Rawwrr.. blooming 'eck.

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Skhosu

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I am absoloutely gobsmacked by the amount of recent posts and replies to posts insinuating that any old mare be used as a broodmare, be it unrideable, or bad tempered, or presenting with issues, as well as just being 'ok' confo wise.
Maybe we're being influxed with trolls and I'm missing it? But it's no blooming wonder that so much crap is produced, breed from rubbish=get rubbish. Breed from the best, and their worst offspring is going to be much better than that of 'rubbish' .
Those worst offspring can be the happy hackers etc. that the normal riders aspire too.
Rant over.
 
I have often seen many saying well I'm breeding this mare so the offspring can be your average horse, when the less talented ('worse') offspring of good horses (temperment, confo, performance all good) will equally do this job.
 
I'd like to put in a word for the actual, old fashioned breeds, rather than generic warmbloods/sports horses. Like Cleveland Bays, Irish Draughts, Fresians, native pony breeds, etc..

Think what will happen in 50 years time in terms of inbreeding if every second horse has a Voltaire and Nimmerdor cross or similar in the fourth or fifth generation.
 
Never said anything about it being a warmblood...
If it has performance (At whichever discipline). Temperment and good conformation fine, breed away.
Each native breed (which for a point of interest I am very interested in) , ISH etc. is equally going to have these as a warmblood.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that natives/old fashioned breeds were what I was talking about??
 
I didn't. It was a generic point.

Although sometimes I think there is so much emphasis on breeding for performance and generally in dressage and showjumping that means warmbloods, and in eventing near TBs, when only a few of these horses will ever make the grade in that discipline. Not every horse is going to be a superstar eventer so we should emphasise points such as strength, soundness, ability to live out, good feet, etc as well as conformation.
 
Strength and soundness are good conformation...
Breed for perfection, and the ones that don't make the grade can make perfectly good lower level horses.
 
As mentioned in the other thread... if your mare has certain qualities you want to see in your foal, and her problem is not hereditary AND you find a stallion that can better her , I don't see a problem???

I mean... how many horses are perfect? Just imagine a world where we try breeding only with the most perfect of horses. That generally means less horses are used for breeding, meaning less foals are born. Then, for the next generation you have to again deduct all the foals of that are less than perfect. You will end up with a very small number of horses - and you won't be able to introduce "fresh blood" from anywhere. See, where I am getting, it will look like an upside-down triangle. There wouldn't be too many horses around anymore, prices would shoot through the roof, you and I would not be able to have a horse... and blooming heck - some breeds may even die out.

Not to mention that in such an environment, inbreeding (inevitable as fewer horses would be around for breeding) would cause a whole set of different problems, so that even the horses that are left will soon have "issues".

We already have a bit of control as most colts get gelded. Doing that with mares, too, would prove too much!

To emphasise this point, let's put it into human terms: I have one "perfect" human, who I will breed with another "perfect" human. They happen to be 2nd cousins. I will breed the better one of their offspring (the others got castrated) to another "perfect" human who happens to be the 1st cousin. I seriously would not want to see how the descendant looks like, nor do I want to know how healthy that person would be.

On the other hand, I have seen quite a few (!!!) people whose parents looked less than ideal (very low on conformation) but who were very different genetically. Their offspring, however, looked like a model (perfect conformation).

And if the whole world bred for temperament and rideability alone, we wouldn't have the top performing, Olympic horses.

In fact, the horsey world would not at all look any better, I think!!!

 
For me its tempermant and conformation.

At the end of the day, we need plenty of happy hackers knocking around in all shapes and sizes, we need the ones for lower level competitions, the ones for the serious amateurs and then the pro horses. So we can't be breeding all world beaters.

Just to breed from a mare who isn't classed as unsuitable to ride would be a bloody start nowadays.
 
'Performance' can be as a happy hacker, so long as it has temperment and conformation. Breeding raving looneys/crap mares to 'produce happy hackers' is rubbish, that's just an excuse to breed .
 
[ QUOTE ]
'Performance' can be as a happy hacker, so long as it has temperment and conformation. Breeding raving looneys/crap mares to 'produce happy hackers' is rubbish, that's just an excuse to breed .

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, they used to say something similar to Shutterfly's breeder (who was thought of as unridable). Now they bred his full brother to breed more horses like him!
 
Totally agree. Breeding is an inexact science. You get things like "nicks" and throwbacks which can throw the whole thing up into the air. Some female lines have a trait of letting the stallion imprint on them more than others (the ideal "blank canvas"). Some male lines do the same.

Genetic faults in humans are often there for a reason. Like sickle cell anemia protects against malaria and the cystic fibrosis allele is thought to give some protection against typhoid. The trouble comes when you get two inherited positive genes in the same person. Obviously in horses, the breeding and therefore the genetics are not quite so random, because humans control mostly what is bred, but its likely that concentrating on particular desireable traits will throw up unexpected faults and yes, could lead to inbreeding. Its often the unpredictability of breeding that throws up something good. And we need quirky horses with temperament issues to a certain extent because they often make the best competition horses - it gives them that little bit extra. eg Shutterfly, Animo, etc..

Also a lot of these temperamental problems are only problems in the wrong hands, or created by bad handling or mismanagement. The mare I was referring to is I think a nice horse kept in the wrong environment. I love riding horses that are athletic and energetic and keen like that, but she would terrify someone less experienced (or perhaps with more imagination!).

So your mare might not be totally perfect but she might prove a good outcross to a hot blooded stallion who will upgrade the foal.

All you have to do is look at the TB racehorse for the problems breeding the best to the best can bring. We are all taught the TB descended from 3 male lines, but 2 of those have died out, due to the predominance of Nearco - Northern Dancer - Danzig - Blushing Groom - Sadlers Wells. All but one of the runners in last week's Derby was descended from Coolmore Northern Dancer lines and most were 2 x 3 inbred to him, or Danzig, or even closer.

So we have less and less sound horses, bred more and more for speed and quick maturation at the expense of stamina and durability, because thats what gives the quickest return for breeders and promoters of young stallions. But no-one could argue that virtually all TB breeders try to breed the best from the best. The Norther Dancer male line is now so widespread that you can send your mare to an excellent example of it conformation wise and reasonable in terms of performance for a relative pittance. But unfortunately because thats what desireable, your mare is quite likely to have Northern Dancer as one (or more) of its great grandparents.
 
The main point of that is they are not bred for soundness but purely for performance-hence why you need three traits- temperment, conformation and performance.
 
Something that is not violent towards humans and not swinging wildly wide of the average horse temperment. Not unrideable as so many of these mares we can see are (/oh well if I can't ride her I'll breed her' is very common..)
Fresh, exuberant not an issue, but workable with is a must. On the ground and ridden.
 
I don't think I've ever come across an unrideable mare. I rode one the other day that many would describe as such and it was a sweetie, just its regime didn't suit it. I don't plan on breeding from it, but it would be silly to exclude it from breeding from when its actually a good horse with a temperament suitable for competing on. And in fact I could guess you could say its already proven before it started misbehaving - has been placed at Newcomers.

My own mare I will be breeding from next year could easily turn into a nasty horse or a "serial bucker" in the wrong hands. Yet she is the process of being graded.

I'm not disagreeing with what you (and others) say at all, just that I personally dislike horses being branded as unrideable and dangerous because of faults in the owner/rider, just as much as I abhor breeding from unsuitable mares (and stallions - thats a whole other issue as well).
 
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