like a switch has been triggered when it happens and he’s a completely different horse.

We have had everything checked: saddles, teeth, chiropractor etc. Investigations by the vets...thought it could be KS, but back x-rays all fine.

Although last year we scoped him to find he had very bad gastric ulcers. These were then treated and we thought we solved the problem as he did not have a broncing episode for nearly a year. However, today he sadly started doing it when I got on, despite having had a clear scope for ulcers a few weeks ago, showing that the ulcers are not the root of this problem.

Have completely run out of ideas for what could be causing it. It is just so unlike him that there must be something pain related triggering it. It has put me in hospital before and it’s getting too dangerous to carry on if we don’t find the cause (he has also done it once in the stable when he was tacked up). Such a talented horse otherwise, don’t want him to be wasted. TIA

Hello. I appreciate this is obviously a good few years since your original post but I'm wondering what the outcome was? I have a very large 5 year old warmblood and your description above of your horse could have been written about him. Every so often, very violent bronking which normally gets me off just as I get on him (this time has broken my hand). Quite often very tense when getting on but within less than a minute, relaxed and we have a lovely hack or schooling session. He's had neck and back x-rays, full body bone scan, 12 week field rest, 11 week in hand rehab, had his SI medicated, course of steroids and seemed to be turning a corner. Until he launched me again on Friday. I'm considering getting him scoped for ulcers but vet doesn't think he's likely to have them. We've been going through an ever more expensive, and dangerous, cycle for the last 18 months and he's had me off 6 times, plus my yard owner once. We've ruled out quite a few things and I just don't know what to do next. Really hoping your story worked out well?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would definitely scope it's relatively cheap and because his reactions are so strong I think it would be totally worth it.

I would also do a full lameness work up if you haven't already, purely because si joint pain is often caused by some sort of hind leg discomfort mainly hock or suspensory issues.

 

[jfharris0307]

I would definitely scope it's relatively cheap and because his reactions are so strong I think it would be totally worth it.

I would also do a full lameness work up if you haven't already, purely because si joint pain is often caused by some sort of hind leg discomfort mainly hock or suspensory issues.

Thank you, scoping is definitely the next thing on the list. He's had full lameness workup and the vets don't think there is anything wrong with his legs (bone scan clear) and we've ruled out kissing spine or anything else skeletal, really. It's strange because when he has the bronking episode, he can look really lame behind, both legs, but trotting him up day after and completely sound. It's really intermittent. My vet wonders about it being a bit like a trapped nerve but god knows what, if anything, can be done for that!?

 

[BBP]

I think bone scan and X-ray will only show skeletal abnormalities? Soft tissue pain could remain undetected if has not yet caused remodelling of the bone it attaches to. Did they ultrasound his back or rectally scan the underside of the sacroiliac/pelvis? Mine had perfect neck and back X-rays but ultrasound showed chronic ligament damage to supra and interspinatous ligaments and in SI region. My sisters mare had visibly ok spinal X-rays but a couple of processes a little close, however X-ray is done under sedation with head lowered, once her head is raised I believe the processes would impinge at that point (so say for example if usually head is neutral, horse is fine, but when it is tense and lifts head when mounting the processes begin to impinge on each other and cause pain)?

 

[jfharris0307]

I think bone scan and X-ray will only show skeletal abnormalities? Soft tissue pain could remain undetected if has not yet caused remodelling of the bone it attaches to. Did they ultrasound his back or rectally scan the underside of the sacroiliac/pelvis? Mine had perfect neck and back X-rays but ultrasound showed chronic ligament damage to supra and interspinatous ligaments and in SI region. My sisters mare had visibly ok spinal X-rays but a couple of processes a little close, however X-ray is done under sedation with head lowered, once her head is raised I believe the processes would impinge at that point (so say for example if usually head is neutral, horse is fine, but when it is tense and lifts head when mounting the processes begin to impinge on each other and cause pain)?

No they haven't done ultrasounds. What were the outcomes for both those horses? The situation with your sister's mare could very easily be him - again couple of vertebrae in the neck a little close. Was there any cure/treatment?

 

[BBP]

No they haven't done ultrasounds. What were the outcomes for both those horses? The situation with your sister's mare could very easily be him - again couple of vertebrae in the neck a little close. Was there any cure/treatment?

The mare was only xrayed last week so she is having a course of shockwave and intensive in hand rehab, massage, red light and osteopathy to improve her posture. She isn’t a broncer but has been getting more and more anxious, fine when you can get her to work low but if you let her head come up and back hollow it seems to trigger her, which makes sense.

My horse with the ultrasounds I retired straight away as his ligament damage seemed to be linked to his hypermobility and I didn’t want to add my own weight to his suspensories or back.

 

[jfharris0307]

The mare was only xrayed last week so she is having a course of shockwave and intensive in hand rehab, massage, red light and osteopathy to improve her posture. She isn’t a broncer but has been getting more and more anxious, fine when you can get her to work low but if you let her head come up and back hollow it seems to trigger her, which makes sense.

My horse with the ultrasounds I retired straight away as his ligament damage seemed to be linked to his hypermobility and I didn’t want to add my own weight to his suspensories or back.

Ok thank you. I suppose that's the dilemma I'm at, at the moment. Don't want to spend even more money (I'm thousands of pounds in already) just to be left with the same situation. He's 17hh2, 5 years old and I don't have my own land so retiring him, when he's barely done anything, isn't an option I'm prepared to fund. The info about the mare is really interesting though - I can certainly see similarities. Will talk to my vet about that. Thank you, good luck with the mare

 

[sbloom]

Could well be nerve pain, something that is poorly understood in humans let alone horses, try Yasmin Stuart, Vet Physio, she travels all over, if she can't get to you she may have a colleague who can. She'll look at your horse overall, very holistic.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Could well be nerve pain, something that is poorly understood in humans let alone horses, try Yasmin Stuart, Vet Physio, she travels all over, if she can't get to you she may have a colleague who can. She'll look at your horse overall, very holistic.

Can highly recommend Yasmin she has treated my horses and one of mine has nerve damage.

 

[alexomahony]

Sky does this on the odd occassion... it's only ever when he's excited and gets tense about something (getting on to go hunting, or at an event), usually only when I get on in a field with grass under foot and often at an even when I use a different numnah to what he's used too.

He has never done it at home, or on concrete/gravel (thank god!)

He's had everything checked numerous times and they've never found anything to suggest it's pain related. I use a Protechmasta numnah now and always put his saddle on first so if he is tense, the Protechmasta technology works whatever magic it appears to work before I get on. If on grass, I walk him around in hand for a while or lunge first where possible and if hunting I just prey for my life and get trotting ASAP!

The above answers are really good - we went down the nerve damage route, had thrermal imaging, scoping, x-rays, the lot and I fully believe you must always rule out pain. It is less frequent the more I do something and he gets settled into a regular job so I do put it down to excitement and not being sure how to direct the energy he's built while getting ready/tacked up etc

Hope you get tot the bottom of why yours does it! x

 

[jfharris0307]

Sky does this on the odd occassion... it's only ever when he's excited and gets tense about something (getting on to go hunting, or at an event), usually only when I get on in a field with grass under foot and often at an even when I use a different numnah to what he's used too.

He has never done it at home, or on concrete/gravel (thank god!)

He's had everything checked numerous times and they've never found anything to suggest it's pain related. I use a Protechmasta numnah now and always put his saddle on first so if he is tense, the Protechmasta technology works whatever magic it appears to work before I get on. If on grass, I walk him around in hand for a while or lunge first where possible and if hunting I just prey for my life and get trotting ASAP!

The above answers are really good - we went down the nerve damage route, had thrermal imaging, scoping, x-rays, the lot and I fully believe you must always rule out pain. It is less frequent the more I do something and he gets settled into a regular job so I do put it down to excitement and not being sure how to direct the energy he's built while getting ready/tacked up etc

Hope you get tot the bottom of why yours does it! x

Thank you. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to make any difference whether I lunge him and/or use the massage pad prior to riding him. I genuinely don't think it's excitement with my lad, sadly, convinced it's pain. Ive just booked him in to take him back to Rainbow vets on 22nd August so will see what other options, if any, can be considered

 

[alexomahony]

Thank you. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to make any difference whether I lunge him and/or use the massage pad prior to riding him. I genuinely don't think it's excitement with my lad, sadly, convinced it's pain. Ive just booked him in to take him back to Rainbow vets on 22nd August so will see what other options, if any, can be considered

Fingers crossed - I use Rainbow too and they've been really helpful.

I was really convinved mine was pain.... and I'm still not 100% sure it isn't. I fully believe we should blame any 'bad behaviour' as pain until absolutely 100% ruled out. Sky doesn't get told off for what he does. It could still be nerve damage, but like others have said - it's really hard to pin point and it's so random. It could also be muscle pain/cramp from being tense and excited... but I'm not sure what I could do next to settle this. Once he's moving he is fine - if you're still on past 3 steps of walk, youre good to go! So if it is pain, it's extreamley short and sharp. It's a funny one - the more I look into it and speak to people about it, the less sense it makes haha

I hope you manage to get to the bottom of your horses behaviour. If it happens often, in all situations, I'd 100% believe it's pain related x

 

[jfharris0307]

Yeah that does sound more like mine - if you survive the first three steps, you're ok. But mega violent when it does happen. And we've never really got going - we get to a certain point in his schooling/breaking, he decks me and we go back to vets/chiropractor/physio and either time off or in hand rehab and start again. I've been round this same cycle 4 times already - this feels like the fifth time of being back at the point where I have a horse I can't/don't particularly want to get on. But he's so lovely, and is so spot on in every other way, just really sad/frustrating. I just really hope there's a way of mending him

 

[sbloom]

Nerves pain/firing is different to nerve damage, the former is temporary and usually fixed with a combo of bodywork and groundwork, the latter is permanent. Many sudden and inconsistent reactions may be down to nerve pain. Thoracic outlet syndrome, for example, in humans has increasingly been fixed by shaving the collarbone whereas practitioners who focus on this help the human (horse) by releasing the area instead. Vets are unlikely to be working through this lens, same as doctors, even the specialists. Hence the recommendation of Yasmin.

 

[jfharris0307]

Nerves pain/firing is different to nerve damage, the former is temporary and usually fixed with a combo of bodywork and groundwork, the latter is permanent. Many sudden and inconsistent reactions may be down to nerve pain. Thoracic outlet syndrome, for example, in humans has increasingly been fixed by shaving the collarbone whereas practitioners who focus on this help the human (horse) by releasing the area instead. Vets are unlikely to be working through this lens, same as doctors, even the specialists. Hence the recommendation of Yasmin.

Thank you, I will see if I can have a chat with her to see if she thinks she can help. She's a long way from me. I live up in Cumbria and already have two excellent vets, a top mctimony chiropractor, a superb vet physio and a remedial farrier working with me. From an external manipulation perspective, he seems absolutely great - physio came a few weeks ago and he had a tiny bit of reaction in one spot under his saddle but she released it in seconds and said it was absolutely nothing to worry about. He lunged yesterday with loose side reins on and looked magnificent. I'm prepared to give anything a try but also just want to hear how some of these horses with similar issues faired - if the outcome is they can't be ridden, then that would be useful to know before I start chasing any more wild geese.

 

[sbloom]

She travels, if she can't get to you there is someone else nearer you but I'd leave it to her to work out if they could help you. Either of them would bring a different perspective, great teams can sometimes still not have the lens that will help you. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[jfharris0307]

She travels, if she can't get to you there is someone else nearer you but I'd leave it to her to work out if they could help you. Either of them would bring a different perspective, great teams can sometimes still not have the lens that will help you. Good luck whatever you decide.

Thank you