(Rant alert ...!) it's NOT my dog's job ...

Greylegs said:
Sorry Alec .... not when he ends up with cracked ribs and other injuries as a result. My dog is well mannered, friendly and obedient when those around him are too. As you say, "dogs speak dog" but I don't want my dog to have to be in a position of having to defend himself against what he sees as aggression, just because other owners can't get hold of their own animals. There have been many times i've had my boy on a lead, walking calmly, when he's been accosted by loose dogs belonging to other people in spite of my asking them to call their dogs off. I stand by my view that owners should
teach dogs good behaviour, discipline and manners and not rely on other dogs to do it for them.
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Totally agree with this. You would not expect a well mannered child to have to beat up ill mannered abusive children that he/she came across on a day to day basis to teach them manners. That is up to a responsible adult.(well, not actually beat them up) IMO it is no different for dog owners. If you have a young, unruly, ill mannered dog it is up to the owner to teach it manners/how to behave around other dogs and people. For sure, it won't do any long term damage if one dog tells another off, but you don't want it on a day to day basis.
 
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There are definitely occasions when a dog can teach another dog manners, my Teasel is a teaching dog at off lead socialisation classes and many a young dog has come bowling up to her and been told to mind their manners. BUT this is in a controlled situation, where the mix of dogs is balanced and the dogs doing the policing/teaching never attack/bite another dog, and a lot of the time just a look is enough.

This is completely different to allowing your dog to go charging up to any dog in a park and expecting that dog to teach yours manners. If your dog does this, you need to work on his impulse control and recall, before subjecting him to the local dogs and certainly never ever allow your off lead dog to run up to an onlead dog.
 
california dreaming said:
Totally agree with this. You would not expect a well mannered child to have to beat up ill mannered abusive children that he/she came across on a day to day basis to teach them manners. That is up to a responsible adult.(well, not actually beat them up) IMO it is no different for dog owners. If you have a young, unruly, ill mannered dog it is up to the owner to teach it manners/how to behave around other dogs and people. For sure, it won't do any long term damage if one dog tells another off, but you don't want it on a day to day basis.
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I wish people would stop comparing human behaviour to dog behaviour. They are not the same!
 
california dreaming said:
For sure, it won't do any long term damage if one dog tells another off,
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I have had 2 very dominant dogs one is still with me but at 16yrs he chooses not to leave the garden but still rules my others with no argument-if in his younger days he had met and been left to discipline unruly dog after unruly dog he would have become aggressive, he was used to discipline very unruly puppies when I was teaching puppy training but that was under supervision, if a dog is called back and put on lead or is already on lead my dogs are not allowed to approach them. In the same way I expect if I am walking a dog on lead or call one back to put on lead I expect others to be under close control-that said I would not excersise an aggressive dog in public without it being muzzled and on lead but I do think there is a distinction between aggressive and grumpy/dominant
 
Also, I did not think the OP had an aggressive dog. Obviously, if you have an aggressive dog who is likely to cause damage to other dogs then it should be muzzled. I was under the impression that OP dog was not aggressive and was just being hassled and traumatised by out of control, unruly, bully dogs out walking.
 
I stand by my view that unless both owners agree, there shouldn't be interaction between random dogs.

Here's how it could go, worst case scenario: other person's dog who I don't know comes up behind my dog who is always on lead, he doesn't like it, and growls, barks or puts his hair up (he has never bitten another dog). The other dog who I have never met attacks mine because it's a dominant dog and mine doesn't want to be dominated. I'm now in the middle of a dog fight and as mine is a large gsd, this fight is likely going to result in damage to dogs and humans.

Or... We could skip all that and do our best to keep our dogs away from other dogs.

To those who say it's my dog's problem that he doesn't like approaches from the rear by other dogs... No. if you look at wild dogs, approaches from the rear are the beginning of an attack, not a greeting. Wild dogs don't bounce up to other dogs all in their faces. No, they approach calmly and steadily with a slow tail wag and have a sniff before getting into each other's space, and respect a request for distance. A lot of today's dogs, like today's owners have no manners.
 
Completely agree with you OP. When I walk my 4 greyhounds they can be very intimidating to other dogs we meet, so I always put them on a lead when we see anyone else approaching. My small-dog-aggressive big male greyhound is always muzzled when walked, but the number of idiots who let their uncontrolled small dogs swarm all over him, even when he is reacting strongly and I am holding him by the collar to prevent an incident, is beyond belief.

It is not my dogs job to teach a small dog manners, because what would undoubtedly happen is that the small dog would get very effectively splatted and the owner would scream blue murder that my dog is aggressive. I take the necessary precautions to ensure my dogs don't p1ss off other dogs, other dog owners should do the same.
 
california dreaming said:
Also, I did not think the OP had an aggressive dog. Obviously, if you have an aggressive dog who is likely to cause damage to other dogs then it should be muzzled. I was under the impression that OP dog was not aggressive and was just being hassled and traumatised by out of control, unruly, bully dogs out walking.
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Thank you. Yes, that's correct.
 
What I dont understand is thinking that a dog approaching another dog is "bad manners" !! It's just natural behaviour. Dogs are sociable, pack animals. Keeping your dog away from all other dogs is not good for your dog's mental health and is your problem, no one else's.
 
One of my pet hates regarding training animals, particularly dogs, is that people expect the training to happen behind closed doors and voila, when the dog is aloud off the lead in public space it behaves impeccably.

Please take into consideration when training a dog it will need training in open spaces, at public events etc. I feel people frown too much upon behaviour exhibited by dogs without bothering to understand the background. I wish people were a little more open minded about how/what we see is acceptable or not acceptable. After all we are all right just different!
 
GeeGeeboy said:
What I dont understand is thinking that a dog approaching another dog is "bad manners" !! It's just natural behaviour. Dogs are sociable, pack animals. Keeping your dog away from all other dogs is not good for your dog's mental health and is your problem, no one else's.
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No but it is how the dogs approach each other as sadken mentioned earlier? ie not all guns blazing!
 
The thing is, if an animal lives in a social group, that doesn't mean all interactions with others of the species will be friendly. Zoos do not tend to introduce a new wolf to a pack by just throwing the animal in there and letting them get on with it!

If you have a group of dogs who live together and are bonded closely (i.e. a pack) and are on ground they see as their territory, they may well see a strange dog running up to them as a threat and respond aggressively. A random dog will not be seen or treated as a fellow pack member.

There is a line between "keeping your dog away from all other dogs" and letting them bound up to strange dogs who you do not know and do not have any knowledge of.

Most dogs are actually remarkably tolerant of strange dogs and humans, but it is within all dogs to respond aggressively if they truly feel threatened, and for that reason, all owners should be careful.

I agree that controlled socialisation with other dogs is great, and often fun for the dogs, but in my opinion this can only happen if both dogs are under control and on equal footing.
 
Penumbra said:
The thing is, if an animal lives in a social group, that doesn't mean all interactions with others of the species will be friendly. Zoos do not tend to introduce a new wolf to a pack by just throwing the animal in there and letting them get on with it!

If you have a group of dogs who live together and are bonded closely (i.e. a pack) and are on ground they see as their territory, they may well see a strange dog running up to them as a threat and respond aggressively. A random dog will not be seen or treated as a fellow pack member.

There is a line between "keeping your dog away from all other dogs" and letting them bound up to strange dogs who you do not know and do not have any knowledge of.

Most dogs are actually remarkably tolerant of strange dogs and humans, but it is within all dogs to respond aggressively if they truly feel threatened, and for that reason, all owners should be careful.
I agree that controlled socialisation with other dogs is great, and often fun for the dogs, but in my opinion this can only happen if both dogs are under control and on equal footing.
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I thought we were talking about dogs interacting in a neutral space(out walking) Of course a space that is territorial (such as a garden)is a completely different matter.
 
GeeGeeboy said:
What I dont understand is thinking that a dog approaching another dog is "bad manners" !! It's just natural behaviour. Dogs are sociable, pack animals. Keeping your dog away from all other dogs is not good for your dog's mental health and is your problem, no one else's.
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This, I ride out with my dog off lead, so don't want to get off everytime I see a dog on a lead. If the oncoming owners flaps, panics, grabs there dog and runs off into the wood/ bushes beside the track, I call mine and we trot on past. But if they just put their dog on a lead on the track (often because they are unsure of my horse!) I will walk quietly past and not stop my dog saying hello. That said he approaches quietly sniffs and then walks on, he will also totally ignore anything yapping and barking he can't be bothered with unsociable dogs. You can pretty much tell what the dog will do by looking at the owners body language!
 
GeeGeeboy said:
Exactly. Neurotic owner=neurotic dog!
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What a relief that neither my dog nor myself are neurotic then. My dog will kill small dogs, that is the fact of the matter, so I stop him doing that. If stupid owners let their small dogs come up to him and wind him up, they are annoying both me and him unnecessarily.
 
Lévrier;12778313 said:
What a relief that neither my dog nor myself are neurotic then. My dog will kill small dogs, that is the fact of the matter, so I stop him doing that. If stupid owners let their small dogs come up to him and wind him up, they are annoying both me and him unnecessarily.
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Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
 
SadKen said:
Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
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I've got a problem being out with my dogs - I have a fairly reactive border terrier who doesn't particularly like other dogs. At his age and the fact that he's arthritic, I don't push this matter too much. On the other leads I have two fairly sociable poodles but the young one bounces and tangles everyone else up. No, I don't let them run off lead because most of the walking I do is a bit too trafficky. They all get a run in a field with no other dogs. They are all socialised, they all go to doggy social gatherings, but when I'm taking the dogs out I don't really want to mingle with other dogs. So if I see someone with a dog = particularly if it's off lead - I change route.
 
Alec Swan said:
OP, sorry, but I am going to disagree with you. IT IS your dog's job to teach the ignorant and the ill mannered, their place! Boys tend to learn from men. It's rarely the other way around!

Dogs speak 'dog', and if the owner of the errant and ill-mannered lout who accosted you on your walk can't teach their dog manners, then the best person to do the education bit, is your dog! :)

Alec.
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Absolutely not! That attitude resulted in my dog, who mostly ignored other dogs, getting set upon by dogs who "had never done such a thing before!!". If your dog is not under your control when off leash he has no right to be off leash, end of story. He should come when called immediately and leave things when told to. The other dogs are not in their pack. Only at home, with dogs that are part of the family is it ok for them to discipline each other and even then if you tell them off they should stop.

On the leash dogs should not socialize unless expressly invited to and that means the people holding the leashes need to communicate.

This attitude results in dogs and people getting hurt just as much as it would with horses.
 
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SadKen said:
Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
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That made me smile wryly - I suppose since he is always muzzled he wouldnt actually do terminal harm after all, so I'll just go for it and tell the owner of the affected dog that it is just how dogs are :p
 
SadKen said:
Perhaps you should let him, levrier. After all, it's 'natural'...

I'm being facetious of course. As it happens I have one extremely friendly, bouncy sociable young gsd and one who's not keen on unknown dogs in his space. Perhaps I have multiple personality disorder; one half neurotic and one half a social butterfly. Or maybe dogs, like humans, are different when it comes to their likes and dislikes.
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Lévrier;12778754 said:
That made me smile wryly - I suppose since he is always muzzled he wouldnt actually do terminal harm after all, so I'll just go for it and tell the owner of the affected dog that it is just how dogs are :p
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Great idea!
 
nianya said:
If your dog is not under your control when off leash he has no right to be off leash, end of story. He should come when called immediately and leave things when told to.
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But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
 
ThoroughbredStar said:
But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
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Agree with this, and if the owner took the time to explain this to me as the reason their small dog approached mine I wouldn't have a problem at all :)
 
ThoroughbredStar said:
But dogs need to learn to be off the leash.....Yes you train at home/enclosed areas etc, but there is a time when coming off the leash for the first time, be it in a park, open field, agility show etc, has to happen. Some dogs can show huge amounts obedience when trained in controlled areas like a garden but that first time, or even second time off the leash can be very exciting, ie may take longer to recall. I find it incredibly unrealistic to expect dogs/horses to do exactly what we say every time- after all they are animals.......
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Phew, thank goodness for this post.

I've heen feeling like a pretty poor owner reading this thread....
 
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