FarmerGilies
Member
@katherine1975
Do you actually claim & receive it currently?
Can you tell me which council (PM me preferably)?
Tx
Do you actually claim & receive it currently?
Can you tell me which council (PM me preferably)?
Tx
Rates Nightmare (NNDR)
- Thread starter FarmerGilies
- Start date
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
Regarding SBRR we might qualify if we're a business but we're not (planning restriction) allowed to run the stables as a business. Whether all the various depts in the council are joined up enough to apply this is up for grabs. I'll certainly apply for it. Our main business is "our house" as a B&B which I've tried to integrate with the equestrian facilities although no one as yet is biting although it doesn't mean I can't call it part of the business.
My big worries are:
(1) Council coming at me for arrears of probably £1K per annum (if the rateable value of the facilities is c£2k).
(2) The ongoing expense of around £1K PA.
(3) The effect this might have on the sale price of the property.
(4) Why was this missed during the conveyance of the property?
I've been on the voa website upside down and inside out
Ok - well now you may have something. We have a livery yard near me which I have checked out on the VOA website - now originally this was rated as a holiday let (not attached to the main house), the livery yard, and the CTAX was payable on the main house. The holiday let and the livery yard were merged together so that it all came under one hereditament. That is what you need to do. I also have something at the back of my mind, that you are allowed four (sorry if that is the wrong number) stables deemed as for personal use before any rates are payable on them.
If one person has two properties which are NNDR rateable (as in your case with the stables and the B&B) and there are no other rated properties physically between them, then you should be rated as one hereditament.
So basically if you can ringfence your NNDR rateable properties (as if you could draw a line around them with no other owned properties in between) then you can apply for it to be rated as one hereditament. If it is one hereditament, then you should be able to apply for SBRR. I don't think it matters if you are running it as a business or not - if it is deemed rateable, then you are eligible to apply for the relief. Good luck.
katherine1975
Well-Known Member
I don't think Holly Hocks is correct, we have 4 stables within the original hereditment of our property and have been rated. We do not run a business and have planning permission for domestic use only.
OP we are in mid Devon council. We have been rated and currently claim small business rate relief.
OP we are in mid Devon council. We have been rated and currently claim small business rate relief.
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
Ah ok, I wasn't sure about that part, but as you say, may still be eligible for SBRR.
FarmerGilies
Member
The "killer" in our situation is that the stables and manege are across the road from our property so the yard is not in the curtiledge of the property.
The B&B won't be NNDR rateable as its only one bedroom (2 beds), you have to have 6 beds (or maybe its 6+) to be NNDR rateable as I understand it.
Its all at the one address.
Its all very complex which is why I desperately need professional advice to avoid slipping into some trap that leaves me liable for payments I might otherwise be able to avoid.
The B&B won't be NNDR rateable as its only one bedroom (2 beds), you have to have 6 beds (or maybe its 6+) to be NNDR rateable as I understand it.
Its all at the one address.
Its all very complex which is why I desperately need professional advice to avoid slipping into some trap that leaves me liable for payments I might otherwise be able to avoid.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread about this on
''It is simple. If you have stables (and sand school, etc) at home then you won't have to pay Business rates regardless of whether they are located in your garden despite what the VOA say!
It is not what the VOA say that counts it is what the law says. So GOOGLE the law (s66(1) LGFA 1988) and read it.
66 Domestic property.
(1) property is domestic if—
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance (ie stables,etc) belonging to or enjoyed with your home
NOTE IT SAYS belonging to OR enjoyed with. This means you don't have to satisfy 'belonging to' ie within the curtiledge, but just 'enjoyed with' to be considered DOMESTIC PROPERTY and not subject to Business Rates.
NOTE the VOA change the wording of the law and paraphrase it to read:
1) property is domestic if—
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance (ie stables,etc) belonging to AND enjoyed with your home
ie they state that you have to satisfy both criteria: 'belonging to And enjoyed with'
Read more: http://horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/72377/rates-on-private-stables-voa?page=2#ixzz2sOms0Xoe
''It is simple. If you have stables (and sand school, etc) at home then you won't have to pay Business rates regardless of whether they are located in your garden despite what the VOA say!
It is not what the VOA say that counts it is what the law says. So GOOGLE the law (s66(1) LGFA 1988) and read it.
66 Domestic property.
(1) property is domestic if—
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance (ie stables,etc) belonging to or enjoyed with your home
NOTE IT SAYS belonging to OR enjoyed with. This means you don't have to satisfy 'belonging to' ie within the curtiledge, but just 'enjoyed with' to be considered DOMESTIC PROPERTY and not subject to Business Rates.
NOTE the VOA change the wording of the law and paraphrase it to read:
1) property is domestic if—
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance (ie stables,etc) belonging to AND enjoyed with your home
ie they state that you have to satisfy both criteria: 'belonging to And enjoyed with'
Read more: http://horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/72377/rates-on-private-stables-voa?page=2#ixzz2sOms0Xoe
katherine1975
Well-Known Member
Honetpot our stables are 'belonging to and enjoyed with' our property but we have been classed as non domestic as we have two entrances to the property. We would block one if we could but it is necessary for access to the rear of the property and the fields.
I am appealing their decision and will be seeking legal advice. Although we get 100% rate relief at the moment this will not always be available.
I am appealing their decision and will be seeking legal advice. Although we get 100% rate relief at the moment this will not always be available.
LynH
Well-Known Member
Our stables were built in August and the arena in the February last year and within a week of the yard being completed we were assessed for NNDR. The guy who came round to assess knew very little about how to assess equestrian property. To be fair to him he was a really nice guy and explained his understanding of the rules and how to avoid them. It was clearly a very subjective decision as to whether they were within the curtilege of the house or not and whether they were for domestic use. His first view was that they were not for domestic use as he commented on how large the block was and had I not been there to show him exactly was the yard contained I'm pretty sure he would have gone for non domestic use.
The key points in him deciding that we were not liable were
a) that we had the same number of stables (3) as bedrooms which meant that there is one horse per person. We also have a tackroom, a hay barn the size of a double garage and a covered wash area/walkway to the arena. He didn't check any of this but just looked across at them from our front garden and took photos from there and the road.
b) that they were within the curtilege of the house. This again was subjective as the yard and arena are both on a separate piece of land which is on a separate deed but directly next to the house. The assessor just looked at them and said 'they are pretty close aren't they'. He didn't look at deeds or measure again he just 'assessed' and took photos from the road.
c) that they were all my horses. He did explain that as far as he understood I did not have to own all the horses and I could actually rent a stable out even though they are specifically listed as for private use in the planning permission but it helps the decision if I do own them all. The same rule as renting a room to a lodger applies for both NNDR and for the planning permission. (I did check with the council re private use on planning permission and they said that yes you can rent out stables which as classified as private in the same way you can with bedrooms but you cannot run it as a business.)
d) an arena under 20x40m is not liable at all OR if it is within the curtilege of the house and for domestic use only it is not liable. Ours is 20x40 and behind the stables in our field so he wasn't sure whether it should be rateable so in our case the lack of clear rules and his lack of understanding and inexperience dealing with equestrian went in out favour as he chose to class it as domestic. He did advise that if we got reassessed in the future we should move the fence so it's 20x39.5m and not rateable. He again didn't measure it.
e) our field shelter doesn't have doors so did not have to be rated and there was some uncertainty that if the stables or the hay barn had their top doors removed and they couldn't closed and lockable then they could be classes as run ins and therefore not rateable. An elderly neighbour of ours has done this to his stables to avoid paying NNDR and his land is classed as commercial but not currently used as a business. According to the guy who assessed us he had no idea if this was true or not again showing the subjectivity of the decision and what a complete farce the whole process is.
What I took from the assessment is that there are no clear guidelines or rules on how to assess and that this could be used to appeal any decision. He also told us that if we were ever charged NNDR then to apply for small business relief even though we are classed as private use under the planning permission.
I'm sorry that I cannot give you any useful advice other than my experience. I, like you, had been worried that I may be hit with a large bill I hadn't expected or budgeted for and was thrown by how little the assessor knew. However as their assessors have no clear guidelines for equestrian properties I would have appealed had I received a decision making me rateable. There also seems to be no logical process for deciding which properties to assess or when. We couldn't work out why they assessed us when they did as they had no information from us that the stables had been built. We had the planning permission approved in May 2013 however they turned up to assess, with no prior warning or letter, one week after the stables went up.
The key points in him deciding that we were not liable were
a) that we had the same number of stables (3) as bedrooms which meant that there is one horse per person. We also have a tackroom, a hay barn the size of a double garage and a covered wash area/walkway to the arena. He didn't check any of this but just looked across at them from our front garden and took photos from there and the road.
b) that they were within the curtilege of the house. This again was subjective as the yard and arena are both on a separate piece of land which is on a separate deed but directly next to the house. The assessor just looked at them and said 'they are pretty close aren't they'. He didn't look at deeds or measure again he just 'assessed' and took photos from the road.
c) that they were all my horses. He did explain that as far as he understood I did not have to own all the horses and I could actually rent a stable out even though they are specifically listed as for private use in the planning permission but it helps the decision if I do own them all. The same rule as renting a room to a lodger applies for both NNDR and for the planning permission. (I did check with the council re private use on planning permission and they said that yes you can rent out stables which as classified as private in the same way you can with bedrooms but you cannot run it as a business.)
d) an arena under 20x40m is not liable at all OR if it is within the curtilege of the house and for domestic use only it is not liable. Ours is 20x40 and behind the stables in our field so he wasn't sure whether it should be rateable so in our case the lack of clear rules and his lack of understanding and inexperience dealing with equestrian went in out favour as he chose to class it as domestic. He did advise that if we got reassessed in the future we should move the fence so it's 20x39.5m and not rateable. He again didn't measure it.
e) our field shelter doesn't have doors so did not have to be rated and there was some uncertainty that if the stables or the hay barn had their top doors removed and they couldn't closed and lockable then they could be classes as run ins and therefore not rateable. An elderly neighbour of ours has done this to his stables to avoid paying NNDR and his land is classed as commercial but not currently used as a business. According to the guy who assessed us he had no idea if this was true or not again showing the subjectivity of the decision and what a complete farce the whole process is.
What I took from the assessment is that there are no clear guidelines or rules on how to assess and that this could be used to appeal any decision. He also told us that if we were ever charged NNDR then to apply for small business relief even though we are classed as private use under the planning permission.
I'm sorry that I cannot give you any useful advice other than my experience. I, like you, had been worried that I may be hit with a large bill I hadn't expected or budgeted for and was thrown by how little the assessor knew. However as their assessors have no clear guidelines for equestrian properties I would have appealed had I received a decision making me rateable. There also seems to be no logical process for deciding which properties to assess or when. We couldn't work out why they assessed us when they did as they had no information from us that the stables had been built. We had the planning permission approved in May 2013 however they turned up to assess, with no prior warning or letter, one week after the stables went up.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
If you read the thread on Horsegossip it also gives some tips on how to reduce the amount of rated buildings. I would also ask the RO to show you the relevant regulation not the guidance notes they use as they have been transposed and are different, a quick reading through of the regulations there is no mention of amount entrances.
FarmerGilies
Member
Unfortunately the wording of the act has been changed. Section 66 (1)
(1)Subject to subsections (2), (2B) and 2E below], property is domestic if
(a)it is used wholly for the purposes of living accommodation,
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance belonging to or enjoyed with property falling within paragraph (a) above,
Para (a) --- Wholly for the purposes of living accommodation -- Which, of course a stable is not
(1)Subject to subsections (2), (2B) and 2E below], property is domestic if
(a)it is used wholly for the purposes of living accommodation,
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance belonging to or enjoyed with property falling within paragraph (a) above,
Para (a) --- Wholly for the purposes of living accommodation -- Which, of course a stable is not
tiggs
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the wording of the act has been changed. Section 66 (1)
(1)Subject to subsections (2), (2B) and 2E below], property is domestic if—
(a)it is used wholly for the purposes of living accommodation,
(b)it is a yard, garden, outhouse or other appurtenance belonging to or enjoyed with property falling within paragraph (a) above,
Para (a) --- Wholly for the purposes of living accommodation -- Which, of course a stable is not
I don't read it like that, I think it says that it has to be enjoyed with property that is wholly for accommodation
Hackie
Well-Known Member
Agreed, I read that the stable etc (b) is enjoyed with your residence (a) therefore meets the criteria?
But I'm not too familiar with English law, so may be reading it incorrectly - UK property laws can be so convoluted in comparison to what I'm used to (Aus). I find it fascinating that you could be charged non-domestic rates on property you maintain for your personal use.
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FarmerGilies
Member
The Law appears contradictory. Reading Section 66(1) as you suggest does imply that the yard should be considered domestic, however elsewhere in the act there are paras that do clearly say that it is non-domestic. I have spoken today to a ratings surveyor and he also thinks its non-domestic as there are specific sections that deal with stables and equestrian facilities.
All very confusing case law.
All very confusing case law.