Raw bones - constipation

[sonjafoers]

I posted on here recently about starting my dogs on a mainly raw diet and after lots of advice I have been gradually introducing raw meats and they are now fully switched over. However I have fed chicken wings in small amounts and each time they seem to be very constipated afterwards - my smaller dog has one at a time and my big boy has 2 at a time and it has the same effect on them both. They are rottweilers weighing roughly 50kg so I don;t think I am giving them too many, in fact once they are used to them I planned to give them more wings in one meal but am not sure what to do now.

They are constipated for a day or 2 after and it seems to put them off eating during this period. They are the only bones I have tried so far and they are fine with the other meat they are getting.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

 

[KarynK]

It's probably not constipation but is what a dog should be passing naturally, it may be that they are just taking time to adjust.

My cattle dogs will eat a whole chicken carcass each in one meal or 4-5 chicken wings and they will the strain to go to the toilet, but this is what the anal gland involved for. In fact a few weks ago they chomped their way through 10 venison ribs each in a week as I had no room in the freezer and they were free!!!!

Basically the anal gland secretes a lubricant to allow the natural hard faeces of a dog on a raw natural diet to pass. You could if you were that way inclined actually use the "end product" to write with as it is like a piece of chalk If you trod in mine it would crumble and not stick to your shoe!! You might have caught the comment in Life on Mars, "You don't see white dog **** anymore" Says a lot for modern diets!


Raw diet, especially bones are very filling, which is why upping the bone content is so excellent at helping dogs to loose weight but not starving them, so it could be that they are feeling full?

You could try alternating your feeds for a while by feeding bone then the following meal offal or muscle meat. Bones are very important in the diet as the marrow contains many essential nutrients. If you havent already got them supermarket chicken wings are very soft as they are from very young birds, ones from the butcher tend to come from slower maturing birds and can be a bit harder.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Basically the anal gland secretes a lubricant to allow the natural hard faeces of a dog on a raw natural diet to pass. "

The anal glands are a scent gland. When a dog poops normally - regardless of diet -the anal glands empty from the .. ahem.. exertion of defecating, not as a precursor.

 

[camilla4]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically the anal gland secretes a lubricant to allow the natural hard faeces of a dog on a raw natural diet to pass. "

The anal glands are a scent gland. When a dog poops normally - regardless of diet -the anal glands empty from the .. ahem.. exertion of defecating, not as a precursor.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is correct and the reason that hard poo is desirable as it ensure the glands do get emptied.

Mine also gets whole chicken carcasses and wings daily and, whilst her poo definitely firmed up, she is never constipated. I agree that this is probably simply an adjustment either in the dogs' digestive systems or in OP's perception. Do the dogs actually seem to be straining for a short while or does it continue with no end product (as it were)? If they keep trying and failing to produce then that is a problem - if they simply seem to be making rather more effort than usual, then I wouldn't worry?!

 

[sonjafoers]

They are trying, straining very hard and not producing - or producing a tiny little 'nugget' the size of a malteser.

When it eventually does come, say 24 hours later, they get a few little nuggets which are almost solid followed by rather a lot of very soft pooh which seems to have backed up behind it.

Hopefully it is just the adjustment because other then things things seem to be going well.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

"That is correct and the reason that hard poo is desirable as it ensure the glands do get emptied."

I'm sorry but hard poo is undesirable in any species, so is straining.

Constipation is normally due to either a lack of fibre or water. Personally, if the constipation /straining continues I would book a trip to the vets.

 

[soloabe]

[ QUOTE ]
"That is correct and the reason that hard poo is desirable as it ensure the glands do get emptied."

I'm sorry but hard poo is undesirable in any species, so is straining.

Constipation is normally due to either a lack of fibre or water. Personally, if the constipation /straining continues I would book a trip to the vets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im sorry i think straining is bad but hard poo is not bad at all.

If you look at dogs and cats in the wild there poo is solid chalk like.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

I'm no expert of poo varients

but poo like bullets and poo like chalk, that is of a powdery consistency when crumbled - I can't believe i'm writing this - are completely different.

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]
The anal glands are a scent gland. When a dog poops normally - regardless of diet -the anal glands empty from the .. ahem.. exertion of defecating, not as a precursor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually scent is the function that has been concentrated on by research groups since that was their funding and area of interest with somewhat mixed results.. Cheryl et al (1985) note specifically that “Systematic investigations into the function(s) of anal-sac secretions have been few”.

To me the clues are all there, glands located at the end of the digestive tract where the gut mucosal lining ends emptying an oily secretion (which does not smell overly when emptied regularly) on defecation by an animal who's primary scent mechanism is urine and who's natural diet produces hard stools has more of a purpose than smell.

Further there is the situation where it has been proven that if fed on a diet more appropriate to a horse, the gland can become redundant when it does not empty as a result of defecation. Quite frequently it becomes infected and needs to be emptied manually. If its only function were scent this would not happen as the gland would empty on every defecation regardless of consistency.

 

[KarynK]

[ QUOTE ]
They are trying, straining very hard and not producing - or producing a tiny little 'nugget' the size of a malteser.

When it eventually does come, say 24 hours later, they get a few little nuggets which are almost solid followed by rather a lot of very soft pooh which seems to have backed up behind it.

[/ QUOTE ]

sfoers How are you feeding the diet, how many meals of what and when? Are you feeding the soft meal straight after the bones?

On raw diet the stools should be a lot less frequent, much less volume as the dog can actually digest most of the meal, a lot lot lot less smelly and of a firm to hard consistency, although they will soften with offal and just muscle meat meals.

Mine certainly will produce little bullets after eating chicken carcasses but having eaten a whole carcass the resulting residue as it were would be about 2-4 hard pellets about 2-3 in long. If the little beggars get at my horses food back come the steaming huge soft logs!!!!

Will do some consultation with the oracle on this and get back to you

 

[Spudlet]

Doncha just love what dog ownership does to your conversations...

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Basically the anal gland secretes a lubricant to allow the natural hard faeces of a dog on a raw natural diet to pass.

[/ QUOTE ]

The anal glands are a scent gland. When a dog poops normally - regardless of diet -the anal glands empty from the .. ahem.. exertion of defecating, not as a precursor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also don't agree with Karen K about the anal glands function. As far as I know, when they function normally, the anal glands should empty themselves <u>after</u> the faeces has passed, as one or a few drops on top of the faeces. If you look in backlight you can sometimes see with your own eyes how those drops is released through one or a few extra contractions of the anal sphincter ending the process of passing the faeces.

There would be no need for the secretion to smell that strongly if its basically function was as a lubricant, it smells strongly because it basically is a transmitter that relays information to succeeding dogs about the dog's status and - above all- as a territory marker. To only use one or a few drops in the end of the defecation process, the information is guaranteed to not be missed by the succeeding dogs, a resource-efficient way for nature to use as little as possible in order to achieve maximum effect.
Though the pressure from when harder faeces passes by the opening to the anal glands, does help the anal sphincter to empty the sacs.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The anal glands are a scent gland. When a dog poops normally - regardless of diet -the anal glands empty from the .. ahem.. exertion of defecating, not as a precursor.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

Further there is the situation where it has been proven that if fed on a diet more appropriate to a horse, the gland can become redundant when it does not empty as a result of defecation. Quite frequently it becomes infected and needs to be emptied manually. If its only function were scent this would not happen as the gland would empty on every defecation regardless of consistency.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't agree about that either, I presume that a scent that is connected to marking territory also involves the dog wanting to mark its territory.

I have had one, now late, bitch who was more towards the submissive type and she really disliked to poo on places that she viewed at as other dogs territory, peeing on other dogs territory was never a problem but pooing, she had to find a place away from the smell of other dogs. We ended up removing her anal glands after them becoming infected several times.
Even a more dominant dog, does not necessary always feel confident in the vicinity of just any other dominant dog.

As far as understand it, urine more equals saying ''I was here'' and faeces more equals saying ''This is my territory''.


House cats also have anal glands and also usually is not fed raw, yet when I asked my veterinarians, they could only remember one case when they have treated a cat with anal glands problem in their clinic and they opened their clinic 20 years ago. To me, the difference is that we take our dogs out on walks, crisscrossing through other dogs territories in a way that does not at all resemble how it would be in the wild, house cats that are allowed to go out on the other hand, have in studies been shown to rarely leave the territory they set up, which does resemble how it would be in the wild.

However I do agree with you about that hard faeces does help the anal sphincter to empty the anal glands.

 

[KarynK]

According to Andre Hebra, MD, Chief, Division of Pediatric Surgery, Medical University of South Carolina; Professor of Surgery and Pediatrics, Medical University of South Carolina

"Anal glands normally function to lubricate the anal canal"

 

[FinnishLapphund]

According to certified veterinarian Josefin Öberg, specialized in dogs and cats diseases, Swedish university of agricultural sciences university animal hospital in Ultuna, and certified veterinarian Christer Nälser, specialized in dogs and cats diseases, has his own veterinary clinic, from little Sweden

''Anal glands original function is scent and territory marking''.



I think we have to agree to disagree. Besides if you are correct, I still don't understand why there is not a big increase of indoor cats with anal gland problems.

 

[KarynK]

Hazarding a guess Cats need a much higher protein content than dogs being total carnivores naturally, so possibly it could be that they have a better quality of food generally? Like you point out that would only apply really to house cats or very Lazy loose ones as most can catch their own food to supplement. Again in favour of that argument probably someone that has a house cat might well chose a better quality food?


Its not only raw that gives harder stools as better quality foods with more appropriate ingredients will have the same effect. So I am guessing that cats get a better deal than your average dog!

At http://www.oaktreevet.co.uk/Pages/leaflets/anal%20glands.htm


they say this of cats "Cats are fortunately less bothered with anal gland problems and are mainly subject to recurrent blockage when problems occur. "

and of dogs

"There is no doubt that the smaller breeds of dogs fed on mainly soft rations are most commonly presented for anal gland problems. These dogs often pass relatively soft faeces and the glands are not squeezed by the passage of these soft motions. Changing the diet to promote a compact stool, can reduce the incidence of problems in these dogs. Dogs fed on high quality dry foods such as Eukanuba and Hill Science Plan do tend to have more regular bowel habits, passing a small but firm motion which facilitates the passive emptying of the glands as it passes through the anus."

(NB I do not personally endorse their choice of quality foods!)

Like Cheryl points out it appears that all of the research done into anal glands in canids is totally focused on scent function, no wider function and been explored to the date of the 1985 quote above, most vets add the caveat "believed" when talking of the glands function and I can find no modern research outside of scent function still, it appears that that focus stems from the influence of animals such as the skunk and has not yet shifted from the behavioural fans in the research world.

 

[camilla4]

[ QUOTE ]
"That is correct and the reason that hard poo is desirable as it ensure the glands do get emptied."

I'm sorry but hard poo is undesirable in any species, so is straining.

Constipation is normally due to either a lack of fibre or water. Personally, if the constipation /straining continues I would book a trip to the vets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems that there are two schools of thought on here re: scent v lubrication function of the anal glands. I disagree that the anal glands would empty regardless of poo consistency - they have been evolved along with dogs' original diet which would produce the harder stools found on a raw food diet. I'm afraid I'm still of the view that hard poo is good in dogs - but agree that straining certainly isn't!

 

[sonjafoers]

I didn't mean to cause a debate about anal glands on here so sorry guys - that really seems to have taken off!

KarynK - I am feeding them twice a day, roughly 250g of muscle meat each meal with the bones in addition fed at the same time.

I haven't tried offal yet but I will start introducing it.

 

[camilla4]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean to cause a debate about anal glands on here so sorry guys - that really seems to have taken off!

.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't apologise - this sort of debate is healthy and can only further knowledge for all of us!

 

[KarynK]

I wouldn't worry about it we all like a good debate!

I think that feeding the soft and bones together might be the problem, seeking advice from my sister, so waiting on an email will post tonight when I get back from disobedience training!!!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

KarynK verses FinnishLapphund

(or is it the other way around?)

As the others have said, don't worry, only because we don't agree about something, it doesn't mean we can't have a civilised debate about why we believe as we does.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Personally I doubt that there is, in general, a big quality difference between cat food and dog food or that cat owners would be more likely to buy food of better quality than dog owners, I do know that I certainly tries to buy the best food I can to both my cats and my dogs.

From what I've heard and experienced myself, cats that is allowed outdoors but is also fed by their owners, quite often choose to only eat bits and pieces here and there of what they catch or not eat the carcass at all. Though my cats are only allowed outside when we are in the summerhouse, they definitely suits that description.
Cats often can't resist to hunt but if they mainly eat what their owners provide them with, I don't think that amount of raw/natural diet as a supplement, would be enough to be seen as the reason why their anal glands keeps on working well.



To go back to dogs, if someone have a dog with anal gland problems and the problems disappear by changing to raw/BARF diet, that is great but I don't think it is as easy as only saying that if your dog gets anal gland problems, you don't feed them a high quality food.
To take my bitches as an example, I have had 7 bitches, I bought my first dog nearly 20 years ago and, as I recall it, between 18 and 19 years ago, I began buying a small locally produced brand of dog food that I also feed my current bitches with.
1 late bitch had such problems with her anal glands that we removed them, I also did empty the anal glands on another late bitch occasionally (sometimes years apart, some periods more often than that) but they never got inflamed, that equals 2 bitches with anal gland problems and 5 bitches without, or (if I've calculated it correctly) 28,5% - 71,5%.

So eating the same food brand, the majority (71,5%) of my bitches have not had any problems with their anal glands but a minority (28,5%) have had problems, does that mean that I feed my bitches a high quality dog food or a low quality dog food? If the quality of the food is the single matter that makes the anal glands either function or not function, I don't quite understand how the same food, sometimes from the same bag, could be the single cause to why the second bitch got problems one month but not the next month/months/years.

Regardless, I agree that changing food might help with anal gland problems but I don't think it is the only answer to why some dogs have anal gland problems and some don't. And to not upset sfoers any further, I will stop hijacking her/his thread now.

 

[KarynK]

Sfoers Try separating out the elements of the diet a bit more and separate the bone meal from the soft meals, feed them either end of the day. My diet is species appropriate and has a high bone content (80%)

Chicken wings and carcasses are that 80% bone and 20% meat and form the basis of the diet along with lamb ribs. They only have soft meals once or twice a week. Will send you the sheet by PM