Raw Feeders advice please - bacteria

I've read some rubbish in this section and, if Aru is a vet, I'll eat my hat! What a load of unmitigated twaddle! Are the "collages" (sic) really qualifying vets who cannot spell "posion" (sic) these days?

There seems to be a lot of confusion between human health and animal health. Of course, all raw meat should be handled with care in consideration of human health but animal protein in any form a dog will eat it is very unlikely to harm a healthy dog.

I do not need a degree in veterinary science to say that as I have nearly 60 years experience starting out in my teens in hound kennels skinning dead stock that was so ripe the fat had turned to jelly. I've fed all species of farm livestock to hounds, both raw and cooked and often entire including intestines, venison, seal meat, salmon trimmings, rabbits, hares, sheep heads, horse meat, pig plucks, various birds and poultry, herring, raw and cooked beef and sheep tripe, plus a few dozen other things I have probably forgotten. Some of this was so ripe it almost had a second life! Until recently, I kept at least 20 of my own dogs in my own kennel and would feed about a tonne of raw beef tripe every three or four weeks.

If vets advise against a raw diet it is because they make big profits from selling commercial bagged feed. Raw meat never ever hurt a healthy dog but, as I said in my previous post, there will be a built up in the gut of benign bacteria to digest the regular diet. Change the diet and the flora of the gut is disturbed and you can expect "upset stomachs".

One last word for Aru. "You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time";).
 
My apologies that my failure to spell check lets me myself and my profession down :P
I've always been poor enough at English, it was never my strong point as you may have guessed from my atrocious grammer and spelling....

The point I was trying to get across was not that all raw food was dangerous to dogs.. I was pointing simply pointing out that this particular bug has been noted as one that causes food poisoning in humans and canines and it currently a serious issue within commercial chicken flocks.Due to that that the O.P should look at her controls for her own sake as much as for her dogs. She may be getting raw meat regularly from a location with this issue or of course the dogs may have picked it up elsewhere....... but I would still be more careful around raw chicken in the future once the problem has arisen now when raw chicken is so often found to be the cause of this issue.

I'l bow out now as clearly your time and experience working in kennels has left you with vastly more knowledge in microbiology and canine physiology than me....

Thank you for proving my point that some people feeding this diet will not take concerns about potential issues with it seriously though.
 
Aru said:
My apologies that my failure to spell check lets me myself and my profession down :P
I've always been poor enough at English, it was never my strong point as you may have guessed from my atrocious grammer and spelling....

The point I was trying to get across was not that all raw food was dangerous to dogs.. I was pointing simply pointing out that this particular bug has been noted as one that causes food poisoning in humans and canines and it currently a serious issue within commercial chicken flocks.Due to that that the O.P should look at her controls for her own sake as much as for her dogs. She may be getting raw meat regularly from a location with this issue or of course the dogs may have picked it up elsewhere....... but I would still be more careful around raw chicken in the future once the problem has arisen now when raw chicken is so often found to be the cause of this issue.

I'l bow out now as clearly your time and experience working in kennels has left you with vastly more knowledge in microbiology and canine physiology than me....

Thank you for proving my point that some people feeding this diet will not take concerns about potential issues with it seriously though.
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please carry on posting, I have found your posts very balanced and informative!!
 
How typical to advise you to feed Royal Canin *gag*

Campylobacter has been rampant in the rescue this year, haven't seen a single dog come down with it in years but this year has been incredible - at least 1 of the dogs arrived already infected couple of weeks after one of ours tested positive, so it's not quite as simplistic as the dogs passing it backwards and forwards either.
Lots of nasties flying about this year, and no, none of the rescues are fed raw.
 
Well I am glad our vet who cannot spell is bowing out,in my book people with forty years plus feeding properly do know a tad more about the subject.My point is that dogs today,fed the dry crap they are,never get the strong digestions a dog should have,like kids today they will end up far weaker and prone to disease than they should.That however would of course be a bit more of a money maker for vets!
Mine are fed out of a proper kennel kitchen,there is boiling hot water out there,all the feed tins get tossed into hot water with a dash of "dairy hypochlorite"..industrial strength bleach bunged in,the husband (a townie) has to put on rubber gloves to wash up!Me ,however,tough as an old boot due to upbringing, does`nt bother with no ill effects whatsoever.
No doubt all these products of crap food will keep lots of vets into their old age with excellent earnings off skin/digestive problems brought about entirely by the dietry advice given.They have a lot to answer for,but remember it is they who are manipulated by the huge pet food industry.
I found also the recent studies ..in humans..with regard to skin problems extremely interesting.People with Psoriasis were deliberately fed intestinal worm eggs,the body system given a different problem for it`s immune system to fight stopped fighting ITSELF and the skin ceased to be a problem.Now,I am not suggesting we all gobble up worm eggs...but apply that to dogs.Maybe our obsession with keeping them completely worm free then allows the body to start in on attacking itself?We are but mammals,after all.
Perhaps use control rather than annihilation of dog worms,feed challenging grub to the gut..and aim for a healthier other all dog?:)
 
Your dogs are more likely to have picked up campylobacter out walking than from properly handled raw food. Campylobacter has been isolated but that doesnt mean it is the cause of the upset, it may not even be a pathogenic species. However it would be sensible to stop raw food while you sort out the problem.
And yes a small worm burden is beneficial to all animals - which is why you should always weigh up the risks and benefits of all treatments.
 
And Nikki J,
Salmonella is actually most commonly seen in dogs on a raw diet (as stated at London Vet Show Nov last year - fairly up to date and speaker unsponsored by dog food) and as it is a serious health risk to dog and humans you should always consider it when sourcing, handling and preparing raw food. It would be foolish not too.
 
I know of vets who do not support the feeding of raw (and aren't profiting from the sales of bagged feeds) for the same reasons Aru has pointed out.
 
I won't feed raw chicken in boarding. I can offer alternatives but the nearest chicken farm gets Campylobacter counts off the scale.
Many raw feeders don't have vacinations for boarding anyway but those that comment on their dog's having a strong immune system usually go "oh" when I point out I sometimes have dogs in the 20s in boarding and late teens quite often. Funnily they are the ones that go a funny colour when I ask if they want rabbits fed whole, drawn, skinned or chopped :)
 
As a microbiologist I'm with Aru (the vet) although I am sure a certain amount of exposure helps (ie pretty sure I was pretty robust when doing lots of food micro).

Campylobacter contamination is a huge problem in raw chicken, so much so that when tested the suppliers would question if we got a negative result too frequently! The FSA has spent an absolute fortune trying to introduce controls on farm without success and have now moved on to funding research into interventions in the abattoir.

fwiw squeezing chicken caeca for testing is one of the fowlest (boom boom) jobs I've done ;) :D
 
fatpony said:
And Nikki J,
Salmonella is actually most commonly seen in dogs on a raw diet (as stated at London Vet Show Nov last year - fairly up to date and speaker unsponsored by dog food) and as it is a serious health risk to dog and humans you should always consider it when sourcing, handling and preparing raw food. It would be foolish not too.
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Thanx for that, it's interesting. However, my experience of feeding raw chicken which is admittedly only about 10 years is that none of my raw fed dogs have EVER been ill from salmonella. And they are not fed on human-quality free range chicken wings! They are fed on the cheapest battery wings from Tesco, or even cheaper ones from Landywoods! They are doubtless crawling with salmonella, but never once have any of our dogs been ill - including my daughters' chihuahua when he was a young pup.

It would be indeed foolish not to observe the highest handling of such raw meat though - and for this reason, our hygiene routine is exemplary. With the greatest respect to vets, mine included, I would prefer to go on personal experience rather than take every word that comes out of their mouths as gospel. I am a medical secretary, and as I often say to my doctors when they are getting a bit pompous - just remember, you only needed to score 60% in your exams - which means that potentially you always have the possibility of being wrong with your diagnoses 40% of the time!

The same applies to vets, without wishing to be disrespectful of such a noble profession. If and when I have a dog who contracts salmonella from eating raw chicken, then I may have a change of mind, but after all, salmonella poisoning will not kill large robust wolves like my 2! I have had salmonella poisoning and whilst it is very unpleasant, it is only lethal for the young, old and malnourished. Provided you don't get dehydrated, you will recover quickly.
 
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