Random Musing

[dianchi]

Just a random musing following another post.

If your horse has never had it does that mean that its ok that it doesn't?

In this instance it was a pro horse that has been on a pro yard all its life and didn't miss turnout as it hadn't it- posters view.

Now I always found it odd that people don't drive or want to drive, until someone pointed that as they hadn't even driven they didn't miss it.
In which case the theory would stand up.

However my friends PRE gelding had never had turnout in groups but clearly longs for company whilst turned out now- is that just because he has seen it? He defiantly has never had it, so how can he miss it if he hasn't had it?

Equally people who say horse is wasted with them as they wont compete it to high level- if the horse hasn't done it, they don't know they are missing out?

Just to be clear this isn't a dig at anyone just a random musing.

Any thoughts?

 

[Bernster]

I'll chuck my hat into the ring on this one. The one I struggle with is the idea of a horse being wasted and needing to go to a competitive home. I do understand that, and the idea of taking a horse to its full potential or keeping it happy in work, but I'm not sure the horse is sitting there in it's stable (uhm, ok, but you know what I mean) thinking, I wish I was out doing GP dressage/1.50s etc.

My friend recently took her horse to a dressage clinic and they basically said, that horse is wasted on you and he should be with a professional rider. Horse is perfectly happy, has a lovely life, has interesting work but yes he probably won't go to the top with his owner, but I don't think he or she minds that at all !

 

[Templebar]

I discussed this philosophy with a lecturer funnily enough and believe it.

Your friend with the PRE probably either wants to experience it as he has seen others do it, or its just a instinct.

But when i was discussing it with the lecturer we were discussing chickens and housed cows and how even if you open the doors they wont go outside but i firmly believe if they can see others going out then they are more likely to want to try it. I have since then been involved in a study this last summer working with dairy cows studying this theory.

My young horse is opposite has turnout all her life but clearly would prefer to be in, shown when she needed box rest for a foot abscess last Jan.

Edited to say: as for working i think if they haven't been there then they dont miss it. A horse who has never left home wont yearn to go to a show as they dont know what goes on, they live for the moment and as long as they are fed, watered and sheltered then they are content.

 

[chorro]

I often think that when people say a horse is wasted on them. If it is healthy and happy and doing what you want it to do how is that wasted.
Just because it has the potential to go to the top doesn't mean it will.
I think just enjoy your horse

 

[Nessa4]

Would have thought that the difference would be whether something was learned behaviour or something that is natural (in the driving analogy, a person who has never learnt to drive won.t miss it, but a child who never gets to play with others will miss contact with others. Horses are naturally herd animals, so may feel 'something is missing' if they have no company. I would have thought that the same applies to turnout TBH, although it may be that they learn to do without. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

 

[Penumbra]

I think it's silly to say just because an animal has never had something it doesn't miss it.

Animals often have intrinsic drives to do certain things. A good example is large carnivores in zoos. They will often pace around their enclosure, even if their welfare seems quite good, and theoretically the animal has everything it needs. However, in the wild, animals such as tigers and polar bears have to travel long distances to find food, and so they have an in-built desire to move around and search for food. It's not learnt behaviour, it's something instinctive that causes them to pace.

Equally, for a horse, being isolated from a herd could be dangerous in the wild. Therefore, if they are sometimes exposed to other horses, or can see them but not get to them whilst turned out, this could make them feel vulnerable, and be a source of stress. I'm not saying that some horses aren't perfectly happy turned out alone, but I think, in general, they usually have a desire to be part of a group. For some horses, e.g. more anxious ones, this desire may be stronger than others.

Most animals don't have the mental/cognitive capacities to think through cause and effect in the same way humans do. Also, most animals have instinctive behaviours they don't have to learn. Herd behaviour is probably instinctive for horses, as if it was something foals had to learn through experience, a lot of foals would probably die due to predation. Therefore, I don't think it's something they have to experience in order to "want"- although I don't think they think about it in the same way a deprived human would.

I'm sure some horses can be kept alone, or with no turn out happily. However, I would say this is probably more due to personality differences, rather than because "it's all they've ever known". I don't think you can assume every horse would cope with being kept in these ways.

ETA (due to cross posts): This obviously doesn't apply to horses "needing to compete". I don't think any horse has an instinctive desire to compete or be ridden!

 

[dianchi]

I think it's silly to say just because an animal has never had something it doesn't miss it.

Animals often have intrinsic drives to do certain things. A good example is large carnivores in zoos. They will often pace around their enclosure, even if their welfare seems quite good, and theoretically the animal has everything it needs. However, in the wild, animals such as tigers and polar bears have to travel long distances to find food, and so they have an in-built desire to move around and search for food. It's not learnt behaviour, it's something instinctive that causes them to pace.

Equally, for a horse, being isolated from a herd could be dangerous in the wild. Therefore, if they are sometimes exposed to other horses, or can see them but not get to them whilst turned out, this could make them feel vulnerable, and be a source of stress. I'm not saying that some horses aren't perfectly happy turned out alone, but I think, in general, they usually have a desire to be part of a group. For some horses, e.g. more anxious ones, this desire may be stronger than others.

Most animals don't have the mental/cognitive capacities to think through cause and effect in the same way humans do. Also, most animals have instinctive behaviours they don't have to learn. Herd behaviour is probably instinctive for horses, as if it was something foals had to learn through experience, a lot of foals would probably die due to predation. Therefore, I don't think it's something they have to experience in order to "want"- although I don't think they think about it in the same way a deprived human would.

I'm sure some horses can be kept alone, or with no turn out happily. However, I would say this is probably more due to personality differences, rather than because "it's all they've ever known". I don't think you can assume every horse would cope with being kept in these ways.

ETA (due to cross posts): This obviously doesn't apply to horses "needing to compete". I don't think any horse has an instinctive desire to compete or be ridden!

Very interesting point!

I always have viewed pacing animals as a stress signal in Zoo's- although some just cant help it.
And yes my mare is a loner and whilst she grazes away from her two companion she is looking for them on the way to the field.

So do horses miss what they have had???
In summer my girl is out 24/7 but seems more than happy to stable at night- although is always ready to go out next morning.

 

[Auslander]

I think horses are far more adaptable than we give them credit for. Alf was always in a competition yard environment, competed himself at a very high level, worked every day, and was stabled with a couple of hours turnout. He now lives out 24/7, and is currently doing no work at all - and he's perfectly happy with his lifestyle.
My new livery was really worried about her mare being out 24/7, as she was sure she preferred coming in at night. She came to see her three days after she arrived, and said "Arggh - she's waiting at the gate to come in - I feel awful". I went out and fed them, and as soon as they'd finished, they all went straight back to the end field - with the mare leading the way!

 

[Penumbra]

Very interesting point!

I always have viewed pacing animals as a stress signal in Zoo's- although some just cant help it.
And yes my mare is a loner and whilst she grazes away from her two companion she is looking for them on the way to the field.

So do horses miss what they have had???
In summer my girl is out 24/7 but seems more than happy to stable at night- although is always ready to go out next morning.

Pacing in zoos can also be an indicator of poor welfare/stress. However, some species are much more likely to pace (e.g. big carnivores) whereas other species will display different behaviour. Giraffes, for example, will lick walls, or do other unusual oral behaviours, and primates may self harm or rock or display other abnormal behaviour. So, yes, it is a stress response, but not all species share the same inate stress responses.

I think horses can cope with limited turnout, so long as they have forage and visible companions, but if you tried to keep a tiger in a space similar to a horse's stable for a sustained amount of time, it probably wouldn't cope at all.

These aren't concious thoughts, though. The animal will probably feel distressed, but they won't conciously think about why they are distressed.

Obviously all of this is speculation to an extent, as we can't ask animals how they think and we don't even know how the human brain works fully. However, research is done into this side of animal behaviour to try and improve welfare of captive/domestic animals.

 

[Cortez]

I don't think any horse worries that it's not out there fulfilling its' potential - no horse wakes up in the morning "wanting" to do Grand Prix or jump internationally. Probably many horses wish their riders were more capable 'though..........

Most horses wishes are met with a full belly, room to roam and an equine friend.

 

[Pigeon]

It is in a horse's nature to be a social roaming animal - Same way a foal will try and stand up straight away, it's not something it has learnt, it is just innate because it's a flight animal and instinct tells it it needs to be able to run.

I think horses do miss what they have never had. Would it be okay to keep a tiger born in captivity alone in a small cage because it had never known anything else? Do you think this would create a mentally healthy animal?

 

[ridefast]

I wasn't particularly bothered about driving before I could drive, but I couldn't cope not being able to drive now.
BUT I think in the case of horses and turnout that's different, a horse can survive without turnout but it's part of a horses nature. If you keep a bird caged all it's life does that mean it doesn't want to fly? A horse can go it's whole life without a rug and not miss it, because it doesn't NEED a rug. But to roam in a herd, that's what a horse evolved to do. I would hate to deprive any horse of that completely

 

[AdorableAlice]

I think people under estimate the need of routines for some horses. We do under estimate how adaptable the horse is but changing an ingrained routine takes time, thought and often stresses the horse, which in turn might make us think the horse does or does not like something or misses/wants something.

The horse I bought 10 years ago was never turned out, he was 10 years old and had been a stallion until he was 8. His routine was horse walker, lunge pen, ridden schooling everyday. No turn out no hacking. He was kept in a 10 x 10 box (he is 17.2) on a very well known dressage yard. He competed within the complex.

Coming to me entailed a massive change in routine and he appeared not to like being turned out and 'missed' being in his stable. His new stable on my yard was 16 x 16 but he never used it all. He parked in the corner and used a small area only. It took a very long time to adapt him to his new lifestyle and 'break' the ingrained routine. His behaviour was so extreme I very nearly sent him back.

Ten years on and he has been the best horse I have ever had. I like to think he 'misses' competing and shows that by neighing at the box when it leaves the yard. He is retired now and lives out with access to his own enormous field shelter which he uses all the time. We know when it is about to rain because he toddles off and parks himself undercover - in the corner. Is that because he misses his tiny prison cell that he lived in for years ? If I shut him in the field shelter he goes bonkers and wants out. Adaptable they might be, but they are also very complex creatures.

 

[doriangrey]

I wasn't particularly bothered about driving before I could drive, but I couldn't cope not being able to drive now.
BUT I think in the case of horses and turnout that's different, a horse can survive without turnout but it's part of a horses nature. If you keep a bird caged all it's life does that mean it doesn't want to fly? A horse can go it's whole life without a rug and not miss it, because it doesn't NEED a rug. But to roam in a herd, that's what a horse evolved to do. I would hate to deprive any horse of that completely

Not sure about roaming, surely roaming is just dictated by the availability of food and water?

 

[Pigeon]

AA - that could be a behavioural stereotype. I read something about a bear that had been kept in a tiny cage, and it was moved to a zoo that could house it more appropriately. When they put it in the new enclosure, it started pacing the exact dimensions of it's old cage, and even as years went by would resort to that if it was stressed.

Not sure about roaming, surely roaming is just dictated by the availability of food and water?

Sort of, the thing is, a horse has physically evolved to roam, so its digestive system etc relies on constant movement to function properly.

 

[MagicMelon]

I think a horse longing for company is an inate feeling they have, because that's what they're designed for (to have company and to be sociable). So basic needs I think a horse DOES instinctively yearn for even though it may never have had that certain thing. However I think that a horse doesn't care less if its being wasted not competing at a certain level or anything along those lines.

 

[doriangrey]

I believe they evolved to roam to look for available forage, but I don't think that not roaming has an impact on the digestive system as a whole - how do horses cope of box rest for example?

 

[Love]

Not read all replies so sorry if this has been said before but..

In a nutshell just because they don't miss it doesn't mean they won't benefit from it!

 

[Pigeon]

I believe they evolved to roam to look for available forage, but I don't think that not roaming has an impact on the digestive system as a whole - how do horses cope of box rest for example?

They often don't! All sorts of issues with colic, azoturia, legs filling with fluid, COPD, arthritic changes and so on.

I had a horse with very mild arthritis in his hocks, and he received a kick in the field and so had to be on 6 months box rest. The kick healed fine but his arthritis developed into spavins as a direct result of lack of movement, and he never came sound. I was young and naive at the time and did what I was told - if the situation arose again there is no way I would put a horse through that!

 

[finngle]

My opinion is that in the wild horses live in herds, they are social animals, this helps build their social skills and can shape their behaviour. Therefore the horse that longs for company is living against their natural behaviour.
The horse that "doesnt miss turnout" well is hes been in all his life that would be all he's ever known however he may be more prone to undesirable behaviours such as box walking, cribbing and may lack the social skills he would naturally gain in a herd environment.
My opinion is mainly based on scientific research and Ill be the first to point out my horse goes against this; in winter he just doesn't want to go out in yucky weather he'd happily stay in and munch hay than be out with his buddies and in the summer I can catch him to ride! He cant touch any other horses from his stable but can see others. So there are certainly exceptions!!

 

[wench]

I bet I'm not the only one on here with this scenario.

Horse hadn't been ridden for a few weeks for something or other, was still out in field in day and stable at night.

Brought him in one Saturday during day to groom, or something similar. A ride going out then went past the stable, and I could tell that he wanted to go out for a ride with them.

This horse was not normally bothered by horses going past him in a stable.

 

[finngle]

I bet I'm not the only one on here with this scenario.

Horse hadn't been ridden for a few weeks for something or other, was still out in field in day and stable at night.

Brought him in one Saturday during day to groom, or something similar. A ride going out then went past the stable, and I could tell that he wanted to go out for a ride with them.

This horse was not normally bothered by horses going past him in a stable.

Yep! My horse once squealed and got himself wound up at the sight of a lunge line after a few months off. He loves his work and if given any length of time off the first ride is always the best!

 

[doriangrey]

They often don't! All sorts of issues with colic, azoturia, legs filling with fluid, COPD, arthritic changes and so on.

I had a horse with very mild arthritis in his hocks, and he received a kick in the field and so had to be on 6 months box rest. The kick healed fine but his arthritis developed into spavins as a direct result of lack of movement, and he never came sound. I was young and naive at the time and did what I was told - if the situation arose again there is no way I would put a horse through that!

I believe it's better that we allow our horses to be as much as possible as nature intended them to be, but that we also take into account their individual needs. It's obvious by this thread that some horses want to live out and some prefer their creature comforts, some like company some are loners. I've never had to put a horse on box rest (thank God), but I don't think they have to roam to have a functioning gut! I'm being a bit pedantic anyway, sorry about your horse. As long as we do the best we can with what we have what else can we do? Let's face it, it's not like every free-roaming equine in the world has as near a good life as domesticated ones. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember) that when animals/mammals have near enough the basic needs (food/water/shelter) then that is when they develop their social skills more and play more.

 

[Pigeon]

Maybe not roam, but they do have to move on and off all day to have a healthily functioning gut!

I agree, the thing is, people don't seem to realise that a lack of socialisation and confinement is undeniably bad for a horse. Maybe unavoidable, maybe more convenient, maybe the horse accepts it, but there is no denying that it is unhealthy, and it has been proven time and time again.

 

[doriangrey]

Maybe not roam, but they do have to move on and off all day to have a healthily functioning gut!

Lol, don't we all

 

[JustMeThen]

I'll chuck my hat into the ring on this one. The one I struggle with is the idea of a horse being wasted and needing to go to a competitive home. I do understand that, and the idea of taking a horse to its full potential or keeping it happy in work, but I'm not sure the horse is sitting there in it's stable (uhm, ok, but you know what I mean) thinking, I wish I was out doing GP dressage/1.50s etc.

My friend recently took her horse to a dressage clinic and they basically said, that horse is wasted on you and he should be with a professional rider. Horse is perfectly happy, has a lovely life, has interesting work but yes he probably won't go to the top with his owner, but I don't think he or she minds that at all !

I agree, I think if a horse is happy, healthy and well looked-after, and it and the rider are happy jumping .65, why does it matter if it 'should' be jumping 1.40s? The horse doesn't care!
On turnout though, I think surely that's a basic instinctive thing?

 

[Pigeon]

Lol, don't we all

Precisely

 

[amandap]

It is in a horse's nature to be a social roaming animal - Same way a foal will try and stand up straight away, it's not something it has learnt, it is just innate because it's a flight animal and instinct tells it it needs to be able to run.

I think horses do miss what they have never had. Would it be okay to keep a tiger born in captivity alone in a small cage because it had never known anything else? Do you think this would create a mentally healthy animal?

Yes, perhaps the driving comparison is not appropriate...

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Pacing in zoos can also be an indicator of poor welfare/stress. However, some species are much more likely to pace (e.g. big carnivores) whereas other species will display different behaviour. Giraffes, for example, will lick walls, or do other unusual oral behaviours, and primates may self harm or rock or display other abnormal behaviour. So, yes, it is a stress response, but not all species share the same inate stress responses.

Does anyone else see a parallel between rocking side to side not only in chimps, but the awful pictures of the Romanian orphans kept in their cots from a few years ago. Plus how far removed from this behaviour is weaving? I'd say it's the same thing.

 

[amandap]

Does anyone else see a parallel between rocking side to side not only in chimps, but the awful pictures of the Romanian orphans kept in their cots from a few years ago. Plus how far removed from this behaviour is weaving? I'd say it's the same thing.

Me too. We are very good at rationalizing what we do, equine stereo typical behaviours being called 'vices' is just one small example. Horses do such inconvenient things don't they!

If we are going to say that knowing no other way isn't detrimental, then it will be interesting to learn if the 30 year old lady in the alleged slavery case in London is normal and not traumatized. It appears she has known no other life.