Raw Feeders advice please - bacteria

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sonjafoers

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I've fed raw for a few years now in the form of Natures Menu frozen blocks plus a variety of offal, bones & fish. I was just in the process of switching across to Natural Instinct and have received my first order but not used it yet. My dogs have all looked great and been very healthy & happy and a few weeks ago when one was at the vet for his jabs the vet commented on what great condition he was in.

However all 3 of mine have been very poorly for 2 weeks now, they have sickness & diarrhoea and as soon as one gets better another falls ill & they seem to be passing it between them. They've been seeing the vet daily as they've been so poorly with it & the lab results have come back as campolybacta (sp?).

My vet has strongly advised me to stop the raw diet and for the last week or so they have been on Royal Canin Intestinal ( tins & dry ) on the vets advice, and they will have to remain on it until the antibiotics have finished. He has said I really should think about keeping them on a Royal Canin ( or similar ) dry diet as it's the best thing for dogs.

I don't want to do this because I want them on a raw diet, however I don't want to be cutting off my nose to spite my face and I am wondering if the diet is responsible for their current illness. Of course there's no guarantee it is but they are so very poorly I wouldn't want to go through this again.

Does anyone have any experience of this bacteria or can anyone offer me any advice please. Thank you.
 
I would be suspicious of a vet saying that RC is THE BEST food for a dog, especially if the vet is the one selling it to you.

It could be down to one dodgy chicken carcass, the same as it could be with a human. One or all of them could have picked up something dodgy when out and about (my brat scoffed a bone from a very dead sheep at the beach today).

I feed raw and I am a bit tardy about it in terms of thawing and re-freezing, feeding meat when it is high and really not washing my hands enough :o and neither the dog or I have shown any ill effects.

I'd get them settled then start on Natural Instinct.
 
There has been some viruses going around, ranging from sickness, the squitters:D, coughing, depression, reverse sneezing, alot of variety in symptoms.
I have to admit though I took all mine of raw when they all got a really bad bout of illness between them (it was probably nothing to do with it) but it concerned me enough (plus OH is a messy raw feeder) we would have dies of poisoning had I carried on:D and a friend has just had her rotti in and nearly lost him with a horrendous blood fest of vomiting and diarrhoea, her vet also questioned the raw feeding and it has scared her.
 
Thank you guys, the bacteria that's causing the problem has been confirmed as campylobacta - not sure how you spell it but it's something like that.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who has had experience of this bacteria or who can tell me anything more about it and the likliehood of it coming from their diet. Like you and your friend Cayla I'm a little jittery about putting them back onto raw once this is over even though I've not had any upsets from feeding it over the last few years.
 
Di contact the guys at natural instinct. I am sure if the problem occurred whilst on their good they will want to know. I have always found them v v helpful
 
It wasn't Natural Instinct satinbaze, I haven't started on their order yet.

I did contact them though just to chat to them about it & the lady there was very helpful so if I do continue with raw after this I'll definitely be using them.
 
if its been confirmed as campylobacter then I would be agreeing with your vet and stoping the raw food for a while until the infection is under control...and then reviewing how you are storing and serving the raw food particularly chicken. its a bug that is found to commonly cause food poisioning and chicken does tend to be a major cause....there was an outcry here in ireland a while ago as raw chicken tested was found to have dangerous levels of this bacteria on the skin.cooking kills off a hugh amount of these sort of issues so its not as big an issue in humans bar the food preparation risk. These sorts of bacteria are why most vets will not recommend a raw diet....its to much of a risk to human health if not handled carefully... I have heard of vets who are pro raw feeding recommending boiling water washes before serving raw meat like chicken wings and carcasses because then the potentially dangerous bacteria on the skin...ie campylobacter and salmonella... levels will be reduced and the risk to the dogs health and human family memebers coming in contact with feeding areas is reduced.
 
I wouldnt put them on a dry diet for life ether but I would look into the causes for this bug bing in their system and raw meat esp chicken...as campylobacter is a registered issue in the poultry flock s (salmonella seems to be more a pork issues) and contamination of food prep areas is a hugh red flag where this particular bacteria is concerned........hope they are cleared up and feeling better soon.
 
Dogs on raw tend to have a good immune system and usually bugs don't bother them. Are you feeding any sort of cereals biscuits and the like?
Their gut is designed for fast transit of food which doesn't give the bugs time to get in their system, so if you were feeding biscuits/mixers, cereal based treats, bonios etc at the same time it slows their food down, hence the bugs get time to get a hold, just a thought.
Hope they feel better soon, Oz
 
Benign bacteria build up in the gut to help the digestion of a certain food. Change the diet and the bacteria cannot cope because they are the wrong type and the result is diarrhoea. I wouldn't blame a vet for not knowing that!

All animals need a gradual change of diet if you want to avoid problems. I know one big kennel, owned by a doctor as a matter of fact, that for years fed raw beef tripe direct from an abattoir. But the doctor also fed a home made meal composed mainly of flaked maize although it was more expensive than tripe. When I asked him about this, he explained that the supply of cheap fresh tripe is always unreliable and if he ever has to go back to feeding a cereal based diet, he knows his dogs' digestive tracts will be able to cope with it because he keeps them "ticking over" by also feeding cereals.

There is no scientific proof of this that I am aware of but that could also be the explanation for coprophagia. Dogs have been around for thousands of years and don't do what they do by accident. I've discussed this with scientists and they agree that it is a logical explanation. That "disgusting habit" of a dog eating faeces is the perfectly natural instinct of not wanting to waste scarce but useful bacteria!
 
So sorry your dogs are poorly, hope they are better soon. As others have said there are some horrid bugs going about, mine had one before xmas after being at a show. Is there any way your dogs could have contracted this other than from meat?
I would be happy feeding ni, moreso than bones etc sourced elsewhere as ni are scrupulous about hygiene preparation etc
 
I would go along wuth the vet for a week after the antibi`s are finished,then re-introduce firstly with cooked meat and then back onto the original diet.Adult dogs fed raw should be well able to deal with any bacteria thrown at them
 
EAST KENT said:
I would go along wuth the vet for a week after the antibi`s are finished,then re-introduce firstly with cooked meat and then back onto the original diet.Adult dogs fed raw should be well able to deal wi and th any bacteria thrown at them
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The issue here is that no matter how healthy a dog or how quick their tract is if they ingest a set amount of this sort of bacteria they will be ill with it.

Most bacteria will not cause an issue but thats as most bacteria are not pathological damage causing organisms,we have hundreds of thousands of bacteria in out bodies,as do animals, but they are not harmful to us..or it may be the they are present in such are at amounts below the infective dose.Like Ecoli it can be present normally in the faeces and body and not be a problem but a certain strain at a certain dose and you are in trouble.

Its a amount present , the infective dose, present of a pathological bacteria that is the problem. In campylobacter that amount is quite low so it is a common cause of food poisioning.

Its the same in people. No matter how healthy your diet is if you ate the infective dose of campylobacter on your chicken it will cause food poisioning... as your bodies defences kick in and try to remove the issue by speeding up the gut transit times and vomiting.

In an immunocompromised creature camplylobacter infections can turn into septicemia and kill so it not a finding I would be taking lightly at all. It is also an infectious bug so yes it can be passed between dogs.

Its been cultured in this dog(s) so clearly is a problem and its is unlikely to be just a bug or virus at all..She said the vet has already found campylobacter present.
 
Thank you for your replies guys, Aru you have been really helpful & informative.

I haven't changed their diet at all, I'd ordered Natural Instinct which is new to them but I hadn't started using it so they were on the same diet they've been on for years. Cremedemonthe I don't feed any cereal or biscuit etc nor do they get any such treats so it wasn't that. Also I feed very little chicken in their diet as they're not huge fans although they do get chicken wings.

They have been so poorly for 13 days, starting with one dog & then 36 hours later following up with the other & then the puppy. As mentioned on here this particular bacteria is transmissible between dogs ( and also to/from humans ) so it's likely one started it & the others picked it up from him.

I have wracked my brains about this because it's really made me think about feeding raw, and as much as I want to keep them on raw I couldn't possibly put them through this again. I did have a bag of raw nuggets which were clumped together like they had been allowed to thaw & then re-freeze. I mentioned it to my supplier but nothing was really made of it & as it wasn't chicken I fed it - however this was 2-3 weeks before the illness so the vet has ruled it out as the bacteria has a 3-10 day incubation. Also the fox killed all the chickens at our yard & took some of them off. The land owner cleaned up what was left but I'm wondering if a bit was left somewhere & the dog scavenged it, he does roam free at the yard & he eats anything and everything. I really would like to think it's this rather than their diet. Of course they all eat things on the moor & at the yard and drink from puddles so it could simply be this too.

Aru I really don't want them on a dry diet although for the time being they are - at least until the antibiotics are done and then for the time it takes to do a gradual change. I'm a bit concerned about the change back to raw because it does mean they will be on both kibble & raw for a time which I know is a danger - can anyone offer any advise on how best to facilitate this change if I do decide to go back to raw?

Thanks again.
 
EAST KENT said:
I would go along wuth the vet for a week after the antibi`s are finished,then re-introduce firstly with cooked meat and then back onto the original diet.Adult dogs fed raw should be well able to deal with any bacteria thrown at them
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EASTKENT how long would you recommend I do the kibble & cooked for? Will it then be ok to do cooked meat one meal & raw for the other for a few days before the final change?
 
Aru said:
if its been confirmed as campylobacter then I would be agreeing with your vet and stoping the raw food for a while until the infection is under control...and then reviewing how you are storing and serving the raw food particularly chicken. its a bug that is found to commonly cause food poisioning and chicken does tend to be a major cause....there was an outcry here in ireland a while ago as raw chicken tested was found to have dangerous levels of this bacteria on the skin.cooking kills off a hugh amount of these sort of issues so its not as big an issue in humans bar the food preparation risk. These sorts of bacteria are why most vets will not recommend a raw diet....its to much of a risk to human health if not handled carefully... I have heard of vets who are pro raw feeding recommending boiling water washes before serving raw meat like chicken wings and carcasses because then the potentially dangerous bacteria on the skin...ie campylobacter and salmonella... levels will be reduced and the risk to the dogs health and human family memebers coming in contact with feeding areas is reduced.
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It is highly unlikely that a dog would "catch" something like campylobacter from raw food - nasties like samonella, campylobacter etc. are for dogs contracted from semi-cooked food - just like with us eating under-cooked chicken. If we ate raw chicken contaminated with salmonella, provided we were not very young, or very old, and in good health it is unlikely we would be ill. It is when chicken contaminated with salmonella is under-cooked that the trouble occurs.

Dogs are geared up to eat foodstuffs like bones that have been buried in the garden and left to rot for months or even years. They can eat raw meat that is crawling with maggots and be perfectly OK. I would virtually guarantee that the OP's dogs did not contract campylobacter from raw food, and a vet who would say such a thing is displaying an appalling level of ignorance ... unless the meat was very badly contaminated, and the dogs were very old, very young or sick ... even then, I would be cautious in blaming raw food, however badly contaminated.
 
when i got my new pup in the summer, i started her on raw and she was really ill:( Of course i was horrified but it wasnt related to the raw, it was the change and stress. I started her on cooked chicken breast and rice and got her better on that. Then I spoke to NI and they were amazing, they gave me a plan of how to change her over gradually, just starting with chicken, as offal can upset the stomach at first. Hope that helps a little.
 
If it were my dog I would let it settle completely on the dry,then cooked for a good week ,then back on quality raw ,maybe 50/50 for a week with cooked.That is being extra cautious of course.I have fed raw,and only raw for forty years now,and can honestly say that my lot seem to be able to grab anything they can find..including rotten bird corpses sometimes,with no upsets whatsoever. Mine are fed exactly as a foxhound pack,the babies however do start off on Tesco`s finest beef mince,until at six weeks or so they get a gradual change over to the usual head meat/ox tripe coarse mince.Once they are twelve weeks or so then the raw chook carcases get added.
I am a huge believer in toughening up a dog`s gut and immune system,having seen puppies of my own breeding reared on dried rubbish and consequently having tender digestions.So bad in one case that one even had an anal prolapse!! One of my own reared puppies went as a follow on and they could not stop saying how she could digest "anything".As it should be ,though vets will disagree.But then,how many litters of bull terriers have many of them reared??
Quite funny really,my old stud dog was in hospital due to an enlarged prostate,he totally refused all the usual commercial crap they offered ..until some tripe was offered..then he nearly ate the plate.sensible chap.
 
Thanks for your reply Nikki J. It's interesting that you doubt they would get it from feeding raw, or indeed from what you say from the dead chickens at they yard.

Where would you think they would get it from? Is it likely in your opinion they could have picked it up on the moors?
 
Mine have also eaten pretty much anything with no bother East Kent, not necessarily what I feed them but more what they find on the moors. They come back really smelling bad sometimes & breathe their toxic fumes all over me which has turned my stomach in the past & they think they've had a lovely snack! I think in this case if they have got the bacteria from something I've given them then they've been very unlucky.

I think adding in a small amount of cooked plus rice for a while once they're off the antibiotics is a good suggestion & I can gradually work across from there. I've looked up Natural Instinct & they do a special diet for poorly tummies so that may be a good way to gradually get them back onto raw.
 
Nikki J said:
It is highly unlikely that a dog would "catch" something like campylobacter from raw food - nasties like samonella, campylobacter etc. are for dogs contracted from semi-cooked food - just like with us eating under-cooked chicken. If we ate raw chicken contaminated with salmonella, provided we were not very young, or very old, and in good health it is unlikely we would be ill. It is when chicken contaminated with salmonella is under-cooked that the trouble occurs.

Dogs are geared up to eat foodstuffs like bones that have been buried in the garden and left to rot for months or even years. They can eat raw meat that is crawling with maggots and be perfectly OK. I would virtually guarantee that the OP's dogs did not contract campylobacter from raw food, and a vet who would say such a thing is displaying an appalling level of ignorance ... unless the meat was very badly contaminated, and the dogs were very old, very young or sick ... even then, I would be cautious in blaming raw food, however badly contaminated.
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I am a Vet and I disagree completely with you. :P

I am not ignorant to the fact that dogs have evolved as scavengers...however I will put the question to you how long do you think the lifespan of a scavenging dog is? Do you believe they were all they healthy thriving animals?

Its true that some dogs can eat all sorts of crap and be fine... but not all....there are plenty of dogs out there who will eat that decaying bone and vomit it up after....then eat the vomit and by doing so allow the bacteria another exposure to the acids of the stomach limiting the chances of them getting food poisoning later.

Dogs do catch these bugs.They do catch them less frequently than humans as they have a different digestive system and it works very well to protect them from the diet they evolved on..........
But....and this is my main point..... if they are unlucky enough to be exposed to a high enough dose they do end up ill......thats how good old microbiology works...Bacteria is designed to thrive and multiply inspite of animals protective mechanisms...there fascinating little bugs like that.

Also our food posioning choices do not have to be from undercooked food...undercooking just works well as it allows the bacteria to multiply in a preferred temperature and provide a higher infective dose when we then eat it. However given that camylobacter is also often picked up by preparing other foods like salads in areas where you have just had raw meat I disagree with you on that point as well...its the raw meat exposure that is a cause....look up the food safety sites if you dont believe me....here il even provide a link to the campylobacter site here
http://www.fsai.ie/faqs/campylobacter.html


These are not bugs we culture commonly in normal dogs at high levels.We do however frequently find them in ill dogs...much the same as they are cultured from ill people with similar signs of food poisioning! Believe it or not its a scientific finding not just vets taking against raw feeding.

We also dont catch these bugs from just eating undercooked chicken etc we could eat undercooked chicken and be fine....as long as these bacteria were not present we would be fine... because we catch these issues by getting an infective dose of a bacteria...the illness that results is often our bodies them try to protect us from.

Raw chicken is a good way to get a dose of campylobacter as there are recorded problems within the commercial chicken flocks meaning it can easily end up contaminating carcasses at slaughter.. and with this bacteria the infective dose is very very low which means it is a frequent cause of food posioning.

However what I am trying to say is that chickens are often highly contaminated with camplyobacter...so these dogs may have been exposed to contaminated meat as you put it in your point above.....contaminated meaning riddled with dangerous bacteria like camplyobacter!

If you read my next post notice I did not suggest that the O.P's dogs move onto dry or anything like that I just suggested that she may look into how she is dealing with her raw meat as this is a risk of dealing with raw meat that she has been unlucky enough to come across.

In collage we do two years of a module called veterinary public health...it basically involved learning about the impact of animals..everything from chickens to dogs on human health and it includes aspects of food safety....it was torture.... but it has not left me ignorant. :P Il try not to be to offended that you suggested so.

Has that helped me to make my point more clearly or do you still consider me an ignorant Vet?

For the record I am pro raw feeding, many dogs thrive on it :P I just like to be aware of the risks involved with it.

Unfortunalty those risks mean I could not professionally advise a client to follow it as I am expected to attempt to safegaurd human health. That and I do not want to end up getting sued.
The potential scenario of where a client posions there family preparing the dogs dinner in the same area as there own food or there young child picks up the bug from the raw chicken contaminated floor...that makes me hesitate before I would advise the diet to someone I only know in a professional capacity....
 
I grew up in an era when as farm kids we were exposed to all types of s..t,we even played in it..God forbid.None of us got any problems through this,we all caught the relatively minor childhood diseases like measles/mumps etc..now described as "dangerous"! No,we looked forward ,if anything,to taking our turn like all the rest and getting time off school.Cuts naturally were expected to produce puss,as our natural immune systems dealt with the problem.We drank from streams,on our daily travels in the company of our "gang" around the farm.No one died,no one "had allergies"..we were ,and are,TOUGH. Now,we have children prone to infection/allergies ,really they are fairly pathetic compared to us as kids,we got like that by having our immune systems challenged by all the diseases and bacteria going.
Now,if the pet food industry has it`s way,and endorsed by vets as well,exactly the same will happen with our dogs.Already we have endless "skin problems" caused by allergies,and "tummy upsets".Well,I,for one ,want my kennel of dogs to be tough,and my puppies to leave here able to cope with anything.I vaccinate against the killer diseases,and ,in a way ,I vaccinate by challenge against bacterium they will meet in life. My dogs very rarely indeed ever need a vet except for vaccinations and whelping problems,housed well .kept parasite free that is as it should be.
Incidently,one of the things I was always taught ,let your dogs gobble down fresh green horse droppings if they wish,it is positively packed with friendly gut bacteria and vitamins.My mentor always allowed this,and so do I.
The way we are going with our children and our dogs most of them will be on anti-histamine and Prednisolone just to exist.You want that?
 
EAST KENT said:
I grew up in an era when as farm kids we were exposed to all types of s..t,we even played in it..God forbid.None of us got any problems through this,we all caught the relatively minor childhood diseases like measles/mumps etc..now described as "dangerous"! No,we looked forward ,if anything,to taking our turn like all the rest and getting time off school.Cuts naturally were expected to produce puss,as our natural immune systems dealt with the problem.We drank from streams,on our daily travels in the company of our "gang" around the farm.No one died,no one "had allergies"..we were ,and are,TOUGH. Now,we have children prone to infection/allergies ,really they are fairly pathetic compared to us as kids,we got like that by having our immune systems challenged by all the diseases and bacteria going.
Now,if the pet food industry has it`s way,and endorsed by vets as well,exactly the same will happen with our dogs.Already we have endless "skin problems" caused by allergies,and "tummy upsets".Well,I,for one ,want my kennel of dogs to be tough,and my puppies to leave here able to cope with anything.I vaccinate against the killer diseases,and ,in a way ,I vaccinate by challenge against bacterium they will meet in life. My dogs very rarely indeed ever need a vet except for vaccinations and whelping problems,housed well .kept parasite free that is as it should be.
Incidently,one of the things I was always taught ,let your dogs gobble down fresh green horse droppings if they wish,it is positively packed with friendly gut bacteria and vitamins.My mentor always allowed this,and so do I.
The way we are going with our children and our dogs most of them will be on anti-histamine and Prednisolone just to exist.You want that?
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I grew up the same way and I am in my 20'd there is still hope left :P

I also spend most of my days covered in a mix and variety of dog/cat/calf/horse hair with a regular dose cow crap generally thrown in for good measure....
I have every intention of letting my future kids have the same chances and putting them outside to play rough and tumble and fully plan on corrupting my townie nieces into loving the outdoor life as well....

But I still would be relatively careful with raw meat :P

Its not a hugh risk but it is still one to take care on!Food poisoning is minus craic. Im not saying wrap the little beggers ...dogs or children up in cotton wool or in this case to change the diet in the long term.

I was just pointing out its a risk people do not consider with this diet for some reason....dogs CAN and do catch these bugs..and it can be a serious issue..
the fact so many people on here seem to disbelieve me on here is scaring me a little on that point...
so limiting exposure with a few basic steps like washing down with hot water to reduce the bacterial load, clean surfaces after raw meat etc...basic food safety steps seems like a sensible thing to me....

This is mainly chicken I am on about btw....much less worried about other cuts/species of meat....but I've been inside the chicken factories and the farms...I am unconvinced that raw commercial chicken is all that safe to eat raw straight from the package....the kill on one shift is over 70,000 chickens within 3 hours or so....there is only so much disease control and contamination control that the vets on the line can manage...
 
Every one of the dogs here,and there are a lot,are fed chicken carcase every day,in the winter they are tossed into a big drum of hot water to thaw them,in summer..mmm,well sometimes it is hard to feed them before they are distinctly ripe!
There are a few foxhound packs feeding the same way,except they get their supplies even cheaper than we do,makes me very jealous.I can honestly say there has never been any gut rot due to feeding this way,very occasionally a "bug" affects one or two,which can pass around,they are then treated with the appropriate antibiotic,in the last case five days of Cephacare and a vacuum packed meat for the period saw things right in two days.
Fact is I have watched puppies of my line reared on Nutro..mm..how pathetic and dull coated they are!It just does not do the same brilliant nutrition job that feeding raw does,my job/passion is rearing healthy fat puppies ready for the world and what it can throw at it.After over forty years of doing just this it is my belief I am doing it right.
If any of you want to see the results of my years of breeding ,and the health results of feeding as dogs should be fed ..come to Crufts!Four of them will be there and a couple of twelve year old veterans with their owners as well.
Of course we argue Aru..we see first hand the benefits,not a few lectures ...given by a commercial pet food rep..in your vet course.Young vets do come out brainwashed,poor things.It used to be that they were supposed to get summer break experience in kennels/stables etc..the real world..does this not happen any more?
My vet is in his sixties,vastly experienced,it is he I listen to.The younger ones,bless `em,are learners,and in this practice they do just that.Their more modern knowledge of treatments available are of course valuable,guess what..most of the "surgery" dogs are fed RAW.By that I mean the nurses` and vets own dogs that come to work.
One of my Border Terrier babies is off,I am tickled pink to say,to belong to one of the East Kent Hunt Masters.Also I am pleased to say she will be fed out of the hound larder,excellent!She`ll be a credit.
 
sonjafoers said:
Thanks for your reply Nikki J. It's interesting that you doubt they would get it from feeding raw, or indeed from what you say from the dead chickens at they yard.

Where would you think they would get it from? Is it likely in your opinion they could have picked it up on the moors?
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If they have not been fed semi-cooked chicken, then if I remember my science correctly, campylobacter comes from chicken **** . So maybe these dead chickens they got hold of had faecal matter on them or around them, and that may be how your dogs were infected? I should have mentioned that before, but I have only just thought of it.
 
Aru said:
I am a Vet and I disagree completely with you. :P

I am not ignorant to the fact that dogs have evolved as scavengers...however I will put the question to you how long do you think the lifespan of a scavenging dog is? Do you believe they were all they healthy thriving animals?

Its true that some dogs can eat all sorts of crap and be fine... but not all....there are plenty of dogs out there who will eat that decaying bone and vomit it up after....then eat the vomit and by doing so allow the bacteria another exposure to the acids of the stomach limiting the chances of them getting food poisoning later.

Dogs do catch these bugs.They do catch them less frequently than humans as they have a different digestive system and it works very well to protect them from the diet they evolved on..........
But....and this is my main point..... if they are unlucky enough to be exposed to a high enough dose they do end up ill......thats how good old microbiology works...Bacteria is designed to thrive and multiply inspite of animals protective mechanisms...there fascinating little bugs like that.

Also our food posioning choices do not have to be from undercooked food...undercooking just works well as it allows the bacteria to multiply in a preferred temperature and provide a higher infective dose when we then eat it. However given that camylobacter is also often picked up by preparing other foods like salads in areas where you have just had raw meat I disagree with you on that point as well...its the raw meat exposure that is a cause....look up the food safety sites if you dont believe me....here il even provide a link to the campylobacter site here
http://www.fsai.ie/faqs/campylobacter.html


These are not bugs we culture commonly in normal dogs at high levels.We do however frequently find them in ill dogs...much the same as they are cultured from ill people with similar signs of food poisioning! Believe it or not its a scientific finding not just vets taking against raw feeding.

We also dont catch these bugs from just eating undercooked chicken etc we could eat undercooked chicken and be fine....as long as these bacteria were not present we would be fine... because we catch these issues by getting an infective dose of a bacteria...the illness that results is often our bodies them try to protect us from.

Raw chicken is a good way to get a dose of campylobacter as there are recorded problems within the commercial chicken flocks meaning it can easily end up contaminating carcasses at slaughter.. and with this bacteria the infective dose is very very low which means it is a frequent cause of food posioning.

However what I am trying to say is that chickens are often highly contaminated with camplyobacter...so these dogs may have been exposed to contaminated meat as you put it in your point above.....contaminated meaning riddled with dangerous bacteria like camplyobacter!

If you read my next post notice I did not suggest that the O.P's dogs move onto dry or anything like that I just suggested that she may look into how she is dealing with her raw meat as this is a risk of dealing with raw meat that she has been unlucky enough to come across.

In collage we do two years of a module called veterinary public health...it basically involved learning about the impact of animals..everything from chickens to dogs on human health and it includes aspects of food safety....it was torture.... but it has not left me ignorant. :P Il try not to be to offended that you suggested so.

Has that helped me to make my point more clearly or do you still consider me an ignorant Vet?

For the record I am pro raw feeding, many dogs thrive on it :P I just like to be aware of the risks involved with it.

Unfortunalty those risks mean I could not professionally advise a client to follow it as I am expected to attempt to safegaurd human health. That and I do not want to end up getting sued.
The potential scenario of where a client posions there family preparing the dogs dinner in the same area as there own food or there young child picks up the bug from the raw chicken contaminated floor...that makes me hesitate before I would advise the diet to someone I only know in a professional capacity....
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Great post Aru!! The point you make about a human client being "poisoned" by their poor hygiene in the preparation of raw dog food, in particular chicken, is an excellent one.

I disagree though that in your professional capacity you would be hesitant to advise a raw diet because of the risk to human health - your duty is first and foremost to your patient, the dog. Your duty to a lesser extent would also be to advise the human owner to observe good hygiene practice, but your primary concern is for the dog - and rightly, you think that raw is best!

If some idiot owner cuts up pet quality chicken carcase, or chicken wings, or whatever, on their kitchen surfaces using the chopping boards, knives etc. used for their own food, and doesn't use a dish washer to wash everything afterwards, and use kitchen paper to clean the surfaces with something like quaternary disinfectant, then that's their problem IMO!

My husband, who is a medical scientist, and used to work in a Biochemistry lab, has a brilliant system. We have a large range cooker which is glass. He opens the packets of raw green tripe (Berriwoods) on top of the cooker, places it in the bowls. He chops up their carrots on top of the cooker on a plastic chopping board using a knife that is dishwasher-proof. We don't have any kitchen implements or tools that are non-dishwasher-proof. We have a kitchen tap that you can operate with your arm - he rinses his hands off under the hot tap, then presses the lever on the top of a bottle of tea tree soap with his arm and thoroughly washes his hands, rinses, and washes again. No dishcloths are used, only disposable paper, and all surfaces, taps, sink etc. are washed down with quaternary disinfectant, bowls are put in the dishwasher, hands are rewashed after touching each implement or bowl etc. etc.

The same thing happens when dividing up chicken wings for the freezer. We use lock and lock boxes that are dishwasher proof, and we have a separate freezer for the dog food, which is all not of human quality. Everything is kept separate from our human food. If anything has to be put into the fridge, such as some raw tripe left over or whatever, it is placed in air tight lock and lock boxes and put on the bottom shelf of the fridge.

In reality this is not the faff that it sounds - it is no more of a faff than having to fart about with sacks of kibble - kibble-fed dogs produce tons more waste than raw fed for starters - and the improved health in the end saves time and money.

I must dash now Aru, as the boys are howling for their walk, but I would like to continue to discuss this very interesting post of your's later! Have a good day xx
 
Thank you everybody, this is getting very interesting!

My dogs do eat chicken s**t and have done for years, it's one of the hazards of being at a yard where there are ( were :o ) chickens roaming around. As already said they also eat a variety of horrible things when at the yard or on the moor.

I'm going to continue to feed raw, and introduce it gradually when they are better. I think however this is a lesson learnt in terms of freezing, kitchen hygiene etc - not because I think this has caused the problem but because some of the posts on here have raised some good points to go forward with.

I'm pleased to report the beasties have been feeling better in the last 36 hours so hopefully the antibiotics are doing their job.
 
Just to confuse things - I had a bitch pup from a fellow breeder nearly 20 years ago, she had been reared on a complete puppy food (off the top of my head I cant recall which), and was a big strong pup. Within 24 hours of her being home her breeder phoned to say the remaining pups had gone down with diarrhoea and sickness. Sure enough my girl started with the same, due to her age I popped her to the vets and she was put on ABs and improved quite quickly. Breeders pups were more poorly and his vet ran tests and campylobacter was diagnosed. Within 48 hours my 18 month old son started with sickness and diarrhoea, doctor tested samples and yep, it was campylobacter. The only obvious source was that he had picked it up from the pup. Luckily both made a speedy recovery, and they were best friends until I lost her 6 years ago, but in their cases neither had eaten any raw food or even cooked chicken, so can only presume the source was something in the puppy food.
 
hygiene is a huge concern for me with raw feeding, of course I do not want my dogs to be ill but I want my family to be ill even less! Our raw is in a separate freezer out in the kennels but we do not have a sink/water out there. So, we have a big box of latex gloves and wear these to serve the food and handle bowls etc. They then go in a sealed bin next to the freezer, along with all the packaging from the meats. We use the top of the freezer for preparation and keep a disinfectant spray and kitchen roll there and it is sprayed down every day with the paper going in the same bin. We keep a large tubtrug to put dirty bowls into and these are soaked in disinfectant solution.
 
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