Ranting about chifneys + general lack of horsemanship - discuss

[tuscanyD]

First a rant about chifneys - Supposed to be for rearers - I see them most commonly used to lead horses that are strong and have no manners [but aren't rearers].. I have no problem with anyone who has a horse needing a bit of extra control - but why a chifney! Why not just put a bit in its mouth?

Years ago we used a radical thing called a 'catching bridle' which was a bit and a headpiece. eggbutt or fulmer snaffle usually fine for most for leading - plus doesnt get pulled through mouth in times of stress - in really awkward cases a lunge line was occasionally used as well - gives you a bit of leeway and give and take with the horse.

But I can't understand why anyone would put anything like a chifney in their horses mouth - They are thin nasty and uncomfortable and, to my mind, achieve nothing you couldn't achieve with an ordinary bit and the application of some common sense and basic horsemanship.

Do they instantly cure rearers! Anyone have anything positive to say?


I am told that many veterinary colleges encourage their students to use of them - this information was apparently meant to justify it - to my mind just indicates that vet students may learn the scxience but it is not possible/feasible to teach them comprehensive horsemanship - so in order to give these horse handling novices some control they wack a chifney on the beast.

Same with all these fancy leading halters - they may well 'cure' the problem but was the animal ever taught to lead properly in the first place?

Secondly - Following on from this - My in put to the natural horsemanship debate - There is also a lot of information about curing various problems via lots of well-marketed methods - I've seen discussions on this forum suggesting these methods are just basic common sense!
I agree - and I think that many horses are being bred, broken, sold and ridden by rank amateurs who have no idea how to produce a well mannered animal in the first place.

I don't think our glossy magazines or our riding schools or many instructors put enough emphasis on basic discipline and [that word again] horsemanship. Worse - I think many owners/riders don't want to be bothered with it.

Example: I was once asked by a young lady and her mother how she could feed her pony on the field without the other ponies eating it all.

Common sense answer: take the pony to be fed out of the field and put her back after she's been fed. Horses will fight over food - it can't be avoided so don't create the problem in the first place.

Reaction: didn't want to do that as didn't have time - it took too long.

Common sense answer: tough. there's no sensible way of doing what you want without it actually being more work and labour intensive than just taking the blessed pony out of the field.

Result: Another horsey friend decided she could sort this out - took a bucket of feed into the field - practically trampled in the rush by other ponies - ended with her swinging the bucket [feed flying everywhere] around her head to fend off the mob . She ran back to the gate - saw me standing there - stuck her nose in the air and said 'I think that went alright'.

A couple of days later I see my young friend taking her pony out of the field to feed it.


Horse management is about time, patience, persistence, empathy and consistency. Basic discipline. If you can't offer these to your horse then you shouldn't have one.

end of rant - feel free to join in or rant back.

 

[SSM]

I personally have never used a chifney except once and only once on a pony that the owner was told was strong and the first time we tried the headcollar the pony was gone faster than a grand prix car - it went back the next day.

Saying that however I am going to be using one on the Donkey on Sunday (yes I can hear you all gasp!) We are clipping her, I have done all the intellegent horsemanship - the desensitising, hand held clippers etc - yet still the moment those clippers (very quiet hand held ones I may add) come near her she lunges, rears, bites and swings around to kick you. My instructor (very experienced with loopy racehorses) had the exact same reaction - has told me sedalin, twitch and chiffney and two of plough on and get it done. She is a big strong horse and knows it - not in a taking the p*ss way but it is not worth the risk of anyone getting injured so - critise all you want I will be using one

 

[AmyMay]

We use chiffneys on horses that aren't rearers (we don't have any rearers actually). It is something that is only used rarely. In knowledgeable hands really don't have a problem with chiffneys.

 

[KatB]

I have no problem using chifneys. I brought my horse from a fabulous couple who breed horses for a living, and are very in to making everything nice for the horses, yet they handle all their stallions in a chifney. Sometimes, a bit will just not cut it, and if used correctly, a chifney will just give a short sharp reminder that we require respect, and makes it alot more pleasant for a horse and handler than someone hauling on their mouth constantly, and still not geiing required response.

I have also known a horse who used to literallt tow you anywhere possibel, yes he should have been taught to lead properly in the first place, but this hadn't happened, and we were on the recieving end of the behaviour. This horse was an expensive comp animal that had to be lead on a road from the field. We preferred leading it in a chifney and knowing we had control and safety, than not and ending up with an injured horse. This horse stopped needing any form of device to lead it after a mnth of learning respect.

They have their place, and I certainly have no problem using one if needed.

 

[cobwithattitude]

As mentioned Chffneys have a purpose and certainly do prevent, in the right hands, problems but I have seen a horse with a serious jaw injury through getting loose (at a show) with a chifney and standing on the rope - not at all nice.

 

[kildalton]

Well they were using a Chiffney on Supervets last night ! Agree totally with your rationale for using one, SSM

 

[cosmo_sam]

I do agree that horsemanship is not focused on enough at lower levels these days.

As for the Chifney debate. Well I have used one, and would again if he circumstance arose.

I've never needed one with George, BUT I use a Dually headcollar with him to load, and if I ever feel I may need him a little more switched on to me. I did teach him to lead well and he was always very obedient, but when I used the dually after we had some early loading problems I'm now a strong advocate of it in the right circumstances.

The horse I've used a chifney on was the 17.1hh mare I shared for 4 years. She had been professionally backed at an SJ yard and her owner bought her with serious problems at 5.

We only needed the chifney for loading as she had banged her head in the past and so would panic and throw her head up. A dually didn't help this as it's tightening would make her worse. The chifney seemed to give her confidence that because she couldn't throw her head up, she didn't worry and would load impeccably. We never hurt her with it, and it was purely to stop her being her own worst enemy. She genuinely relaxed with it on.

So again, in the right circumstances I would use one.

 

[KatB]

That is where I dislike tham, in wrong hands they are severe.

 

[Lucy_Ally]

My mare was inherently stroppy and bolshy when I got her and was handled regularly in a chiffney for her own and the handlers safety! TBH I was a bit unsure of using it purely as when she tried to toe me along all the pressure was on her mouth. I invested in one of those new fangled intelligent horsemanship (shock horror!) be nice halters. I have to say it is the best investment I have made for Spring, all 9 stone of me stopped all 600kg of her from a gallop with one sharp tug on the leadrope! No pain or soreness in her mouth ensued just much more respect for being led, she will still occasionally try it on and toe me off but the be nice halter just stops her in her tracks. So the chiffney is hung up and not used anymore, she does not and has not ever reared with me but when you have a half ton plus stroppy elephant with a mind of its own sometimes its nice to have that extra control.
As regards IH, I am not a huge fan of Parelli, and think that a lot of Monty Roberrs methods are common sense and things that good horsemen do without thinking about it, but if it helps novice riders/owners develop some empathy then its got to be good and well done to Monty for capturing the niche in the market!

 

[Ashf]

I went to pick my kid up from Hartpury college a couple of days ago, and while trying to track her down on the yard I saw a lecturer put one of the stallions into a chiffney to turn him out.

I don't think its fair to say that people will go overboard as a matter of course. I think most methods or implements are arrived at by trial and error.

I would expect that they had a fair bit of history to arrive at this method of control with him.

 

[tuscanyD]

I'm willing to learn - someone please explain to me what 'in the right hands'/'in knowledgable hands'/'used correctly' actually means in terms of the use and application of a chifney.

 

[Oaksflight]

I have no problem with chifneys, but only if they are in experienced hands and used as a last resort. I personally would try everything else before (once I'd thought about why the problem was occuring, and would possibly try some IH methods, as I have in the past and some of them have worked but with others, have not), headcollar, halter, rope round the nose, gag rope, pressure halter, plain bridle, and then finally a chifney. If used in by someone with common sense and experience, then they can be far kinder than an inexperienced person and a pressure halter (I've heard nasty stories about an inexperienced person using a chifney). I personally have never had to use one, as have managed to stop at a bridle. And at the end of the day, if it comes down to the point of it's either you injured or the horse restrained in a less kind way, then there's not much choice.

ETA: I wouldn't automatically get one out for a rearer either. Mine was a rearer when I first got him, only when scared and wouldn't dare when someone was on his back as is a complete gentleman then. However, 9/10 months on, the last time he reared was probably April. When it's a case like this, hard work and correct horsemanship can fix it, however when a horse is older, and malicious and rears to be nasty, then it's not always possible unfortunately.

 

[samp]

I am personally not a huge fan of them and we never used them at 1 of the largest equine hospitals I worked out. I don't like the damage they can inflict in the wrong hands of if they get loose

 

[KatB]

In the right hands is someone who is competent and uses commoin sense when handling horses, and doesnt just follow a fad/ use it in place of correct handling. They DO NOT take the place of good basics, they are just useful for reinstating the horse/handler respect. They should NEVER be used just on their own, as that is when they are abused, and become ineffective, because that is the only thing being used. they should be used along side a headcollar, headcollar should be applied, then if no response, chifney should be used. NOT as a tool on its own. It is used for short sharp reprimand, not constant use.

 

[the watcher]

Can't do that - have never used a chifney, never owned one, can't see myself ever needing one.

In general terms I think we have to accept that more and more people are owning horses how, and handling horses is no longer limited to an elite who had years, if not generations, of horsemanship skills. the vast availability of magazines relating to horse ownership and the level of them suggest that there are thousands out there with little or no skills at all.

We can't stop this or change it so i think we just have to learn to live with it

 

[kick_On]

i agree KatB
speaking from experience i have horse which has to be lead with bit in mouth (normally snaffle) but i had to go to chiffney on very rare occasions, when said gg will not repect snaffle.

 

[tuscanyD]

But do you not think that whether it is used as a secondary method after the headcollar or on its own - that basically it works by inflicting good old fashioned pain? the thin wire puts very acute pressure on the bars and the u shape digs into the tongue. this could [and does] cause pain and bruising no matter whether its a novice or expert on the end of the rope.

If the horse is inclined to misbehave and throws its head around it will inflict that pain no matter what you do. And its generally understood that their natural instinct is to run from pain. Or fight.

 

[pottamus]

Well I have used a chiffney and will use one again where necessary. I have used one with my horse but it just hangs in his mouth and is there if I need it as a reminder.
It is all good and well saying that people should train their horses to be better mannered or use be nice halters etc...but all circumstances are different. I believe that if you have a horse with issues or that can take the mick on odd occasions then that horse needs to be managed and kept safe for itself, its handler and all others around it! Better that than have a horse break free from its handler and gallop about the place causing havoc or injuring itself or others!
Just because you put a chiffney in a horses mouth does not mean it is being used...because if done correctly it will just hang there ineffectually until or if needed.
I bought a horse who was 6 but had done nothing in its life other than get its own way by being bargy and bolshy. When I took it on he knew his strength and used it against any handler to break free. A very good instructor helped me and trained me in the correct use of a chiffney and it had very good results. But the training of this horses bad ways took months and because he has already learn't he can get away...it is always there in the background if he gets stressed or excited.
I only put it in now for loading and that is because I know if I don't and he wanted to play up he wouls get away from me. I have tried pressure halters, be nice halters, bridle but he can get away from me in all. So to be safe in a field full of horses and trailers I load in a chifney but don't actually use it unless he has a bad day.
I think they have their place in the right hands...but it is harsh for anyone to judge their use unless they have been towed and nearly trampled by half a tonne of stroppy horse on more than one occasion!!!!
I want to be safe with my horse and that means being in control of him...because then we are both happy and he knows his boundarys.

 

[KatB]

Yes, but so does a jointed bit! IMO a short pull on a chifney is alot kinder than a constant nutcracker action from a jointed bit. And they should only be used as a last resort, and not as an everyday treatment!

 

[kick_On]

in my case i use a bridle and bit cos horse, will and has pissed.......... off with just head collar on.
So i ALWAYS use bridle with bit in and under nomal conditions he's happy and chilled. Even if a little bouncy (bucking) can still control with snaffle, but on occasions when he's had box rest he will only repect chiffney, but i don't have use it's the threat that works for him.
BUT if you want to try and lead my horse in a head collar your welcome

as i know you'll end up with your face in a buried in a very large muddy pond and gg having a laugh at you plus you could have too plates on metal on your head aswell
A chiffney should IMO be used as a last resort and not all the time, but i'm not going to have a 650kg horse walk/trot or canter over me. And yes in the wrong agressive hands they can cause damage, but what damage can at 650kg horse do to a human???

 

[pottamus]

I totally agree with you on this! Better be safe than sorry! I hink if you know your horse well enough you will work with them in order to keep them chilled and in control...and in your (and mine) situation it is prevention rather than cure!

 

[Nailed]

the chifney anti rear bit is the best and fastst method of turning a none rearing into a rearer!
lou x

 

[Tia]

Try to think of a chifney like a car safety belt.......if nothing untoward happens then it doesn't come into effect. If something does happen then you have a restraint which should save you and the horse from possible injury.

Why a chifney is used is not really relevant - how it is used definitely is!

They are an invaluable tool and most decent yards will own one. I have one, haven't used it for many many years......but it is there just incase it is ever needed again.

Just out of interest - have you ever used one? Or have you never had a horse with great power?

 

[MrsMagoo]

Im my opinion does nothing to stop a horse rearing, infact made mine worse

 

[Twiglet]

I've never liked them at all - however, after seeing one used in a more suitable context, I do think they have a time and a place.

My friend has a 17.2hh spooky, strong horse. He's not bad mannered but he does spook easily and will go up if he's in one of his moods.
My 15.3hh is pretty similar, but I'm far more confident in my ability to control a 15.3hh lightweight in a headcollar, than i am a 17.2hh MW - so she uses a chifney, which he has total respect for, and makes leading stress free and easy.

I'd far rather decent, calm control in a chifney than yanking pointlessly on a headcollar or being run over by 3/4 ton of spooked horse.

 

[tuscanyD]

All horses and ponies have great power! the whole point of schooling and training is to literally harness that power and direct it positively.

there are no problem horses.......only problem people.

"Why a chifney is used is not really relevant - how it is used definitely is!"

Sorry but this is clearly the opposite of all common horse sense . Until you understand the cause you are only dealing with the symptoms.

Yes I have used one many times over the last 20 years or so - when working on yards or for private owners with horses of all types.
And yes I used it with discretion, sympathy and, as far as is possible, only when needed.

When you are leading a difficult horse that decides to throw itself up in the air to get away from you, buck rear, or try to turn and kick, or those particularly special horses that set their necks completely rigidly and simply tank off into the sunset - or in extra special cases - all of them at once - obviously I agree a person needs extra control.

At no point have I suggested anyone should put themselves in danger or only lead from a headcollar!

Most restraint or discipline methods work on some sort of pressure giving basis, sometimes even pain [the whip and spurs spring to mind] - BUT in my experience I have seen better, more positive and longer lasting results achieved with an ordinary bit and some sensible, informed training and handling than with a chifney -

I believe they are self perpetuating. the pain they inflict often causes anxiety in the horse that then can only expect more chifney and pain.

My own horse generally has beautiful manners - she came with them so I can't take credit for them but I do take credit that she still has them.

 

[tuscanyD]

Interesting that most people are also either saying use a chifney or get towed around in a headcollar and rather glossing over the using a bit option.

 

[cobwithattitude]

Thank you for defining competent hands, Kat B - just returned from getting my boiler fixed so I can have some heating in my house this evening! I do agree with more and more people owning horses what we put in their mouths is becoming more diverse and open to abuse - there is no owner's manual per se when you buy a horse is there? The only help I can be is to suggest and advise when neccesary and to bring my children up not to abuse their horses. I do not like chifneys but they can be useful - I was merely pointing out the safety aspects of them (also a rope/chain round the jaw and through a bit is subject to the same danger if a horse gets loose.) Anything is open to abuse if used 'incorrectly'

.

 

[pottamus]

Well I can exclude myself here because I have tried the bridle bit if only because I was getting flack from people at events for using a chiffney! But from experince I know my horse can get away from me in a bridle too.
My horse is great at home and knows how to behave etc but under pressure at events or when things get a bit too exciting he can forget himself (and me) when instinct kicks in. It is at times like these that I would rather have complete control with his chifney in than risk it with a bridle.
With time and experience he will get better at these situations but I think people prefer me to keep my horse by my side, rather than him escaping and running riot!!!

I guess people will always question the 'manners' of a horse that needs a chiffney...but I could not care less about what people think of me or my horse, so long as we are both safe, happy and stay together!

 

[lillie]

[ QUOTE ]
I see them most commonly used to lead horses that are strong and have no manners [but aren't rearers].. I have no problem with anyone who has a horse needing a bit of extra control - but why a chifney! Why not just put a bit in its mouth?

Years ago we used a radical thing called a 'catching bridle' which was a bit and a headpiece. eggbutt or fulmer snaffle usually fine for most for leading - plus doesnt get pulled through mouth in times of stress - in really awkward cases a lunge line was occasionally used as well - gives you a bit of leeway and give and take with the horse.



[/ QUOTE ]

my friends m,are has a chifney she can be a rearer but is very strong & a normal bit will not stop her the chofney maintains a contol on her mouth/head which is what she uses to get away from you she sticks it to the florr & runs. my horse however has a headpiece with a fulmer as we have to walk on the road to bring him in & he fine with that, it depends on the horse as i dont feel confortable with the mare in s normal bit as she still runs off & she has trampled me before when not bitted & its not an experience i wish to repeat