Rates Nightmare (NNDR)

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FarmerGilies

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Someone needs to pinch me so I awake from this nightmare.

Just been contacted by www.voa.gov.uk to say that they have been asked by our local council to rate our manege and stables for NNDR. We've been in this property for 4 years and this is the first I've ever heard of this, my neighbours (with horsey facilities) have never heard of it either, none of their property is NNDR rated (YET).

We have a 20 x 60 manege, 4 stables, small tack room and hay barn.

I did a bit of research and in the end contacted BHS for advice - The nightmare now gets worse as they say the council could come back at us to 01-04-2010 and as we're not a business (we're not actually allowed to run a business due to planning restrictions on the riding school and stables) we wouldn't qualify for Small Business Rate Relief either.

The chap from BHS did give me some pointers on how to try to get them to lower the rateable value for some of the buildings in our yard when they visit and he advised us to play on the fact that we're not allowed to run as a business - This actually worries me more, as an admission that we're not a business surely disqualifies us from claiming the relief?

All a complete nightmare as this potentially exposes us to having to pay a bill of several thousand pounds in arrears and then an ongoing payment of probably around £1K per annum.

Needless to say we don't have that sort of cash washing around to pay the "arrears" and we're budgeted down to the last penny anyway so an additional £100 a month will force us to sell up and move.

All very sad - Any advice anyone?
 
I don't actually have any real knowledge on this sorry but I always wonder why manages and stables for private use on the home owners property ( I am assuming you live on the property) can attract rates when things like outdoor tennis courts do not. I also can't see the difference between stables, and garages/outbuildings which are not rated separately either.
 
Hmm, I sympathise! My next door neighbours don't have to pay non domestic rates because their stables are within the curtilage of their house, I think their manège is a secret!

Because my land is slightly further away from my house I'm landed with the dreaded nddr, bummer!

Anyway, for your case, I think the BHS advice is right, I'm not sure that NOT being a business disqualifies you from the relief, odd as it may sound (I'm sure someone more knowledgable will correct me).

If the worse comes to the worst, I think you'd have a very good chance of getting out of paying arrears, it's not your fault they've taken 4 years to assess you.

Good luck, I'm sure you pay your fair share of tax already!

PS if your buildings are within the curtilage of your house shouldn't the tax be added to your council tax rather than non domestic business rates? Or is there a limit on the buildings you can have within the curtilage of your house? My neighbours got away with five stables, a feed room and a barn, but the manège is a secret!
 
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I would employ the thoughts of an independent planning consultant or a surveyor. Did you get change of use from agricultural land when permission was granted for equestrian facilities?

Private Dwelling with stables within the curtilage of your home ie garden - You are required to pay NNDR
If you do not have a dwelling whatsoever with the stables ie : a seperate yard you pay NNDR

Sadly the law governing business rates (The Local Government Finance Act 1988) is different to the Town and Country Planning Act which governs planning Law.
Remember that on appeal you might end up paying more. If your RV (Rateable value) is less than £15,000 speak to your local authority and apply for small business rate relief this could save you up to 50% if your RV is under £5,000 and for the current year 100%.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this difficult situation. If all else fails - I would be going back to your solicitor who you used when purchasing the property and questioning the validity of any due diligence searches carried out before you bought - they don't appear to have stood up one way or another in this case!
 
I am really struggling to find anyone to help with this as no-one in my area has, it would seem, ever been attacked by the council in this way.

Local surveyors tell me they are aware of the legislation but bot aware of anyone actually being NNDR rated. I live well out in the sticks with very few neighbours. Those that have horsey facilities and those that don't have never heard of this being enforced before.
 
RunToEarth said:
I would employ the thoughts of an independent planning consultant or a surveyor. Did you get change of use from agricultural land when permission was granted for equestrian facilities?

Private Dwelling with stables within the curtilage of your home ie garden - You are required to pay NNDR
If you do not have a dwelling whatsoever with the stables ie : a seperate yard you pay NNDR

Sadly the law governing business rates (The Local Government Finance Act 1988) is different to the Town and Country Planning Act which governs planning Law.
Remember that on appeal you might end up paying more. If your RV (Rateable value) is less than £15,000 speak to your local authority and apply for small business rate relief this could save you up to 50% if your RV is under £5,000 and for the current year 100%.

I'm sorry you find yourself in this difficult situation. If all else fails - I would be going back to your solicitor who you used when purchasing the property and questioning the validity of any due diligence searches carried out before you bought - they don't appear to have stood up one way or another in this case!
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There you go, I knew someone would know!
 
I sympathise, the valuations officer came to look round our house and decided that we could run it as three units so therefore we needed to pay three lots of council tax: one lot as the whole house, Band E, plus two additional Band A charges. When we started discussing it it seems that everyone with a utility room with shower and loo, or utility room and downstairs loo and shower room is potentially at risk. They were not interested in the fact that part of the house was illegal with no planning permission or that one "unit" had no electricity to it and the drains weren't connected, just that in theory there was enough space for a bed/living room, a kitchen (which is any space with a sink - no need for cooker points nowadays) which could be part of the bed/living room (studio!) and a loo and washing facilities and therefore it was rateable as a separate living unit.
 
Going through the process of buying equestrian property - how can I check whether NNDR should be payable - the vendors don't currently pay them - but that doesn't seem to be too helpful in determining whether they should be!!

Property we are looking at has old agricultural buildings - large cattle barn, with internal stables built within in - if that makes any difference.

OP could you go back to planning and get permission for business use or start keeping some sheep or pigs 'commercially' so you qualify as a 'small business' - for several £thousand, I'd be carefully checking the definition of 'small business'
 
It would, as would removing the other facilities, although that's a hell of a drastic step and would devalue the property considerably. We paid a huge premium for a house with "equestrian facilities".

I'm tempted to attack this initially by going back to the solicitors and asking why this wasn't discovered during the conveyance. Planning was given for the stables in 2002 and the manege in 2004. We took over the property in April 2010.
 
My friend has the same problem. The council are going after anyone who has put a planning application in during the last few years. She had to apply for new stables etc. when hers were completely destroyed in an arson attack (she is in green belt).

She got 100% relief for this year and has to apply for a reduction next year.

I expect they are starting when there is a change for whatever reason, and anyone else will be caught at a later date.

Edited to add I think her rates are worked out on so much per stable/tack room/manege/haybarn.
 
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FarmerGilies said:
It would, as would removing the other facilities, although that's a hell of a drastic step and would devalue the property considerably. We paid a huge premium for a house with "equestrian facilities".

I'm tempted to attack this initially by going back to the solicitors and asking why this wasn't discovered during the conveyance. Planning was given for the stables in 2002 and the manege in 2004. We took over the property in April 2010.
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Just class it as a 'turn out' pen.
 
I suspect they tripped over us by accident as we run a small B&B or one of their bods cruising Google Earth.

Planning was given for the stables in 2002 and the manege in 2004 - Not our property then - we took over the property in April 2010.

We haven't put in for any planning or changes of use since we arrived here.

@amymay

I'm not sure that would work as they say their valuation is based on "what the facilities could be used for NOT what they are actually being used for" unless it falls under one of their exemption categories.
 
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amymay said:
Just class it as a 'turn out' pen.
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Would this work with stables too? call one a wash box and one a feed room, one a rug room etc etc.

OP if you run a B&B then surely you are a business and can apply for the reliefs? Or does it have to be a horse related business? If so offer bring your horse on holiday - they can't use the stables or school (so no planning issue) and if you never get any so what - the relief is for a business not just a sucessful business.
 
You need specialist advice quickly .
Good luck with it .
How the hell its fair and equitable to charge a buisness rate on a asset you can't run a buisness on is beyond me .
 
FarmerGilies said:
It would, as would removing the other facilities, although that's a hell of a drastic step and would devalue the property considerably. We paid a huge premium for a house with "equestrian facilities".

I'm tempted to attack this initially by going back to the solicitors and asking why this wasn't discovered during the conveyance. Planning was given for the stables in 2002 and the manege in 2004. We took over the property in April 2010.
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Where abouts in the country are you, PM me if you prefer, I work in the industry and I'm sure we could find you someone in the know.

I think going back to your solicitors is your first plan of attack. Home buyers pay a lot of money for conveyancing and due diligence checks are designed exclusively to pick out issues like this - they should have found the connection between the two and it is not fair they have missed it and you are picking up the bill.
 
I am struggling to find anyone who can actually give professional advice, save for the chap at BHS.

Regarding what you use the facilities for, it may or may not, but a wash box or feed room *might well* end up rating higher than a stable. Hopefully we can persuade the VOA that the old cob and stone built stables (and they are old too, c 1900) are not usable as stables now so we use them for "domestic storage", wood store etc.
 
Goldenstar said:
You need specialist advice quickly .
Good luck with it .
How the hell its fair and equitable to charge a buisness rate on a asset you can't run a buisness on is beyond me .
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I agree, it seems some poorly thought out gap between the finance act and the planning act, it is mad how many disparities appear as an afterthought of acts.
 
As far as the state and it's many arms Are concerned it's open season on anyone who they view as having a few ££££ ( that you have already paid tax on ) they can get their greedy mits on .
I hope they pick on someone at some point with the money and balls to take them on and fight them through the courts .
 
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Land such as grass paddocks generally qualify as grazing, meadow and pasture and is exempt regardless of what is grazed on it.

Rates on the barn would depend on what you used it for: Ironically if you cut your own hay and store it in your own barn to sell, then its agricultural use and exempt, even though a business. If you cut your own hay and store it in your own barn to feed to your own horses then it would be rated as a hay barn at xyz quid per square metre, even though its not a business. Grossly unfair.
 
FarmerGilies said:
Land such as grass paddocks generally qualify as grazing, meadow and pasture and is exempt regardless of what is grazed on it.

Rates on the barn would depend on what you used it for: Ironically if you cut your own hay and store it in your own barn to sell, then its agricultural use and exempt, even though a business. If you cut your own hay and store it in your own barn to feed to your own horses then it would be rated as a hay barn at xyz quid per square metre, even though its not a business. Grossly unfair.
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It is grossly unfair I wonder if there is any case law where people have appealed the desision .
Good luck with it .
 
Why wouldn't you qualify for small business rates relief? I know of plenty of yards who have five boxes and a school and tack room and get full relief. The only reason you won't qualify for this is if you have another business in your name.

You are unlikely to have to pay £100 per month in rates on 4 stables and a school even if you can't get the SBRR. You don't pay the full rateable value of whatever it is valued at, you only pay the multiplier. You can search the VOA site to find other stables in your area and what they are valued at. I think the ones round me are £225 - 250 per year per stable (that's the rateable value - NOT the amount you pay) and then of course there is the ménage. How that is valued depends on whether it is outdoor, indoor, and floodlit or not.

This may help you
http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/static/HelpPages/English/help/help064-how_we_rate_stables.html
 
Hi. I am currently in the same situation as the OP. We bought our property in August 2013 and the VOA said that the council had given them our details. The previous owners of the property put in stables and a sand school, we have been rated even though the permission is for domestic use only! Our council tax has also gone up. I am currently in the process of appealing their decision and have looked on the VOA website and found that only businesses in my area are currently rated. We are getting business rate relief at the moment but the government won't provide this forever and we can't afford £1000 per year on rates. I have also written to Eric Pickles the MP for local governments.
If anyone knows a planning consultant or solicitor in Devon who could help me please let me know.
 
We received a NDR demand when we moved to our current address. We qualified for an exemption - can't remember exactly why but there was an information leaflet which accompanied the demand. I think it was something to do with the rateable value - have a chat with your L/A.
 
Regarding SBRR we might qualify if we're a business but we're not (planning restriction) allowed to run the stables as a business. Whether all the various depts in the council are joined up enough to apply this is up for grabs. I'll certainly apply for it. Our main business is "our house" as a B&B which I've tried to integrate with the equestrian facilities although no one as yet is biting although it doesn't mean I can't call it part of the business.

My big worries are:

(1) Council coming at me for arrears of probably £1K per annum (if the rateable value of the facilities is c£2k).
(2) The ongoing expense of around £1K PA.
(3) The effect this might have on the sale price of the property.
(4) Why was this missed during the conveyance of the property?

I've been on the voa website upside down and inside out :(
 
We are not allowed to run our stables as a business and don't intend to. We still qualify for the small business rate relief, you can also back date the rate relief.
 
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